Future of Crown Vic, G.Mrq, Town Car

[Bored of Pisteon]

Yeah, I stole it. Liked it way too much not to grab it.

 

Good move, I just liked the picture too much because it's the truth!

[rmc523]

Just a mild redesign would make the panther very competitive with the Chrysler (if they hold on) as a RWD alternative to a sea of FWD cars. Okay, the design is a bit dated, some of us don't feel the last 10 years have been the pinnacle of design anyhow. Most of the "outdatedness" of the panther is by design. Where is the mp3 interface. Is that really that expensive to add that to the car? Why can better transmissions be designed for RWD trucks but not the Panther? We can put rollover protection on everything else, but not the panther. The fact is, at least in my area, the biggest opponents to the demise of the Panther are Lincoln Mercury dealerships, who rely on program panthers for a lot of sales.

 

Ford has done this before. Anybody remember vehicles with names like Thunderbird (the 90's model) or Probe? These cars were left on the lot with almost no support and few upgrades for years, then dropped because they were outdated and not selling. If the last F-150 complete redesign was over a decade ago, would it sell well? I think not.

 

Ford could take the car, convert the frame to modern running gear, redesign the body panels and interior, and have a hit for a fraction of a clean sheet redesign.

 

As I've posted before (and perhaps even in this thread - I'm too lazy to look), here's an updated Crown Vic:

 

[NickF1011]

O.K. How about this chassis proposal... Put it on a Super Duty frame?

 

Why not? There's a 1989 Lincoln Town Car Limo that was custom built on one and is now on display at the President George H.W. Bush Library in Texas.

 

I wouldn't mind having some derivitive Panther-like vehicle being built off that frame.

 

Opinions?

 

Seems a bit overkill, don't you think? I'm not sure how well it would work in a production application either. Either way, you're still looking at developing an entirely new body, interior, powertrain setup, etc.

[Cocheese]

Nick, I lied to you. Seems I do know someone who bought a D3 sedan (Taurus X). When asked why, he said "price". Guess it was the cheapest car available at the dealership (excluding the Focus).

 

Anyway, I understand your point about the Panther and the full size market, but bare with me here.

 

Could it be that this market isn't doing well because of certain factors. First, the 300 and Charger aren't selling well because everyone is being told Chrysler is going belly up. Why buy a car when you don't know if the warranty will be of any use in 6 months. You could buy a Panther, but they haven't been upgraded in a decade, so they have none of the cool "toys" that come with most new cars (ie Sync). Plus, and most important, the hippies in the left wing media have used every chance they can to tell the dimwits of our society that big cars are bad for the environment, and this is what is causing Man Made Global Warming.

 

Personally I love the look of the 300 and the Charger. I wish the D3's weren't utter failures then maybe the GM could have been given that "classy" look I think the 300 has and the CV could be given that "mean, aggressive" look the Charger has. I reface of the Panther, plus maybe some acknowledgment from Ford, and getting the word out there that there vehicles get very good gas milage, then maybe there would be some demand in the market.

 

The Panther is like Jenna Fisher from the TV show The Office. She's not a head turner, but if you were playing spin the bottle and it ended up pointing at her, you wouldn't be mortified either. Problem is, if every day you saw "Pam" wearing the same outfit, the same make up, and the same hair style, you would soon rather the bottle pointed at someone else. But if she changed herself just a little bit once and a while, you be happy. Especially when you how how reliable and constant she was.

[NickF1011]

Nick, I lied to you. Seems I do know someone who bought a D3 sedan (Taurus X). When asked why, he said "price". Guess it was the cheapest car available at the dealership (excluding the Focus).

 

Anyway, I understand your point about the Panther and the full size market, but bare with me here.

 

Could it be that this market isn't doing well because of certain factors. First, the 300 and Charger aren't selling well because everyone is being told Chrysler is going belly up. Why buy a car when you don't know if the warranty will be of any use in 6 months. You could buy a Panther, but they haven't been upgraded in a decade, so they have none of the cool "toys" that come with most new cars (ie Sync). Plus, and most important, the hippies in the left wing media have used every chance they can to tell the dimwits of our society that big cars are bad for the environment, and this is what is causing Man Made Global Warming.

 

Personally I love the look of the 300 and the Charger. I wish the D3's weren't utter failures then maybe the GM could have been given that "classy" look I think the 300 has and the CV could be given that "mean, aggressive" look the Charger has. I reface of the Panther, plus maybe some acknowledgment from Ford, and getting the word out there that there vehicles get very good gas milage, then maybe there would be some demand in the market.

 

The Panther is like Jenna Fisher from the TV show The Office. She's not a head turner, but if you were playing spin the bottle and it ended up pointing at her, you wouldn't be mortified either. Problem is, if every day you saw "Pam" wearing the same outfit, the same make up, and the same hair style, you would soon rather the bottle pointed at someone else. But if she changed herself just a little bit once and a while, you be happy. Especially when you how how reliable and constant she was.

 

Only problem is, the Panthers now are more like Mary Tyler Moore circa 1965. She was an alright lookin' broad back then, but a nip here and a tuck there isn't going to make her look good today. The vehicles are simply beyond saving.

 

Go read through this thead. I don't know how many times I've said that there is a place for a fullsize RWD sedan, but I just feel it needs to start from a clean sheet. Make the platform flexible enough to be shared with several other models to keep costs down and updates regular and they could have a winner. The Panther has done its job, but the longer it sticks around, the more we are reminded that it isn't 1965 anymore.

[Cocheese]

Only problem is, the Panthers now are more like Mary Tyler Moore circa 1965. She was an alright lookin' broad back then, but a nip here and a tuck there isn't going to make her look good today. The vehicles are simply beyond saving.

 

Go read through this thead. I don't know how many times I've said that there is a place for a fullsize RWD sedan, but I just feel it needs to start from a clean sheet. Make the platform flexible enough to be shared with several other models to keep costs down and updates regular and they could have a winner. The Panther has done its job, but the longer it sticks around, the more we are reminded that it isn't 1965 anymore.

 

Yeah Nick, I know what you have said and do believe you. I didn't mean to single you out with my response. It was more or less meant for anyone who was skimming through the thread and may have missed something. I would love to see the Panthers get a brand new life. I guess when I see the pic that rmc put up, I'm bemoaned by the fact that it wouldn't have take much to keep the Panthers from reminding people it's not 1965.

[Cocheese]

Good move, I just liked the picture too much because it's the truth!

 

+1

[Bored of Pisteon]

Seems a bit overkill, don't you think? I'm not sure how well it would work in a production application either. Either way, you're still looking at developing an entirely new body, interior, powertrain setup, etc.

 

Could somebody look at the cost of doing it? Crunch some numbers and get back to us. Thanks! :reading:

[NickF1011]

Could somebody look at the cost of doing it? Crunch some numbers and get back to us. Thanks! :reading:

 

The other thing to think about is what came to me in the other Explorer thread:

 

With such diminished sales volume for the Panthers, Ford will undoubtedly be looking to build any possible replacement alongside other vehicles. I doubt any body-on-frame sedan could be flexed into another plant to take advantage of production capacity more efficiently. It surely couldn't be run on the same line with unit body vehicles, and I doubt a fullsize truck line could handle it properly either.

 

Hopefully Ford eventually comes out with a nice, flexible RWD unit body platform that can underpin everything from a Panther replacement, a Mustang, and Explorer replacement. If executed properly, I think that could finally make almost everybody happy. Unfortunately, the funds just don't exist for such a venture right now.

[Cocheese]

Unfortunately, the funds just don't exist for such a venture right now.

 

True. The D3's have sucked it all away.

[rmc523]

True. The D3's have sucked it all away.

[NickF1011]

True. The D3's have sucked it all away.

 

As they should. The D3's have far more potential to bring in volume than GRWD ever would. Not to mention D3 wasn't a clean-sheet design (being based on Volvo's P2), so the startup costs for the platform were undoubtedly far less than those of a proposed GRWD also.

 

This whole bitchfest about blaming D3 for Panther's demise is just ridiculously unfounded. Place your blame somewhere else (with Ford's management in the 1990's who abandoned it way back then) instead of those who are moving forward with more modern platforms and engineering.

Edited April 6, 2009 by NickF1011

[taxman100]

As they should. The D3's have far more potential to bring in volume than GRWD ever would. Not to mention D3 wasn't a clean-sheet design (being based on Volvo's P2), so the startup costs for the platform were undoubtedly far less than those of a proposed GRWD also.

 

This whole bitchfest about blaming D3 for Panther's demise is just ridiculously unfounded. Place your blame somewhere else (with Ford's management in the 1990's who abandoned it way back then) instead of those who are moving forward with more modern platforms and engineering.

 

I've owned a number of Panthers - and I too think Ford chose to spend the money that should have gone to the Panther on a cobbed up old Volvo platform.

 

I'd never buy one, and apparently the market is saying the same thing. When the Panther dies, Ford really doesn't sell much that interests me, unless you like rebadges and copies of Japanese cars.

 

Why buy a copy when you can buy an original with a better reputation, and better resale value?

[NickF1011]

I've owned a number of Panthers - and I too think Ford chose to spend the money that should have gone to the Panther on a cobbed up old Volvo platform.

 

I'd never buy one, and apparently the market is saying the same thing. When the Panther dies, Ford really doesn't sell much that interests me, unless you like rebadges and copies of Japanese cars.

 

Why buy a copy when you can buy an original with a better reputation, and better resale value?

 

Blame the D3 all you want, but I'd be willing to guess the Panthers would have been completely ignored if D3 existed or not. They sure did a fine job ignoring the Panthers before D3 ever existed, no?

 

And what "rebadges and copies" of Japanese cars does Ford sell? If you are referring to the Fusion... :rolleyes:

[twintornados]

People I know bought Panthers because they are roomy, comfortable and reliable.

 

Hopefully one day I will meet someone who has bought a D3 sedan and ask them why they made their purchase.

My girlfriends sister traded a Mercury Grand Marquis for a 2006 Montego and she loves it. When I asked her why she didn't get another Grand Marquis (that one was their 4th one) she told me, "I like the interior roominess of the Montego and the smaller overall size of the car."

[NickF1011]

My girlfriends sister traded a Mercury Grand Marquis for a 2006 Montego and she loves it. When I asked her why she didn't get another Grand Marquis (that one was their 4th one) she told me, "I like the interior roominess of the Montego and the smaller overall size of the car."

 

Yeah, for as large as they are externally, the Panthers have never been packaged very efficiently on the interior.

[Cocheese]

As they should. The D3's have far more potential to bring in volume than GRWD ever would. Not to mention D3 wasn't a clean-sheet design (being based on Volvo's P2), so the startup costs for the platform were undoubtedly far less than those of a proposed GRWD also.

 

This whole bitchfest about blaming D3 for Panther's demise is just ridiculously unfounded. Place your blame somewhere else (with Ford's management in the 1990's who abandoned it way back then) instead of those who are moving forward with more modern platforms and engineering.

 

Come on Nick, let us have our laughs at the expense of the D3's.

 

You are right about the potential the D3's have, and that much of Ford's future success should come from that, so they are an important vehicle. But you can't argue they haven't exactly been a phenomenal success to this point. And the point could be made if they were had come out of the gate with a little more sales, maybe, just maybe the GRWD platform would be moving forward right now, instead of continuing to re-launch the D3 sedans.

 

And finally, would you agree that Ford's attempts to boost the D3 sales by limiting Panther sales is a tad ridiculous? Shouldn't we be going after GM, Chrysler and the off shore companies for their customers, not upsetting already loyal Ford buyers?

[NickF1011]

Come on Nick, let us have our laughs at the expense of the D3's.

 

You are right about the potential the D3's have, and that much of Ford's future success should come from that, so they are an important vehicle. But you can't argue they haven't exactly been a phenomenal success to this point. And the point could be made if they were had come out of the gate with a little more sales, maybe, just maybe the GRWD platform would be moving forward right now, instead of continuing to re-launch the D3 sedans.

 

And finally, would you agree that Ford's attempts to boost the D3 sales by limiting Panther sales is a tad ridiculous? Shouldn't we be going after GM, Chrysler and the off shore companies for their customers, not upsetting already loyal Ford buyers?

 

 

Let's take this one at a time:

 

1. I doubt whether the D3's being successful or not has anything to do with whether or not the Panthers are successful.

 

2. I doubt any money spent on D3 was diverted away from any possible GRWD platform. I think gas prices, CAFE, and sales of other models in that class did far more damage to GRWD's hopes than tepid Taurus sales ever could.

 

3. Finally, I don't see any evidence that Ford attempted to boost D3 sales by limiting Panther sales. The only "evidence" of this would be the death of the retail Crown Victoria. I think the CV's retail version saw its death because it was a waste of time to continue marketing what nobody was buying in the first place. The CV would be gone retail side, regardless of what else Ford was selling at the time. People just weren't buying it. That's not D3's fault.

 

Mullaly has stated that product programs from here out need to be self-sustaining. If D3 was supposedly pulling all of this money from other programs, Mullaly would probably have ordered the entire program cancelled by now.

 

D3 is a convenient scapegoat, but realistically, it probably has absolutely nothing to do with the Panther. As I said before already: The Panther was being neglected long before D3 was even considered.

Edited April 7, 2009 by NickF1011

[matthewq4b]

Yeah, for as large as they are externally, the Panthers have never been packaged very efficiently on the interior.

 

 

Well that is not really true.

 

They are not packaged very efficiently compared to modern designs

 

They were very efficient when designed offering as much interior room as the behemoths they replaced. But 3 decades of design and development advances have surpassed their 1970's era space utilization and thick doors.

 

No vehicle that had the base engineering done in the late 1970's can be resonably compred to vehciels that had the base engineering done in the last decade.

 

No vehicle would show sales much better than the CV or GM that had not had a sheetmetal or comprehensive interior update since 1990 even the mighty F150 would be struggeling to be posting sales any better. The fact that they are even still being produced and meet current safey standards. (not just meet but do better than a lot stuff of way newer design) an still turn respectable profits is incredible.

 

The Panther chassis is most likly the best platform across the bord Ford has produced in the history of the company.

 

 

Matthew

[NickF1011]

Well that is not really true.

 

They are not packaged very efficiently compared to modern designs

 

They were very efficient when designed offering as much interior room as the behemoths they replaced. But 3 decades of design and development advances have surpassed their 1970's era space utilization and thick doors.

 

No vehicle that had the base engineering done in the late 1970's can be resonably compred to vehciels that had the base engineering done in the last decade.

 

Fair enough.

 

 

No vehicle would show sales much better than the CV or GM that had not had a sheetmetal or comprehensive interior update since 1990 even the mighty F150 would be struggeling to be posting sales any better. The fact that they are even still being produced and meet current safey standards. (not just meet but do better than a lot stuff of way newer design) an still turn respectable profits is incredible.

 

The Panther chassis is most likly the best platform across the bord Ford has produced in the history of the company.

 

 

Matthew

 

Best? I think that's debatable. I guess that depends on your criteria. Was it the most profitable over its lifespan? That's quite possible.

[matthewq4b]

Fair enough.

 

 

 

 

Best? I think that's debatable. I guess that depends on your criteria. Was it the most profitable over its lifespan? That's quite possible.

 

 

Not debateble. The platfrom was designed in an era with basicaly no crash standards is stiviable in era where if you do not walk away unscathed from a 40MPH offset impact in to a solid object is failing grade.

 

It has done from an era where the most complicated pices of kit in the vehicle was the Electronic ignition to vehicles that carry more computing power than the first moon shots and early shuttle missions.

It has outasted 3 generations of Automobiles and Trucks And has cost Ford minimal dollars to keep it meeting todays standards ad expectations.

 

No other Platform that has come from Ford can claim this.

 

As for the Whoe D3 Issue. Yes the D3 has potential. Hell any thign has potential but the true measure of things is has it lived up to the excpected potential. The D3's sadly have not.

 

And yes the D3's did take money and focus away from the panthers and that segment.

And they hve tried to take sales away from the panthers. You can not buy a CV or GM in Canada as consumer. If you want a Full size non luxery sedan From Ford you are left with the Taurus. So ya you are pigeon holed in to a D3.

 

 

The D3 Platfrom is now 6 years old and nearing the end of life span one more body restlye is baout all they are going to get off it.

 

 

If the panthers had a conprehensive update for 04 or 05 the y easily would have had the potnetial to far excell the sales the D3's generated with far lower investment.

 

 

Matthew

[NickF1011]

And yes the D3's did take money and focus away from the panthers and that segment.

 

Would love to see ANY evidence of this. What is more likely is that without the D3's, Ford would simply be leaving the fullsize segment after the Panther's demise all together.

 

And they hve tried to take sales away from the panthers. You can not buy a CV or GM in Canada as consumer. If you want a Full size non luxery sedan From Ford you are l

left with the Taurus. So ya you are pigeon holed in to a D3.

 

That's not trying to take sales away from the Panthers. That's simply trying to offer something that will bring in sales at all. The Panthers simply were not doing it. If Ford did not offer the Taurus, those consumers would be pigeon holed into buying something from the comepetition, because frankly, D3 or not, the Panthers were not about to get some huge infusion of development money.

 

As for the overall success of a platform, who's to say. I'm willing to bet a couple of F-series and Explorer platforms have come pretty close to bringing in the same amount of profit that the Panther platform has, despite not being in production for nearly as long. And then, of course, there is the mother of all Ford platforms -- the one the Model T used.

Edited April 8, 2009 by NickF1011

[matthewq4b]

Would love to see ANY evidence of this. What is more likely is that without the D3's, Ford would simply be leaving the fullsize segment after the Panther's demise all together.

 

If the Panthers had been updated instead of concetrating on the Volvo's The D3 would have never been needed.

 

 

 

 

 

That's not trying to take sales away from the Panthers. That's simply trying to offer something that will bring in sales at all. The Panthers simply were not doing it. If Ford did not offer the Taurus, those consumers would be pigeon holed into buying something from the competition, because frankly, D3 or not, the Panthers were not about to get some huge infusion of development money.

 

 

Problem is Nick that is not what happened the D3 Sedans have not brought the sales in and Panther Buyers did not move to the D3's they just went else where. Every single Former Panther owner I know including myself moved in to Yukon's and Tahoe's or the Chrysler LX cars. I also moved in to a full size SUV ( an Excursion) after owning a POS Charger and I think in year or 2 I will look at a Tahoe as well. In fact alot of former LX owners also moved to the Tahoe.

 

The CV GM had the most Loyal customers of any automobile in NA only being eclipsed by F Series owners. Most of the D3 sales have been conquest sales Not a bad thing by any means. But that could have equally been achieved with An Updated CV GM just as the LX cars did initially. But Chrysler's poor quality and quality control undid any of the gains made with them. The LX brought sales in the D3's have not. If the LX cars had not been POS"s the Panthers now very well could have already been axed. Would this have meant that sales of the D3's would have increased ? Highly doubtful. You can not push a D3 on the traditional Panther buyer this has been proven. But you could have gotten a D3 buyer in to a modern CV or GM.

 

 

The reason the cars were and are not selling is due to a body style penned in the 1980's and a base body structure space utilization dating to the late mid 1970's Nasser axed the proposed up date of the CV GM in the late 90's. The TC's development was too far along to axe.

 

This is the only reason these cars are not selling. If you do not update any vehicle for 20 years sales are going to suffer. Ford Made a mistake by bringing the D3's to market instead of updating the Panthers. The panthers have gaurenteed sales equal to the D3 sedans current sales. Any updating of the panthers would have only increased the current sales figures that currently are equal to the D3 sedans.

 

Nasser had to help justify the purchase of Volvo by saying they would underpin future Ford cars.

Because of this the panthers postion of neglect was cemented.

In all reality the purchase of Volvo has brought nothing to Ford in terms of dollars spent. And in the end will have cost them money.

 

But Nasser directed Ford away from core product and we all are now seeing the results of that.

 

 

As for the overall success of a platform, who's to say. I'm willing to bet a couple of F-series and Explorer platforms have come pretty close to bringing in the same amount of profit that the Panther platform has, despite not being in production for nearly as long.

 

 

I never mentioned profit . But remember there were many many years when the platform was seeing over 500K sales a year. In fact for several years sales were over 500K or around that mark and only really dropped off in the late late 80's when the mobile brick body style was showing it's age. With the restyle in 89 and 90/91 sales surged back up. You have 30 years of sales to reckon with and some when this segment was one of the best selling and few where the segment was the best selling. The Platform has been hugely profitable for every year of it's production. And it has out lived every successor to date.

And even now STAP is one of the most profitable Assembly plants in NA.

 

It by far has been the best platform Ford has built in modern history. And in all probability the best over all. The only one that could possibly be said had been better was the Model T for it's achievements will never be duplicated.

 

 

Matthew

Edited April 8, 2009 by matthewq4b

[NickF1011]

If the Panthers had been updated instead of concetrating on the Volvo's The D3 would have never been needed.

 

That's an entirely different statement though.

 

Problem is Nick that is not what happened the D3 Sedans have not brought the sales in and Panther Buyers did not move to the D3's they just went else where. Every single Former Panther owner I know including myself moved in to Yukon's and Tahoe's or the Chrysler LX cars. I also moved in to a full size SUV ( an Excursion) after owning a POS Charger and I think in year or 2 I will look at a Tahoe as well. In fact alot of former LX owners also moved to the Tahoe.

 

The CV GM had the most Loyal customers of any automobile in NA only being eclipsed by F Series owners. Most of the D3 sales have been conquest sales Not a bad thing by any means. But that could have equally been achieved with An Updated CV GM just as the LX cars did initially. But Chrysler's poor quality and quality control undid any of the gains made with them. The LX brought sales in the D3's have not. If the LX cars had not been POS"s the Panthers now very well could have already been axed. Would this have meant that sales of the D3's would have increased ? Highly doubtful. You can not push a D3 on the traditional Panther buyer this has been proven. But you could have gotten a D3 buyer in to a modern CV or GM.

 

 

The reason the cars were and are not selling is due to a body style penned in the 1980's and a base body structure space utilization dating to the late mid 1970's Nasser axed the proposed up date of the CV GM in the late 90's. The TC's development was too far along to axe.

 

This is the only reason these cars are not selling. If you do not update any vehicle for 20 years sales are going to suffer. Ford Made a mistake by bringing the D3's to market instead of updating the Panthers. The panthers have gaurenteed sales equal to the D3 sedans current sales. Any updating of the panthers would have only increased the current sales figures that currently are equal to the D3 sedans.

 

Nasser had to help justify the purchase of Volvo by saying they would underpin future Ford cars.

Because of this the panthers postion of neglect was cemented.

In all reality the purchase of Volvo has brought nothing to Ford in terms of dollars spent. And in the end will have cost them money.

 

But Nasser directed Ford away from core product and we all are now seeing the results of that.

 

I don't think it's a matter of "instead". One didn't depend on the other and one didn't get neglected because of the other, I don't believe. D3 was coming regardless. And the Panthers were not getting updated regardless. As for Panther buyers not gravitating toward the D3's, while that's true in many cases, I think the inverse holds true also: Many D3 buyers would not have bought a Panther.

 

So now we have come to blaming the Panther's demise on Volvo? That's a bit of a stretch, don't you think?

 

And even now STAP is one of the most profitable Assembly plants in NA.

 

Still want to see evidence of this. It's running on one shift. It can't be raking in money hand over fist like it used to do.

[matthewq4b]

That's an entirely different statement though.

 

 

No it is not. Ford decided to try to replace the Panthers with the D3's........and failed.

 

The money was spent and engineering resources on trying to build a replacement for the Panthers instead of updating them. This was done to partially justify the purchase of Volvo and try to utilize some of the assists gained in the purchases. Other wise the purchase of would have had no justification for Ford. Ford has only utilized a couple Volvo platforms one being the D3.

 

 

 

I don't think it's a matter of "instead". One didn't depend on the other and one didn't get neglected because of the other, I don't believe. D3 was coming regardless. And the Panthers were not getting updated regardless. As for Panther buyers not gravitating toward the D3's, while that's true in many cases, I think the inverse holds true also: Many D3 buyers would not have bought a Panther.

 

Well the facts say different Ford did not have the resources or the money to do both a new panther and the D3 the choice was made to go D3 so the panther was neglected. And maybe you could have not got all the D3 buyers in to an updated CV GM but you could have gotten most all of the early 250K plus yearly sales that the LX's seen with lower intial investment compared to the D3's. And really by comparison I would have rather those than the minuscule numbers the D3's brought in.

 

 

 

 

So now we have come to blaming the Panther's demise on Volvo? That's a bit of a stretch, don't you think?

 

 

Nope, No Volvo, No D3, No new platform for a new full size Ford. Ford would have had 2 options build from scratch or up date the existing Panther. Given the choice with the limited funds available at the time and limited engineering resources what would you do ?

 

The choice is obvious.

 

 

 

Still want to see evidence of this. It's running on one shift. It can't be raking in money hand over fist like it used to do.

 

 

Then YOU get access to ford internal audits and you will have all proof you need.

 

 

I have told you this and this has been told to you by multiple others.

No it is not raking it in like it used to not by a long shot.

 

But Look at the facts ALL the engineering ALL the Design and development work ALL the tooling has been long paid for. Warranty claims on the panthers are almost nil on these units (this has to be factored in to profits as well.) The only cost to producing the CV GM TC is the Overhead to keep the lights on at STAP the material in the cars and wages. The biggest cost's in building a car is not the labour or the actual content but recouping the R&D and the tooling expenses. These have been paid off decades ago for the panthers in some cases.

 

And since STAP is only on one shift there is no added labour costs in double bubble over time no shift premiums. They can afford to run one shift as well cause they are not trying to recoup R&D costs or borrowed money for the R&D or plant upgrades or construction. Every thing in STAP related to the Panthers is long paid for there are no overhead costs no financing costs they need to recover. The only costs related to the Panthers is wages the content of the vehicles and keeping the lights on. And they keep decontenting the panthers every year so the content costs have remained constant or have fallen.

 

If the Panthers are not raking in the profits then by your logic the D3's must be absolute money pits.

 

The D3's inital development costs the continuous updates the tooling costs the plant refitting costs financing costs and 50% higher warranty claims over the Panthers. With sales marginally better than the Panthers.

 

So either the Panthers are raking in Hand over fist and the D3's are also profitable or the Panthers are marginally profitable and the D3's have been a massive money pit.

 

You choose.

 

You can not have your cake and eat it too

 

You can believe what you want. And refuse to accept the facts. But those that know, know better.

 

 

Matthew