nelsonlu Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-...is/Reliability/ Reliability has never been a problem with the Panther platform. The problem is its fuel economy as currently configured. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Reliability has never been a problem with the Panther platform. The problem is its fuel economy as currently configured. Well, you build pretty much the same vehicle for the better part of two decades, I'd hope the quality is pretty high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cocheese Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Reliability has never been a problem with the Panther platform. The problem is its fuel economy as currently configured. See I find this upsetting and disturbing. First, from what I've heard from Panther owners, their numbers are quite decent, especially with highway driving (yes, I don't own one. I would like to but I need a truck these days. I am keeping an eye out for a used Marauder to have as a weekend driver). Secondly, I've never understood the thought that it is perfectly ok to except a vehicle that you have to cram yourself and your belongings into, have a terrible ride, as well as not providing ultimate safety, in order to save a few dollars at the pump. When you add in the absolute durability of the vehicle which will offset the fuel consumption, it really doesn't add up to me. I was watching Top Gear the other day and the celebrity guest they had on initially said she was ashamed because she bought a Land Rover. She said she feared she would be mocked because it was a big SUV instead of a tiny little eco car. The host, Jeremy Clarkson (Who I think is absolutely right on the money most of the times and I love how un-Politically Correct he is) pointed out to her that because she is the mother of two small children, it is her duty to provide the utmost safety for her kids. And there is nothing wrong with driving a Land Rover, because it will keep her kids safer then if they were in a Toyota. It just amazes me that people are willing to put a price on their safety and comfort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bored of Pisteon Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 See I find this upsetting and disturbing. First, from what I've heard from Panther owners, their numbers are quite decent, especially with highway driving (yes, I don't own one. I would like to but I need a truck these days. I am keeping an eye out for a used Marauder to have as a weekend driver). Secondly, I've never understood the thought that it is perfectly ok to except a vehicle that you have to cram yourself and your belongings into, have a terrible ride, as well as not providing ultimate safety, in order to save a few dollars at the pump. When you add in the absolute durability of the vehicle which will offset the fuel consumption, it really doesn't add up to me. I was watching Top Gear the other day and the celebrity guest they had on initially said she was ashamed because she bought a Land Rover. She said she feared she would be mocked because it was a big SUV instead of a tiny little eco car. The host, Jeremy Clarkson (Who I think is absolutely right on the money most of the times and I love how un-Politically Correct he is) pointed out to her that because she is the mother of two small children, it is her duty to provide the utmost safety for her kids. And there is nothing wrong with driving a Land Rover, because it will keep her kids safer then if they were in a Toyota. It just amazes me that people are willing to put a price on their safety and comfort. Well when you have a generation of idiots that were not properly engaged into driving a traditional RWD vehicle in their younger years. What do you expect? Anybody who drives these smaller shit cars in order to save that extra few bucks on gas, while spending those precious few bucks (which they don't have anyway because they continue to live off of credit) on that Starbuck's coffee, and other useless everyday consumer consumption deserves what's coming to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Well when you have a generation of idiots that were not properly engaged into driving a traditional RWD vehicle in their younger years. What do you expect? Anybody who drives these smaller shit cars in order to save that extra few bucks on gas, while spending those precious few bucks (which they don't have anyway because they continue to live off of credit) on that Starbuck's coffee, and other useless everyday consumer consumption deserves what's coming to them. Well that's just a bit of a sweeping generalization, don't you think? In rebuttal, one could call all Panther fans blue-hairs who drive down the road for 48 miles with the turn signal on without switching lanes. :shrug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nelsonlu Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 (edited) See I find this upsetting and disturbing. First, from what I've heard from Panther owners, their numbers are quite decent, especially with highway driving (yes, I don't own one. I would like to but I need a truck these days. I am keeping an eye out for a used Marauder to have as a weekend driver). Secondly, I've never understood the thought that it is perfectly ok to except a vehicle that you have to cram yourself and your belongings into, have a terrible ride, as well as not providing ultimate safety, in order to save a few dollars at the pump. When you add in the absolute durability of the vehicle which will offset the fuel consumption, it really doesn't add up to me. I was watching Top Gear the other day and the celebrity guest they had on initially said she was ashamed because she bought a Land Rover. She said she feared she would be mocked because it was a big SUV instead of a tiny little eco car. The host, Jeremy Clarkson (Who I think is absolutely right on the money most of the times and I love how un-Politically Correct he is) pointed out to her that because she is the mother of two small children, it is her duty to provide the utmost safety for her kids. And there is nothing wrong with driving a Land Rover, because it will keep her kids safer then if they were in a Toyota. It just amazes me that people are willing to put a price on their safety and comfort. First, "quite decent" is a matter of perspective. For people who are wedded to the Panther platform (my mother being one of them, and actually, I myself really like the comfort and safety of the Panther platform myself) perhaps the 16/24 fuel efficiency figure of the Mercury Grand Marquis is "quite decent" -- certainly when compared to, for example, the V8 Mountaineer's 15/21, comparing Mercurys to Mercurys. But that group is rapidly decreasing, and the main customers of the Panther platform -- fleets -- can't afford the "quite decent" 16/24 fuel efficiency of the Panther platform, particularly when gas is >$4/gallon. Second, your premise is that giving up or majorly modifying the Panther platform is "put[ting] a price on ... safety and comfort." That is a false premise. Is there any reason to believe that the D3 platform (one example being the outgoing Mercury Sable -- again, comparing Mercurys to Mercurys -- at 18/28 certainly not a gas sipper, but certainly more efficient than the Panthers) -- which, obviously, has its own faults -- is any less safe than the Panther platform? Or that it is substantially less comfortable (or, if it is, that it can't be made to be substantially as comfortable as the Panther platform)? In particular, the D3 platform cars incorporate many new safety and comfort technologies that are not currently available in the Panther platform. Perhaps it's just a matter of Ford not making the investment to put them into the Panthers. Perhaps it's that there is no way to put them into the Panthers without further making them even more inefficient. A 16/24 Panther might still be "quite decent." A hypothetical 12/20 Panther is not "quite decent," assuming that these technologies would saddle the Panther sufficiently to take it down that direction. Your comparison here creates a dichotomy of "fuel efficiency vs. comfort and safety." I think the dichotomy is a false one. Last summer, my mother (who is on her sixth Mercury Grand Marquis) was willing to consider giving it up and going to an MKZ herself. (She dropped the idea after the gas prices began to drop; I myself would have been far less comfortable having her, safety-wise, in any car that's smaller than the MKZ, but I wouldn't have minded her going to an MKZ, and certainly I'd have no reservations at all safety-wise had she decided to go for an MKS/Taurus/Sable.) Are there compromises made in doing so? Certainly. But certainly implying that the only choices are the Panther and the Smart fortwo is a misleading implication. The Panthers, whether it is Ford's fault for not updating it or not, are by this point out-of-date when put side-by-side with the D3s. If anything, I'd expect the current D3s to be safer, overall, than the Panthers. (And that's not to mention that, in your example, the choices were between a "Land Rover" and a "Toyota." Is there any reason to believe that the woman and her children would be any less safe in a Toyota Highlander Hybrid, for example?) Edited March 23, 2009 by nelsonlu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donzuchowski Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 i want a 77 town car painted like the general lee and then a 92 towncar painted union colors and called general sherman and a 2009 painted like the swiss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIAMI-DADE Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 See I find this upsetting and disturbing. First, from what I've heard from Panther owners, their numbers are quite decent, especially with highway driving (yes, I don't own one. I would like to but I need a truck these days. I am keeping an eye out for a used Marauder to have as a weekend driver). Secondly, I've never understood the thought that it is perfectly ok to except a vehicle that you have to cram yourself and your belongings into, have a terrible ride, as well as not providing ultimate safety, in order to save a few dollars at the pump. When you add in the absolute durability of the vehicle which will offset the fuel consumption, it really doesn't add up to me. I was watching Top Gear the other day and the celebrity guest they had on initially said she was ashamed because she bought a Land Rover. She said she feared she would be mocked because it was a big SUV instead of a tiny little eco car. The host, Jeremy Clarkson (Who I think is absolutely right on the money most of the times and I love how un-Politically Correct he is) pointed out to her that because she is the mother of two small children, it is her duty to provide the utmost safety for her kids. And there is nothing wrong with driving a Land Rover, because it will keep her kids safer then if they were in a Toyota. just amazes me that people are willing to put a price on their safety and comfort. We have 3 Panthers in our family. I drive from Miami to NYC 2x times a year. I average 26 MPG on the highway. Thats with the A/C on all the time as I never ride with the windows open. I think thats really good mileage for a car that size. I had a 99 C.V. with over 200K miles on it and that one got the same mileage. All are other Panthers get the same good highway miliage. Locally its around 17 but any car doing nothing but stop and go driving [except a hybrid] won't do well. As far a bluehairs driving Panthers I have never seen so may young people driving Panthers like I do down here in the Fort Lauderdale-Miami area and they are not all used Interseptors though some are. I see tons Panthers in Miami Beach all the time. I always get over 200K miles on my Panthers with mostly just general maintenance. When the Panther line comes to halt in 2011[or whenever it does] it will be a very sad day for sure. The Broward Sheriff bought several hunderd Hemi Chargers as their plan was to change their entire fleet of 1800 C.V's to Chargers. What they found out was when the Charger hits the 20K miles mark they start having a number of issues. So for now they went back to the C.V. Long live the Crown Victoria,Grand Marquis and Town Car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 As far a bluehairs driving Panthers I have never seen so may young people driving Panthers like I do down here in the Fort Lauderdale-Miami area and they are not all used Interseptors though some are. I see tons Panthers in Miami Beach all the time. The Broward Sheriff bought several hunderd Hemi Chargers as their plan was to change their entire fleet of 1800 C.V's to Chargers. What they found out was when the Charger hits the 20K miles mark they start having a number of issues. So for now they went back to the C.V. Long live the Crown Victoria,Grand Marquis and Town Car. A large amount of those "young people" put giant 22's + on the Panthers though, I'm sure you know what I mean... Did they get rid of that idea....I thought so since I"m seeing new Crown Vics (they redid the emblem/script on the doors). I know a (cop) neighbor of mine had an undercover 300 for a short time, but he recently got an undercover Impala. When I drove by my local dealer's "get-ready" lot yesterday, there was a boatload (about 10 or so maybe, but usually there's none) of new Crown Vics waiting for delivery (I assume they would've been on their way to get police stripes/equipment put in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIAMI-DADE Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 A large amount of those "young people" put giant 22's + on the Panthers though, I'm sure you know what I mean... LOL I just saw 2 white [98-02] C.V.'s on Collins Ave with those 22's on them tonight.. Yes I see them in Miami Beach with those 22's all the time. Every once in awhile I will see one in the City of Miami or in Broward. They also re-do the sound system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 LOL I just saw 2 white [98-02] C.V.'s on Collins Ave with those 22's on them tonight.. Yes I see them in Miami Beach with those 22's all the time. Every once in awhile I will see one in the City of Miami or in Broward. They also re-do the sound system. Yup, that's them.....I see them all the time....both CVs and GMs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
judge Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 Ford is being run by idiots. To take a car (CV/GM) that has had customer loyality for 30 years and let it go down the toilet is beyond belief. With any improvments, and just a little advertising, these cars could sell well for years to come. Are they the king of gas mileage, probably not. However, a lot of buyers DO NOT CARE - if you want mileage get a VW diesel. I'm on my 3rd Panther, and if they stick around, I will buy another one soon. I would pay extra for the 6 speed trans & 350HP, HD suspension, positraction, dual exhaust. Whatever the cost, I'm willing to pay it. Wake up Ford. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nelsonlu Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 Ford is being run by idiots. To take a car (CV/GM) that has had customer loyality for 30 years and let it go down the toilet is beyond belief. With any improvments, and just a little advertising, these cars could sell well for years to come. Are they the king of gas mileage, probably not. However, a lot of buyers DO NOT CARE - if you want mileage get a VW diesel. I'm on my 3rd Panther, and if they stick around, I will buy another one soon. I would pay extra for the 6 speed trans & 350HP, HD suspension, positraction, dual exhaust. Whatever the cost, I'm willing to pay it. Wake up Ford. Ford would be indeed run by idiots if you are the only customer that they have to satisfy. But you are not, are you? In particular, the CAFE standards are eventually going to force the retirement of the Panther platform no matter how many people want them (and, again, the sales plummeted when gas prices went up -- and they will again) unless the Panther platform can be made more fuel efficient. The only way I can see it is if the EcoBoost V6 can fit into the Panther platform. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 I would pay extra for the 6 speed trans & 350HP, HD suspension, positraction, dual exhaust. Whatever the cost, I'm willing to pay it. You're the only one. People buy Panthers mainly for one reason: They can be had CHEAP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bored of Pisteon Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 You're the only one. People buy Panthers mainly for one reason: They can be had CHEAP. Of course! Now would be a good time to get into a new or used one. If you want to save some $$$ long term. While having the comfort and long term reliability and quality behind them. This is the time to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Of course! Now would be a good time to get into a new or used one. If you want to save some $$$ long term. While having the comfort and long term reliability and quality behind them. This is the time to do it. See, even all of the benefits of owning one don't outweigh the fact that it looks like it was designed in the 1980's. Unfortunate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bored of Pisteon Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 See, even all of the benefits of owning one don't outweigh the fact that it looks like it was designed in the 1980's. Unfortunate. Out of the panthers, I think the Town Car has evolved a lot more because the current look and styling was designed in the late 90's! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Out of the panthers, I think the Town Car has evolved a lot more because the current look and styling was designed in the late 90's! Unfortunate though that they didn't use the opportunity when moving it from Wixom to St. Thomas to actually bring it into the '00's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cocheese Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 You're the only one. People buy Panthers mainly for one reason: They can be had CHEAP. People I know bought Panthers because they are roomy, comfortable and reliable. Hopefully one day I will meet someone who has bought a D3 sedan and ask them why they made their purchase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bored of Pisteon Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 People I know bought Panthers because they are roomy, comfortable and reliable. Hopefully one day I will meet someone who has bought a D3 sedan and ask them why they made their purchase. Hey, I like your avatar. I wonder where you got that from... The Obama thread? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cocheese Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Hey, I like your avatar. I wonder where you got that from... The Obama thread? Yeah, I stole it. Liked it way too much not to grab it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WC-MAN Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Just a mild redesign would make the panther very competitive with the Chrysler (if they hold on) as a RWD alternative to a sea of FWD cars. Okay, the design is a bit dated, some of us don't feel the last 10 years have been the pinnacle of design anyhow. Most of the "outdatedness" of the panther is by design. Where is the mp3 interface. Is that really that expensive to add that to the car? Why can better transmissions be designed for RWD trucks but not the Panther? We can put rollover protection on everything else, but not the panther. The fact is, at least in my area, the biggest opponents to the demise of the Panther are Lincoln Mercury dealerships, who rely on program panthers for a lot of sales. Ford has done this before. Anybody remember vehicles with names like Thunderbird (the 90's model) or Probe? These cars were left on the lot with almost no support and few upgrades for years, then dropped because they were outdated and not selling. If the last F-150 complete redesign was over a decade ago, would it sell well? I think not. Ford could take the car, convert the frame to modern running gear, redesign the body panels and interior, and have a hit for a fraction of a clean sheet redesign. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Ford could take the car, convert the frame to modern running gear, redesign the body panels and interior, and have a hit for a fraction of a clean sheet redesign. What you say makes too much sense. You will be flammed for being out of touch blah blah. My 07 Sport turned 80,000 trouble free miles last week. The trip odometer is registering 23.5 mpg this morning. I scratch my head. we are not talking about huge sums in the grand scheme of things. How many people know that this big boat gets that kind of mileage with the attendant durability and safety? Not many. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 (edited) Ford could take the car, convert the frame to modern running gear, redesign the body panels and interior, and have a hit for a fraction of a clean sheet redesign. What other large non-luxury RWD cars on the market lead you to believe that would work? Pontiac G8? Chrysler 300? Dodge Charger? Have you seen their sales lately? Even new sheet metal isn't going to raise this dinosaur from the dead. What you are proposing is basically a whole new car anyway. You'd end up with a clean sheet redesign by the time you got to something that was even worth bothering with. It's not like Ford could make an S-class Mercedes out of the Panther. It just doesn't have it in its DNA. If you want to change everything needed to bring it up to snuff with the modern cream-of-the-crop, it's going to need a full-on redesign. Basically all you are suggesting they keep is the frame as it is. That's the cheap part of the equation. I've got nothing against an all-new RWD platform, but it needs to be a lot more flexible than the Panther chassis if it's going to survive. What can the Panther unpin? Large sedans and station wagons. That's it. That simply isn't a big enough market anymore to justify a unique platform in the long run. If they develop a new platform that can underpin a wide array of differing-length wheelbase sedans, a coupe, and perhaps a couple of crossovers, then it would be a much easier pill to swallow. Edited March 31, 2009 by NickF1011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bored of Pisteon Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 What other large non-luxury RWD cars on the market lead you to believe that would work? Pontiac G8? Chrysler 300? Dodge Charger? Have you seen their sales lately? Even new sheet metal isn't going to raise this dinosaur from the dead. What you are proposing is basically a whole new car anyway. You'd end up with a clean sheet redesign by the time you got to something that was even worth bothering with. It's not like Ford could make an S-class Mercedes out of the Panther. It just doesn't have it in its DNA. If you want to change everything needed to bring it up to snuff with the modern cream-of-the-crop, it's going to need a full-on redesign. Basically all you are suggesting they keep is the frame as it is. That's the cheap part of the equation. I've got nothing against an all-new RWD platform, but it needs to be a lot more flexible than the Panther chassis if it's going to survive. What can the Panther unpin? Large sedans and station wagons. That's it. That simply isn't a big enough market anymore to justify a unique platform in the long run. If they develop a new platform that can underpin a wide array of differing-length wheelbase sedans, a coupe, and perhaps a couple of crossovers, then it would be a much easier pill to swallow. O.K. How about this chassis proposal... Put it on a Super Duty frame? Why not? There's a 1989 Lincoln Town Car Limo that was custom built on one and is now on display at the President George H.W. Bush Library in Texas. I wouldn't mind having some derivitive Panther-like vehicle being built off that frame. Opinions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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