Future of Crown Vic, G.Mrq, Town Car

[Topgun]

Ah yes. It's all a conspiracy!

 

C-O-N-.....spiracy!!!

Ok Nick....give it up now.

[armadamaster]

On the contrary, I don't think you understand the economics of it all.

I am not bashing the car at all, I am just saying that there is noway a reasonable company would invest in a platform that dates back to the 70s. The similarities between the Genisis and any of the Panthers are few, mainly they are just both rwd and that would be the extent of their similarities. In all honesty, do you think that it is a smart business case for FMC to keep investing in a platform from the 70s? Is there other companies that invest in a platform that are that old? Nope there is not. Ford is moving on and I think it is time you stop living in the 20th century and come join the rest of us in the 21st century where there are no other body-on-frame sedans. All your complaining means nothing at this point, FMC has made a decision and is not looking back, no matter how loud you complain about the demise of the Panthers, it just isn't going to bring them back.

 

Guess you've never heard of the F-150, the D150, the Wrangler, hell the current Wimpala is old enough to buy firearms, but please enthrall us some more with the "ancient platform" argument...

 

The Panthers got a substantial undercarriage improvement in 2003, what needed to happen and did not was a above ground facelift and updating, and God forbid some advertising. Instead we got the D3 that's had more facelifts in five years than Joan Rivers and still isn't selling. The Panthers do not need groundbreaking tech and investment folks, it's most parts bin stuff. Not to mention a commercial or two. The last Panther I saw in an auto advertisement was in a Honda Accord commercial five years ago for Pete's sake!

[nelsonlu]

I am still not hearing a single word from anyone as to how the Panther platform cars can be made more fuel efficient. Until and unless it can, there is no reasonable way for Ford to continue producing them in the future.

[twintornados]

I am still not hearing a single word from anyone as to how the Panther platform cars can be made more fuel efficient. Until and unless it can, there is no reasonable way for Ford to continue producing them in the future.

Please do not confuse me as a member of the Panther Mafia, but....several things could be done to make Panther more fuel efficient. Updated drive-trains including either a hybrid option or a hydro launch assist setup. More liberal use of lighter weight components....just a few suggestions...but most likely...it will not come to pass....as it sits, Panther is doomed.

[Bored of Pisteon]

I am still not hearing a single word from anyone as to how the Panther platform cars can be made more fuel efficient. Until and unless it can, there is no reasonable way for Ford to continue producing them in the future.

 

Oh, I did forget to mention that I still get about 27 MPG on that 404,000 mile 2001 Lincoln Town Car. :shades: :shades: :shades:

[NickF1011]

Guess you've never heard of the F-150, the D150, the Wrangler, hell the current Wimpala is old enough to buy firearms, but please enthrall us some more with the "ancient platform" argument...

 

The F-150 (What is a D150??) and Wrangler aren't riding on the same platform they were using 20 years ago. The Impala is close, but really, do you want to emulate THAT thing?? :lol:

[stpatrick90]

If you check some facts you will know that the F-150 and Wrangler both ride on fairly new platforms (a mild understatement). The Impala maybe have an old platform, and if you haven't noticed it isn't a very competitive car today either.

 

LET THE PANTHER GO! FMC HAS LET THE PLATFORM GO! THE PLATFORM HAS LIVED A RESPECTABLE LIFE, LET IT GO IN PEACE!! IF YOU DON'T GET OVER THIS FACT YOU WILL BE STUCK COMPLAINING ABOUT THIS FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE. STOP LIVING IN YOUR LIFE IN THE HYPOTHETICAL WORLD BECAUSE THIS IS REALITY!!!

[taxman100]

Ford already has the 4.6 liter 3 valve with the 6 speed auto in the parts bin. It's not like F-150 sales are tearing up the charts, so they could, if they chose, offer that drivetrain in at least the Town Car. The fact they chose not to suggests there is no one in the company whose career depends on the success of any of the Panther vehicles.

 

Clearly someone's career depends on the success of the D-3, and they will continue to spend a lot of time, effort, and money on that platform, regardless of the results.

 

The Panther is really Ford's only unique product, which is probably what scares Ford management - in most corporations, thinking outside the box is not encouraged.

 

I know people who won't buy GM since they dropped the B-body. It will be the same for the Panther - there will be loyal Ford buyers who will not buy another Ford once the Panther is dropped.

[rscalzo]

I don't know if those upgrades would serve the fleet community well. After all, the vehicle's sales are mostly made up of fleet users. I don't see how making the car out of lighter weight components is going to win any takers.

[NickF1011]

I know people who won't buy GM since they dropped the B-body. It will be the same for the Panther - there will be loyal Ford buyers who will not buy another Ford once the Panther is dropped.

 

Are those people never going to buy another new car again then? It's not like they can go to Toyota or Honda and pick up a body-on-frame RWD sedan from them instead. And it's not like Panther sales suddenly exploded when GM cancelled the B-body.

Edited April 14, 2009 by NickF1011

[Cocheese]

The last Panther I saw in an auto advertisement was in a Honda Accord commercial five years ago for Pete's sake!

 

You should move up here Armada. The Crown Vic has been in lots of commercials. Commercials for other manufactures that is. I know VW was one. Hyundai was another. Evryone seemed to want to put a Panther in their commercials except for Ford.

 

And of course anytime there is a commercial filmed in NYC, all you ever see is rows and rows of CV's.

 

I am still not hearing a single word from anyone as to how the Panther platform cars can be made more fuel efficient. Until and unless it can, there is no reasonable way for Ford to continue producing them in the future.

 

Don't remember hearing anyone ask that question. But since you have, how about the V6 ecoboost. The 6 speed tranny. Hybrid options. Plenty of things could be done that I thought were common sense therefore didn't need to be mentioned. But as we've heard from Panther owners, they already get decent milage. I don't hear anyone complaining about the milage on the F-150's. Why? The Panther is a big car. You're not going to get the milage you get out of a Focus. But for me, I don't care. I'l pay the extra money to have a comfortable ride that is reliable and will keep me safe in a collision. I'm not willing to put a price on my comfort and heath.

 

I don't know if those upgrades would serve the fleet community well. After all, the vehicle's sales are mostly made up of fleet users. I don't see how making the car out of lighter weight components is going to win any takers.

 

Now they are. Which is the point we've been trying to make. Had these things been done earlier then maybe the car wouldn't have been left on the branch to die.

 

But seriously, if the car still delivers the reliability and durability it always has, and is lighter, why wouldn't the fleet users want it?

 

First I don't see the D3 as a complete failure. The Panthers got 30 years to gain success, at least give the D3 a last chance. The new Taurus is impressive to say the least. The Flex while not for everyone, is undeniably nice, granted it was launched during the worse time possible. The new Explorer is looking to be an awesome vehicle. The MKS is a good car in its own right, especially now that it is getting Ecoboost. The new MKT is maybe not such a good looker, but I will save judgment on that one until I get to see it in person. Sure I don't expect many of you to like these cars at all, it is to be expected with your extreme love for the Panthers, but try to find it somewhere within yourselves to give them a chance because as much as you like it or not, they are here to stay and the Panthers are out.

 

There is noway a rwd car would stay BOF. There are no other cars that are BOF for a reason, so why would you insist on FMC making one? That and there would be no sharing with a truck or suv anymore, the Explorer is already going D3 and the F-150 and Expedition are already on a very similar platform so I think they have enough volume to justify themselves. A BOF rwd sedan just wouldn't be competitive in today's market.

 

I don't want to burst anyone's pipedream but I feel I am talking as close to reality as possible.

 

The D3's have had more face lifts in their life then the Panther has in 30 years. Not to mention FoMoCo has tried everything to get them out the door. I don't ever recall the Panther's getting that kind of posh treatment. I will agree that the life span of the D3 isn't over, and with the time and money spent on it, it won't be over for a while. So there is time. But to this point, for being the flagship sedan of the company, the D3's are failing.

 

The new Taurus looks good, but it's not out yet so we can't comment on it or know how well it will do. But the previous generations were so terrible, was it even possible to sink any lower? My girlfriend finally cooked something that wasn't burnt to a crisp on the outside, while stone cold on the inside. But I'm not willing to call her a culinary expert just yet.

 

I actually love the look of the MKS, and had my Grandfather almost convinced to buy one. Then we realized they were FWD V6's, and he went and bought a CTS instead. I don't blame him.

 

The Taurus X is stupid and ugly.

 

I do like the D3 SUV's. But to me they sit in a different category from the sedans (BTW, if the new Explorer looks like what I've seen and is based of what I've heard it will be based off, then I'll be buying an Expedition)

 

I doubt anyone here actually believes the Panther will be around for another 30 years, so please stop implying that. What we want is for the old girl to be shown some dignity in her twilight years and for Ford to come up with a replacement for her that just as grand. It would also be nice if some of the D3 nuthuggers around here gave some respect to the Panther, because if not for her, Ford wouldn't have had the cash to keep trying to make the D3's interesting.

[MIAMI-DADE]

But seriously, if the car still delivers the reliability and durability it always has, and is lighter, why wouldn't the fleet users want it?

 

I doubt anyone here actually believes the Panther will be around for another 30 years, so please stop implying that. What we want is for the old girl to be shown some dignity in her twilight years and for Ford to come up with a replacement for her that just as grand. It would also be nice if some of the D3 nuthuggers around here gave some respect to the Panther, because if not for her, Ford wouldn't have had the cash to keep trying to make the D3's interesting.

 

I belong to a heath club here in South Florida and allot of cops go there.. They all said they hope Ford comes up with a decent patrol car by 2012 when the death of the C.V. comes.. If not they said they will be forced into the Impalas which they do not like...

Edited April 14, 2009 by MIAMI-DADE

[NickF1011]

I doubt anyone here actually believes the Panther will be around for another 30 years, so please stop implying that. What we want is for the old girl to be shown some dignity in her twilight years and for Ford to come up with a replacement for her that just as grand. It would also be nice if some of the D3 nuthuggers around here gave some respect to the Panther, because if not for her, Ford wouldn't have had the cash to keep trying to make the D3's interesting.

 

Why is everyone who demands Ford get rid of its outdated platforms a "D3 nuthugger"? The only D3's I particularly like at all are the Flex and '10 Taurus. The rest of them are dull and uninspired as far as I'm concerned, or just wacky looking like the MKT.

 

Yes, I want a replacement for the Panthers. I think that's what we all ultimately want. But really, the only dignified ending to the Panther's life at this point is to just put it out of its misery. Ford sure isn't going to invest anything more in it. And please, please, please Ford, if you come out with a new RWD sedan, change the name. Crown Victoria sounds like something out of the 1800's.

[nelsonlu]

Don't remember hearing anyone ask that question [about fuel efficiency]. But since you have, how about the V6 ecoboost. The 6 speed tranny. Hybrid options. Plenty of things could be done that I thought were common sense therefore didn't need to be mentioned. But as we've heard from Panther owners, they already get decent milage. I don't hear anyone complaining about the milage on the F-150's. Why? The Panther is a big car. You're not going to get the milage you get out of a Focus. But for me, I don't care. I'l pay the extra money to have a comfortable ride that is reliable and will keep me safe in a collision. I'm not willing to put a price on my comfort and heath.

 

"But as we've heard from Panther owners, they already get decent [mileage]." Well, no. There's the claim by one person that he's getting 27 MPG on the highway from a Panther, I think, which is, frankly, unbelievable, I think. (That's the same feeling that I had toward a colleague who claimed that she's getting 35 MPG in her V6 Honda Accord on the highway. In addition, even if they were not unbelievable and are achievable by hypermiling techniques, what is the point of hypermiling a Panther? And the same person, using the same techniques, would get a lot higher mileage in a Sable, anyway.) What do you think was the reason why the Grand Marquises' and the Town Cars' retail sales plummeted last summer, even before the full economic slowdown hit, and that an even bigger hit went into the Crown Victoria's fleet sales? The view that Panthers "get decent mileage" certainly comports with neither public perception nor reality. Again, comparing Mercury to Mercury, the EPA has the 2009 Grand Marquis getting 16 in the city and 24 on the highway, and the 2009 Sable getting 18/28. That is a fairly large difference.

 

You believe that the Ecoboost V6 will fit in the Panther. I think that it's likely that it will fit in the Panther -- but when I posed the question a few weeks ago, nobody, including anyone in the know here who works for Ford, answered in the positive as to whether it can be done or not. Certainly, I think that is the only way that the Panther platform can be saved. (I seriously doubt that there is a way to design a hybrid Panther -- while I am not at all an engine/powertrain person, given how the Panther is structured, and given that I am not aware of any car company designing a RWD true hybrid -- the Mercedes "mild hybrids" don't count, in my opinion -- I think it can't be done.) But are you sure that most of the small segment of Panther buyers which persists would be willing to trust the Ecoboost V6 rather than a V8, let alone a hybrid powertrain? Your point has been that Panther buyers trust it because of the history of reliability. A hypothetical Ecoboost V6 Panther would be viewed as a completely new design that won't be trusted, in my opinion, even if it should be.

 

And your repeated "I don't want a Focus because of safety and comfort" claim is a red herring. Given that your attacks are against D3s, the comparison should be to D3s, not to C170s or C1s, whichever Focus you were referring to. It would be as much of a red herring as, "The Smart fortwo is unsafe. Therefore, the S-class, also made by Mercedes-Benz, must be also unsafe!" Are you claiming that D3s are substantially less comfortable or substantially less safe than the Panthers? (Certainly my mother, who is herself a big Panther fan, having had six Grand Marquises, isn't having any complaints about the comfort level of the CD3 Fusion Hybrid that I just got, so far. No, I have not owned a D3 car, nor do I plan to -- a major reason I didn't go for the Taurus/Sable was because it won't fit in the garage with a Grand Marquis -- but I certainly can't believe that they would be less comfortable or safe than the CD3 Fusion.)

 

In any case, Ford can't make its product decisions based on what you want unless the market conditions are such that your view is shared by many people. I think the market has shown that it is not. Moreover, even if market conditions favor the continued survival of the Panther, regulations won't, without a major fuel efficiency improvement. Even if, for example, Ford could produce an equivalent of the Bentley Arnage (10 MPG in the city, 14 on the highway) at the price of a D3, it cannot afford to offer one so because of the mileage issue. The situation is not quite as extreme with the Panther, but eventually that's still what the problem comes down to.

[NickF1011]

nelsonlu,

 

I'm sure the fuel economy numbers could be vastly improved on the Panthers, but the question is why would Ford bother? They are basically gone from the retail market, so who would they really be counting on to pay off the investment for the new-and-improved version? Fleet customers who only buy them now because they can get them at a huge discount?

 

The Panther has the unique problem of being cursed by its own success. It has done so well without being changed that now it can't be changed without distancing itself from the very things that made it successful in the first place. The police departments don't want them susbtantially updated because none of their equipment would fit a redesigned model. Other fleets don't want them significantly upgraded because it would raise the price per unit too much.

[Bored of Pisteon]

No, perception being feed by a deceitful news media is what is driving buyers away from Panthers.When you drive a vehicle on flat terrain going 60mph with the cruise control on. You will get great gas mileage. In this economy, why wouldn't anyone look for long term value when buying a new car? What is the problem here?

 

I know... "IT'S THE RESIDUALS." That's the load of crap the consumers have been shoved in their mouths for years. Well, I think the time has come for the consumers to wake the fuck up or otherwise there be a whole generation of them being stuck in unsafe clown cars! And when I say stuck... I mean that's what will happen when they get into an accident in one.

Edited April 15, 2009 by Bored of Pisteon

[NickF1011]

No, perception being feed by a deceitful news media is what is driving buyers away from Panthers.

 

So now it's the media that is ruining the Panther? The media has simply ignored the thing, good or bad. I don't see how you can possibly pin any blame on them.

[Bored of Pisteon]

So now it's the media that is ruining the Panther? The media has simply ignored the thing, good or bad. I don't see how you can possibly pin any blame on them.

 

Remember, it's the "perception" that small vehicles are an overall better value. That's what I'm trying to drive home because the news media has been trumpeting that for years! Especially with shitrags like Consumer Reports going goo-goo gaa-gaa drooling over Japanese cars!

 

Why can't Ford open up recommendations and designs to save the Panther platform and/or upgrade it to all of us enthusiasts? What's wrong with that?

Edited April 15, 2009 by Bored of Pisteon

[NickF1011]

Why can't Ford open up recommendations and designs to save the Panther platform and/or upgrade it to all of us enthusiasts? What's wrong with that?

 

Because, frankly, there aren't enough of you.

[nelsonlu]

No, perception being feed by a deceitful news media is what is driving buyers away from Panthers.When you drive a vehicle on flat terrain going 60mph with the cruise control on. You will get great gas mileage. In this economy, why wouldn't anyone look for long term value when buying a new car? What is the problem here?

 

That depends on what you mean by "great gas mileage." I don't think too many people, with or without "a deceitful news media," will consider 16/24 to be "great mileage." If you do, that's your freedom to do so. Just as you have a freedom to believe that the world is flat.

Edited April 15, 2009 by nelsonlu

[Cocheese]

"But as we've heard from Panther owners, they already get decent [mileage]." Well, no. There's the claim by one person that he's getting 27 MPG on the highway from a Panther, I think, which is, frankly, unbelievable, I think. (That's the same feeling that I had toward a colleague who claimed that she's getting 35 MPG in her V6 Honda Accord on the highway. In addition, even if they were not unbelievable and are achievable by hypermiling techniques, what is the point of hypermiling a Panther? And the same person, using the same techniques, would get a lot higher mileage in a Sable, anyway.)

 

Well yes. You're only willing to acknowledge one person making those claims, yet every Panther owner I've talked to (on this board and in the "real world") says the same thing. Again, it's a big car. When you choose to buy a big car, enviably you are choosing to give up on some gas milage. Why does no one complain about the F-150 miliage? Because they know when they buy a full size truck, this is what they are getting.

 

What do you think was the reason why the Grand Marquises' and the Town Cars' retail sales plummeted last summer, even before the full economic slowdown hit, and that an even bigger hit went into the Crown Victoria's fleet sales? The view that Panthers "get decent mileage" certainly comports with neither public perception nor reality.

 

Lets see, because the car has basically been abandoned by the company. No up grades, no marketing, no sales promotions. Not to mention you have to jump through hoops at the dealership just to get one, and you still might not be able to. I've said this before, I'll say it again. Even without all the new toys inside, put the 2008 Crown Vic on a level playing field with the 2008 Taurus, and the Crown Vic will have more sales. But there is no way Ford is going to let a 30 year old platform embarrass their new flagship they have dropped billions in to.

 

And I'm sure being brain washed into thinking everyone driving a big car is causing the north pole to melt certainly didn't help.

 

Again, comparing Mercury to Mercury, the EPA has the 2009 Grand Marquis getting 16 in the city and 24 on the highway, and the 2009 Sable getting 18/28. That is a fairly large difference.

 

Never in my life have I bought into what the numbers a car got on the dyno. Give me real world numbers.

 

Not to mention, I doubt I would ever say the difference between 16 and 18 as a "fairly large difference". Especially considering one is from a platform that is older then I am, and the other is brand new. Maybe that proves how good that ancient platform really is

 

You believe that the Ecoboost V6 will fit in the Panther.

 

No, I said it was a possible option. I'm not an automotve engineer, and either are you.

 

I think that it's likely that it will fit in the Panther -- but when I posed the question a few weeks ago, nobody, including anyone in the know here who works for Ford, answered in the positive as to whether it can be done or not.

 

Unless one of them was an engineer with the company and had worked with both the Panther and the ecoboost, their answers are pure speculation.

 

Certainly, I think that is the only way that the Panther platform can be saved. (I seriously doubt that there is a way to design a hybrid Panther -- while I am not at all an engine/powertrain person, given how the Panther is structured, and given that I am not aware of any car company designing a RWD true hybrid -- the Mercedes "mild hybrids" don't count, in my opinion -- I think it can't be done.)

 

So because no one else can do it, it means Ford shouldn't? Wasn't Ford one of the leaders in Hybrid technology? You're already discounting Mercedes work in this field, and didn't even mention GM's full size SUV hybrids with 4x4 drive. Also let's mention, not every car company out there (the Japs) have rear wheel drive cars. So developing them wouldn't make much sense.

 

To be clear, I don't want a Hybrid Panther, or a Hybrid in any vehicle I own. I will never recop the extra money a hybrid costs, am not convinced the durability or longevity of a Hybrid, and while I certainly am not an enviro nazi, I am full aware of the "carbon foot print" the manufacturing of a Hybrid engine creates, and don't think they are worth what the cost is.

 

 

But are you sure that most of the small segment of Panther buyers which persists would be willing to trust the Ecoboost V6 rather than a V8, let alone a hybrid powertrain? Your point has been that Panther buyers trust it because of the history of reliability. A hypothetical Ecoboost V6 Panther would be viewed as a completely new design that won't be trusted, in my opinion, even if it should be.

 

I never said I wanted any of these, and would not buy a car that had any of these options. But you asked for suggestions, so I gave them to you.

 

And your repeated "I don't want a Focus because of safety and comfort" claim is a red herring. Given that your attacks are against D3s, the comparison should be to D3s, not to C170s or C1s, whichever Focus you were referring to. It would be as much of a red herring as, "The Smart fortwo is unsafe. Therefore, the S-class, also made by Mercedes-Benz, must be also unsafe!" Are you claiming that D3s are substantially less comfortable or substantially less safe than the Panthers? (Certainly my mother, who is herself a big Panther fan, having had six Grand Marquises, isn't having any complaints about the comfort level of the CD3 Fusion Hybrid that I just got, so far. No, I have not owned a D3 car, nor do I plan to -- a major reason I didn't go for the Taurus/Sable was because it won't fit in the garage with a Grand Marquis -- but I certainly can't believe that they would be less comfortable or safe than the CD3 Fusion.)

 

First off, I've never attacked the D3. I've simply stated facts about it. The fact is, it has not done well

 

Secondly, I used the Focus as a comparable to the Panther because the Focus is small and "fuel efficient". That seems to be the "in" thing to do now. You sit here and talk about how much of a gas guzzler you think the Panther is. I am not willing to put a price on my safety or my comfort. I'm not willing to give that up to save a few bucks at the pump.

 

Is the D3 "substantially less comfortable or substantially less safe than the Panthers"? I can't say for certain, yet. But two of my buddies are LEO's who bought D3's for their personal life, and they have both said the prefer driving the Crown Vic. I'm a little more willing to take their advice then that of your mommy.

 

 

In any case, Ford can't make its product decisions based on what you want unless the market conditions are such that your view is shared by many people. I think the market has shown that it is not.

 

If I don't voice my opinion, then Ford will never know what it is. Whether they choose to listen to it or not is their choice. Plus, market choices change. Just look back through the years. Small "fuel efficient" cars maybe be the in thing now, but in a few years, the market could want their V8's back.

 

Moreover, even if market conditions favor the continued survival of the Panther, regulations won't, without a major fuel efficiency improvement. Even if, for example, Ford could produce an equivalent of the Bentley Arnage (10 MPG in the city, 14 on the highway) at the price of a D3, it cannot afford to offer one so because of the mileage issue. The situation is not quite as extreme with the Panther, but eventually that's still what the problem comes down to.

 

I'm not sure if you are slow or forgetful. I've never said I want the Panther to stay. I said I want the Panther treated with some dignity in her remaining years and I want a replacement that is just as grand as she is.

[Bored of Pisteon]

That depends on what you mean by "great gas mileage." I don't think too many people, with or without "a deceitful news media," will consider 16/24 to be "great mileage." If you do, that's your freedom to do so. Just as you have a freedom to believe that the world is flat.

 

And you have the freedom to enjoy your small car. Just let me know how you're doing from your hospital bed when you have an accident in one. Or better yet... Talk to me from your final stop: THE FUNERAL PARLOR.

[nelsonlu]

And you have the freedom to enjoy your small car. Just let me know how you're doing from your hospital bed when you have an accident in one. Or better yet... Talk to me from your final stop: THE FUNERAL PARLOR.

 

So, suddenly, D3s are small cars?

 

I'll say this: I've had my share of accidents in the old midsize Sables. They protected me just fine.

[stpatrick90]

wrong thread

Edited April 17, 2009 by stpatrick90

[Bored of Pisteon]

So, suddenly, D3s are small cars?

 

I'll say this: I've had my share of accidents in the old midsize Sables. They protected me just fine.

 

Small cars= Anything smaller than your old Sable. That's what I'm talkin' about!