The Panthers are DEAD!

[NickF1011]

Simple, when have you ever seen one as a cop car, taxi or limo??? Almost invariably the Merc is a retail sale.

 

Never seen a taxi or limo...seen a few as unmarked patrol cars though...and rental lots and business fleets are FULL of them.

[johnjyi]

Did not see any 2008 Mercury Grand Marquis, they just built 2 2008 Crown Vics,I did not drive the vehicle so I don't know if it had more power than normal or if anything new on the underpinnings of the vehicle, but I do know exterior changes are nill with a few cosmetic changes interior wise,thats it. When I see a car like that in the glass house and its got a card in the front window that identifies it as a 2008 its a 2008. Its too bad I deleted the body changes from an engineer from the body shop which identified the changes for 2007 and 2008 body builds, there were several changes for 2007 with the 2008 getting all 2007 changes plus 2 more , that I do recall. If I still have that letter I'll email it too you.

I would love to see what the changes are. I'm hoping they'll have an LSE option, at least, so I can get one.

[ZanatWork]

Simple, when have you ever seen one as a cop car, taxi or limo??? Almost invariably the Merc is a retail sale.

 

In Vegas, there are piles of them covered in casino advertisements...taxi fleets.

 

Ditto any airport rental lot...you see a huge number with some rental company's sticker on the ass end, which means one more Grand Marquis sold at negligible profit.

 

Face some facts, Panther Mafia...the per-car profit argument between Panthers and D3s is NOT one you want to get into. All the cute attempts to ignore some facet of the fleet sales (the vast majority of Panther sales, as any educated person is aware) continue to fail.

 

On a brighter note, it looks like some rwd stuff is going to percolate our of Ford Australia. Would the Panther Mafia accept a platform NOT from the rabbit-assaulted-Prez days?

[NickF1011]

Now that I've started to keep an eye out for Grand Marquis taxis, I've seen quite a few in just the past week. Working near an airport gives you a front-row seat to what's going in and out of fleets. Just need to pay attention to it.

Edited May 11, 2006 by NickF1011

[StevenJ]

Maybe you should come to South Florida. There are still plenty of retail sells of GM's. I see atleast oen or two 06's per day.

[96towncarcartier]

Hey are you freakin' BLIND???

 

LOOK how many Marquis' are on the road!! God are you stupid?

 

I pass GM's EVERY SINGLE DAY, at least a dozen on the road. My mom owns one as well. I've passed at least 10 2006's in the last week, and the dealer I go to doesn't keep them in stock for long! They're not big with Fleet sales because they cost more.

 

Grand Marquis is the MOST successful Mercury ever produced. Over 3 million built since the 1975 model year.

 

WAKE UP AND GET A CLUE.

 

Grand Marquis sales are mostly retail???? Would love to see any evidence you have of THAT.

 

Like I've said many times before, IF Ford invests enough money in the Panther TO make it fit the rest of the lineup again then more power to them. But if they DON'T (which it doesn't look like they will) then they should just close up shop and divert the funding for the program elsewhere.

Edited May 27, 2006 by 96TownCarCartier

[NickF1011]

Hey are you freakin' BLIND???

 

LOOK how many Marquis' are on the road!! God are you stupid?

 

I pass GM's EVERY SINGLE DAY, at least a dozen on the road. My mom owns one as well. I've passed at least 10 2006's in the last week, and the dealer I go to doesn't keep them in stock for long! They're not big with Fleet sales because they cost more.

 

Grand Marquis is the MOST successful Mercury ever produced. Over 3 million built since the 1975 model year.

 

WAKE UP AND GET A CLUE.

 

It's the only Mercury that has been built for more than 30 years. I'd sure hope it's the best-selling. The VW Bug sold a lot too. I wouldn't call those wonderful automobiles.

 

Oh, and the childish personal attacks don't lend any more credibility to your argument.

Edited May 30, 2006 by NickF1011

[matthewq4b]

LETS GWT REAL HERE.

 

The cars sell at a huge profit. Even in fleet. the cars are using line equipemnt that was paid for a thousand times over. the cars ell at about the same price as it's brand new compition in the fleet market.

 

Ford makes money on the cars. Ya it's old so what the CVGM are still one of Ford's most sucsessfull Auto Bodies. For sales.

 

The CV GM probelm for Ford is the image they portray. Every thing Ford does not want to be known for.

 

We all know a major investment in these cars would proboly near double sales.

 

Ford has tried to kill these cars with neglect. Probelm is they keep selling. They out lived the Taurus even.

Ha who would have guessed that in 86 the CV GM would out live the Taurus/Sable.

 

The CV GM will die a long painfull death of being ignored.

 

A waste really. But who knows stranger things have happend. They may get ground up's unexpectedly.

 

 

Matthew

[taxman100]

The CV GM probelm for Ford is the image they portray. Every thing Ford does not want to be known for.

 

We all know a major investment in these cars would proboly near double sales.

 

Ford has tried to kill these cars with neglect. Probelm is they keep selling. They out lived the Taurus even.

Ha who would have guessed that in 86 the CV GM would out live the Taurus/Sable.

 

The CV GM will die a long painfull death of being ignored.

 

A waste really. But who knows stranger things have happend. They may get ground up's unexpectedly.

Matthew

 

You are 100% correct - Ford management has decided in their ivory tower that their cocktail party friends will be more impressed by trying to marketing cars to women, young people, sexual deviants, and others that they consider "cool".

 

The Panther reminds them of the "Old Ford Motor Company" - you know, the one who had 25% of the market, the Town Car made them a billion dollars a year in profit, and management had a clue about their customers and what they liked.

[FStephenMasek]

You are 100% correct - Ford management has decided in their ivory tower that their cocktail party friends will be more impressed by trying to marketing cars to women, young people, sexual deviants, and others that they consider "cool".

 

The Panther reminds them of the "Old Ford Motor Company" - you know, the one who had 25% of the market, the Town Car made them a billion dollars a year in profit, and management had a clue about their customers and what they liked.

Very well said!

 

However, once the updated Montego / Five Hundred / Freestyle are out, sales of those vehicles will probably zoom.

 

I would still prefer rear wheel drive or rear-biased all wheel drive, but am unwilling to put up with the horrible fuel mileage and lousy handling of an Explorer. The CV, GM, and TC weight far less, so that alone makes it possible for them to obtain far better real world fuel mileage. Updating to the new 4.6 and the new 6-speed automatic and giving them updated interiors would be enough to cause a huge increase in sales, but at further expense to the Explorer and Expedition / Navigator. However, sales of those SUVs will continue to fall, so updated panthers would at least give Ford a reasonable chance of keeping customers who prefer rear wheel drive and a V8 (I think that rear wheel drive and V8 power are more significant than cargo capacity for many, or even most, SUV buyers). If Ford really wants to compete with Daimler Chrysler and the upcoming rear wheel drive GM products, they would also update the panthers with an independent rear suspension.

 

Sadly, all of what the panthers need could be done with just part of the money being wasted on Jaguar.

Edited June 3, 2006 by FStephenMasek

[ford4v429]

If Ford was run by rationale managment, I would not be so concerned about the Panther. However, Ford is not run by car guys, but by marketing guys. Billy Boy wants to be liked by the "cool" people, and the Panther is not the kind of car that the urban yuppies like.

 

Dropping the Town Car and letting the CV/GM rot shows you able evidence why Ford is losing long time customers to Toyota and Hyundai.

 

put a old 65-69-ish fastback rooflined 2 door body on it (for the mere cost of some body stampings) and the CV would sell like a mustang. the crown vic dont sell because its stale, and even when 'fresh' 15 years ago or whatever it was a ho-hum bubblecar. put a 68 fastback xl body on that tough as nails chassis, Ford would have trouble building enough of them. put the tip/slide front seats in like a van uses and the 2 door arguement would go away for most families(PITA to get my kids in and out of the new mustang).

 

 

 

 

Sadly, I just dont know if ford has the money to retool even the body stampings...maybe they simply cant afford to update this car- either that or they simply aint got a clue.

 

just thought of something- gm is in far worse shape, but the last press release on the camaro said in 2010 when the camaro comes out it will have a big brother- a 66-67 fastback looking rwd impala. I was more excited about that than about the camaro. if gm can afford it, surely ford could- especially since like the entire car is there already sans facelift.

Edited June 3, 2006 by ford4v429

[matthewq4b]

put a old 65-69-ish fastback rooflined 2 door body on it (for the mere cost of some body stampings) and the CV would sell like a mustang. the crown vic dont sell because its stale, and even when 'fresh' 15 years ago or whatever it was a ho-hum bubblecar. put a 68 fastback xl body on that tough as nails chassis, Ford would have trouble building enough of them. put the tip/slide front seats in like a van uses and the 2 door arguement would go away for most families(PITA to get my kids in and out of the new mustang).

Sadly, I just dont know if ford has the money to retool even the body stampings...maybe they simply cant afford to update this car- either that or they simply aint got a clue.

 

just thought of something- gm is in far worse shape, but the last press release on the camaro said in 2010 when the camaro comes out it will have a big brother- a 66-67 fastback looking rwd impala. I was more excited about that than about the camaro. if gm can afford it, surely ford could- especially since like the entire car is there already sans facelift.

 

 

 

This is actualy a decent idea. Instead of the tip forward seats. Offer the car in 2 body styles. The tradition 4 door Body. And the fast back but as a 4 door ala Mazda RX8. Shingle and suiside the back door. It would solve the accsess issue and still allow the lines of the fast back. This certainly would give the GM CV a Boost in sales.

 

Yes it would mean reworking most all the body and an good chunk of the chassis. But lets face it. the CV GM are going to have have the money's spent at some point and time on a car in that segment. Unless Ford Is planning to pull a GMC and just drop em all together.

 

The panther chassis and suspension is more than capable of world class handeling with the right parts.

 

Ford has just neglected to put them in the car.

 

 

 

Matthew

[StevenJ]

Even if SUV sales fall due to a reworked panther, it's not a big deal because the panther is a high profit vehicle. It's not like a small compact car where they are building them at a loss. It's easy to make money on the panther since it is an upmarket vehicle.

[68fastback]

This is actualy a decent idea. Instead of the tip forward seats. Offer the car in 2 body styles. The tradition 4 door Body. And the fast back but as a 4 door ala Mazda RX8. Shingle and suiside the back door. It would solve the accsess issue and still allow the lines of the fast back. This certainly would give the GM CV a Boost in sales.

 

Yes it would mean reworking most all the body and an good chunk of the chassis. But lets face it. the CV GM are going to have have the money's spent at some point and time on a car in that segment. Unless Ford Is planning to pull a GMC and just drop em all together.

 

The panther chassis and suspension is more than capable of world class handeling with the right parts.

 

Ford has just neglected to put them in the car.

Matthew

 

It seems clear to me Ford is cash-cowing the CVGM until something (I'd like V8-reardrive 500) can replace it in the government segment. Ironic that the ol' pathers get 25 mpg and have reliability ratings like honda & toyota -- goes to show ya, practice makes perfect. I suspect the CVGM government sales are profitable but, long term, there's no way. Hell, I think an updated hi-po V8 CVGM fastback or wagon would sell because 25mpg on a full frame with that kind of space and load-capacity is available no where else and I'd buy one. Still isn't gonna happen, I'm afraid.

 

The panther's are now an endangered species; only the ones that have successfully adapted to successfully prowl their constrained market segments remain, and will die a slow death... I will morn their passing -- they're the model-T of their generation. Heck, if a taxi or police car ISN'T a CV, it grabs your attention! I know rear drives cost more to manufacture, but what is taking so long to respond to the obvious market/demand for V8/rear-drive/roomy cars.

 

The panther's demise will leave a huge hole in the product line, in my opinion. <sigh>

 

CVGM -> :devil2: <-Ford

.

[jpd80]

What do the Crown Victoria, Mustang and Falcon have in common?

Answer: Three strong platforms that have stood the test of time, building up loyalty and strong repeat sales.

While the Mustang has undergone a quantum leap this model, the Falcon has been the subject of progressive evolution. If Ford really wants to they can save the CVGM without breaking the budget, it's all about listening to your customers, an all new chassis, upgraded the suspension and give it the "old friend" feel.

 

Since the advent of an IRS Falcon, no Aussie copper would dream of ever going back to watts link rear, the two are chalk and cheese when it comes to high speed chases, the car sits the corner much better with the negative camber on the right outer wheel and the difference is about 10 to 15 mph faster.

 

I think such an addition to the CVGM would be a must have and no, the Falcon is not for NA!

[68fastback]

What do the Crown Victoria, Mustang and Falcon have in common?

Answer: Three strong platforms that have stood the test of time, building up loyalty and strong repeat sales.

While the Mustang has undergone a quantum leap this model, the Falcon has been the subject of progressive evolution. If Ford really wants to they can save the CVGM without breaking the budget, it's all about listening to your customers, an all new chassis, upgraded the suspension and give it the "old friend" feel.

 

Since the advent of an IRS Falcon, no Aussie copper would dream of ever going back to watts link rear, the two are chalk and cheese when it comes to high speed chases, the car sits the corner much better with the negative camber on the right outer wheel and the difference is about 10 to 15 mph faster.

 

I think such an addition to the CVGM would be a must have and no, the Falcon is not for NA!

 

Yeah, the Aussie Falcon really should come here -- it's sweet. I wonder of Ford is concerned over how the GM's Aussie GTO didn't get accepted.. but I think that was more that it gets creamed by a base mustang GT 3V and the design was dull. The Falcon is cool!

[7Mary3]

GTO's getting 'creamed' by base GT Mustangs? My only explanation would be that the GTO driver wasn't aware the Mustang was racing him! Drive them both and then see if you agree with that statement. Back to the CVPI's: I just heard from a friend that the L.A.P.D. is going to sell all their CVPI's and go with the Charger. I think there may have been a lot of resentment for the CVPI in that department for some reason.

[xstapr]

GTO's getting 'creamed' by base GT Mustangs? My only explanation would be that the GTO driver wasn't aware the Mustang was racing him! Drive them both and then see if you agree with that statement. Back to the CVPI's: I just heard from a friend that the L.A.P.D. is going to sell all their CVPI's and go with the Charger. I think there may have been a lot of resentment for the CVPI in that department for some reason.

Like the name of this thread says "The Panthers Are Dead!"

[sa_seahawker]

Just curious, but how big is the Falcon compared to the CVPI?

 

The falcon looks like a mid-sized car...albeit a cool one!

[NickF1011]

Just curious, but how big is the Falcon compared to the CVPI?

 

The falcon looks like a mid-sized car...albeit a cool one!

 

From what I can tell (actual measurements aside), it doesn't look to be a heck of a lot bigger than the Fusion in all honesty, as far as usable space goes anyway. It's definitely much smaller than the CV though.

[StevenJ]

From what I can tell (actual measurements aside), it doesn't look to be a heck of a lot bigger than the Fusion in all honesty, as far as usable space goes anyway. It's definitely much smaller than the CV though.

 

But there is the Fairlane LWB version of the Falcon which is similar in size to the CV. Just making note of its existence.

[PItrippin']

For those who think the current platform is not profitable, think again. Ford has been building this car for a long time on it's current platform with some very minimal changes (when we think abouit it). The Panther platform has delivered and continues to deliver and it's "paid for". Even if sales are down in a segment, it is not as big of a hit as with another model that is either new or gone through significant re-tooling/or new design work.

 

Ford needs to help this model a bit but don't be fooled. Sensible police administrators are just as scared of equipping their fleets with 150 MPH Chargers as they are inticed by 150 MPH Chargers. Displacement on demand BS is not going to work with guys who put their foot in it all day long. The entire shift is not spent in car chases guys. My agency has a lot, A LOT, of equipment that fits Fords and they had their bad experience of buying 8 Chevies in 2000 behind them. We like our Fords, we want our Fords, we just don't want them in the shop. Get it Ford?

 

The Panther will be a viable and profitable platform if Ford does a few things.

 

1. Work on issues of dependability

2. Minor issues of performance, but it doesn't have to be a Charger

3. Refreshen the car without drastically changing critcial demensions (ancillary equipment that fits on older CVPI's still needs to fit newer models like now).

 

Now for the civilian market. I really like that fastback idea, but I think it would have to be a suicide door four-door like the Saturn Ion to make it work.

[Bob Rosadini]

PItrippin. Good post. My 00 with the 41G package is pushing 208,000 and it is solid as a rock. Last mo. I averaged almost 22 mpg and remember the 00 41G had 3.55's.

 

I'm about to order an 07 Sport, but really do wish they had made some changes- like get rid of the excess crush zones in front and back, give it a few more amenities- like driving lights, a light under the hood, etc. The car does not have to be the pace car of AARP!

 

Unfortunately we all sound like broken records on this site. I can't believe the product planners are as blind as they seem to be.

[NickF1011]

Unfortunately we all sound like broken records on this site. I can't believe the product planners are as blind as they seem to be.

 

Here's the major problem: In order for the product engineers to make all the necessary changes to make the Panther a product we'd all enjoy again, Ford would basically lose all its leverage on the paid-off tooling. By the time all the new manufacturing processes were implemented, they'd be building a vehicle as expensive and unprofitable as any other. It's basically a lose-lose for the panther: Either keep it the way it is and slowly watch it die (albeit at a nice profit), or heavily invest in it to make it appeal to a wider market again and watch the profit potential slip away.

[StevenJ]

Here's the major problem: In order for the product engineers to make all the necessary changes to make the Panther a product we'd all enjoy again, Ford would basically lose all its leverage on the paid-off tooling. By the time all the new manufacturing processes were implemented, they'd be building a vehicle as expensive and unprofitable as any other. It's basically a lose-lose for the panther: Either keep it the way it is and slowly watch it die (albeit at a nice profit), or heavily invest in it to make it appeal to a wider market again and watch the profit potential slip away.

 

 

They wouldn't have to heavily invest anything into it. For all I care, they should just put the Ford Mustang 3v V8 power train into the car along with the Explorer's six speed automatic. The only costs would be to update the computer management software and the floor pan. Again, not that expensive to do. Plus a new front clip for the car isn't expensive since it doesn't necesarily mean that other body panels have to change since everything bolts onto a ladder frame.