Will the New Global C Chassis Have Hybrid Capability?

[Harley Lover]

I've been wondering if part of the reason that engineering for the global Focus was moved to Dearborn is to utilize the knowledge there regarding hybrid drivetrains, and make certain that the new C chassis has provisions for hybrid capability. We pretty much know that the next Gen Escape will be built on the chassis, so that would drive including the hybrid capability in the chassis. But wouldn'f Ford have a much more compelling business case if they planned to offer other C chassis vehicles in hybrid form? Knowing that the Prius is based on a Corolla chassis, it makes sense to me that Ford might want to have the ability to build a C chassis hybrid at some point in the coming years that can directly compete against the Prius, and perhaps even beat it in mileage (based on how well the Fusion Hybrid beats its Camry counterpart).

 

A direct Prius competitor might not work for Ford for any number of good reasons. Would Ford be willing to have a bespoke tophat for its (non-Escape) C chassis hybrid, following the Toyota model? To do so would of course be charting new territory for Ford's hybrid approach. Could Ford source enough battery packs to supply the model line? It doesn't seem likely. Ford seems to be following the ramp up of battery capacity worldwide - as supply grows organically, Ford's model availability grows with the battery pack supply. Maybe most importantly, can a solid business case be built for a direct Prius competitor, bespoke bodywork and all? I doubt it.

 

So, having stipulated all that, wouldn't it still make sense for Ford to have the ability to offer its C chassis models in hybrid form? Particularly the people mover models, like the C Max and the S Max, if it makes the trip over. And of course, the next gen Escape. There's no certain answer, I'm just interested in speculation from a business perspective.

Edited July 23, 2009 by Harley Lover

[rkisler]

I've been wondering if part of the reason that engineering for the global Focus was moved to Dearborn is to utilize the knowledge there regarding hybrid drivetrains, and make certain that the new C chassis has provisions for hybrid capability. We pretty much know that the next Gen Escape will be built on the chassis, so that would drive including the hybrid capability in the chassis. But wouldn'f Ford have a much more compelling business case if they planned to offer other C chassis vehicles in hybrid form? Knowing that the Prius is based on a Corolla chassis, it makes sense to me that Ford might want to have the ability to build a C chassis hybrid at some point in the coming years that can directly compete against the Prius, and perhaps even beat it in mileage (based on how well the Fusion Hybrid beats its Camry counterpart).

 

A direct Prius competitor might not work for Ford for any number of good reasons. Would Ford be willing to have a bespoke tophat for its (non-Escape) C chassis hybrid, following the Toyota model? To do so would of course be charting new territory for Ford's hybrid approach. Could Ford source enough battery packs to supply the model line? It doesn't seem likely. Ford seems to be following the ramp up of battery capacity worldwide - as supply grows organically, Ford's model availability grows with the battery pack supply. Maybe most importantly, can a solid business case be built for a direct Prius competitor, bespoke bodywork and all? I doubt it.

 

So, having stipulated all that, wouldn't it still make sense for Ford to have the ability to offer its C chassis models in hybrid form? Particularly the people mover models, like the C Max and the S Max, if it makes the trip over. And of course, the next gen Escape. There's no certain answer, I'm just interested in speculation from a business perspective.

 

The Focus was moved to Europe and the next-gen CD moved to the U.S.

 

Personally, I think one of the biggest holes in Ford's lineup is the absence of a dedicated hybrid with unique styling. But I certainly haven't seen any rumors to this effect.

[billyk24]

The battery supply issue (currently from Japan) will be solved when the Johnson Controls-Sach lithium-ion battery plant in Michigan is up and running full time. This should be within 18 months as it is currently being renovated. The Asian AW power split transmission used in the Escape and Fusion Hybrid models is made in Japan and has an indirect connection to Toyota. Maybe this item might be "a" or "the" bottle neck in the future. I had read in the past Ford "had" a research team attempt to "replace?" the Asian AW transmission with a home grown model but this was canceled before achieving success.

 

I had read the hybrid platform was redesigned so it could be "dropped" into a variety of vehicles and engines (Taurus and Edge have been mentioned as possibilities) opposed to the Escape's unique design. There is a lot of change going on at Ford with the recent introduction of the Eco-B. engines and new vehicles. It is hard to keep up with all the changes.

Edited July 23, 2009 by billyk24

[ds91776]

I think it is pretty much nailed down that there will be a Focus Hybrid eventually, probably a year or two after the launch of the 2011 model. We already know there will be an electric version, etc. This makes so much sense because it could be sold in Europe as well of course, and the Escape/Kuga will be sold there too. It would also give Mercury a third hybrid as well. It is also possible that the next-gen C-MAX could get a hybrid model too, but that may be reserved for Europe until that kind of mini-minivan catches on in NA.

 

By the way, the S-MAX is on EUCD (Mondeo, Galaxy, S80, V70, XC60), not C1.

[rmc523]

The battery supply issue (currently from Japan) will be solved when the Johnson Controls-Sach lithium-ion battery plant in Michigan is up and running full time. This should be within 18 months as it is currently being renovated. The Asian AW power split transmission used in the Escape and Fusion Hybrid models is made in Japan and has an indirect connection to Toyota. Maybe this item might be "a" or "the" bottle neck in the future. I had read in the past Ford "had" a research team attempt to "replace?" the Asian AW transmission with a home grown model but this was canceled before achieving success.

 

I had read the hybrid platform was redesigned so it could be "dropped" into a variety of vehicles and engines (Taurus and Edge have been mentioned as possibilities) opposed to the Escape's unique design. There is a lot of change going on at Ford with the recent introduction of the Eco-B. engines and new vehicles. It is hard to keep up with all the changes.

 

I think as you said, the intent with each successive hybrid powerpack is to make it as (excuse my analogy) "plug and playable" as possible into different vehicles, platforms, etc.

[mustang_sallad]

The battery supply issue (currently from Japan) will be solved when the Johnson Controls-Sach lithium-ion battery plant in Michigan is up and running full time. This should be within 18 months as it is currently being renovated.

 

So you're saying that all the hybrids will soon be making a switch to li-ion batteries? That's the first I've heard of that. Li-ion's are definitely a requirement for a pure BEV, but hybrids definitely don't NEED them to be a success. Sure it'll cut the battery weight almost in half, but the battery for a non-plug-in hybrid is not that big anyways (maybe 50kg or so??), but as prices stand, I'm sure it would ad a couple grand to the vehicles cost. That said, if there simply aren't enough NiMH batteries to go around, then by all means lets step up to the good stuff right away.

 

My masters research is actually on a new type of battery that could potentially replace NiMH, nickel zinc batteries. They offer slightly better energy density than NiMH, though I don't know how price would compare yet. I'll let you know how they hold up.

[2b2]

...Personally, I think one of the biggest holes in Ford's lineup is the absence of a dedicated hybrid with unique styling. But I certainly haven't seen any rumors to this effect.

 

There was a "whitespace" vehicle mentioned iirc in connection with the C3

link1, from almost exactly one year ago, expired so

link2b2

 

 

I'm practically COUNTING on it being a Merc

betwn the Focus & Milan in size

[rmc523]

There was a "whitespace" vehicle mentioned iirc in connection with the C3

link1, from almost exactly one year ago, expired so

link2b2

 

 

I'm practically COUNTING on it being a Merc

betwn the Focus & Milan in size

 

Well, Mercury is supposed to be getting a Focus counterpart...or are you talking in addition to that one?

[2b2]

additional C3 model, Rmc

 

for me, it'd be stretched a bit, maybe a coupe-ish 5-door only

AND

3 (THREE) drivetrains (yeah right)

Hybrid

BEV

Extendz(Voltish)

Edited July 23, 2009 by 2b2

[rmc523]

additional C3 model, Rmc

 

for me, it'd be stretched a bit, maybe a coupe-ish 5-door only

AND

3 (THREE) drivetrains (yeah right)

Hybrid

BEV

Extendz(Voltish)

 

Ahhh, ok.

 

Your enthusiasm for Mercury astounds me, I'm all for the brand, but I could never be as enthusiastic as you (and a few others) are....

[Noah Harbinger]

I'm practically COUNTING on it being a Merc

betwn the Focus & Milan in size

 

Right now, I'd say Mercury has the brand awareness of, say, Suzuki.

 

I can't Ford developing an all new, unique, cutting edge vehicle to distribute through a limited dealer network with little brand awareness, unless they really, really plan to revitalize Mercury.

 

But then again, Mercury has been getting the kind of touchy-feely vibe that might work with a unique-looking hybrid.

Edited July 23, 2009 by Noah Harbinger

[theoldwizard]

The Asian AW power split transmission used in the Escape and Fusion Hybrid models is made in Japan and has an indirect connection to Toyota. Maybe this item might be "a" or "the" bottle neck in the future. I had read in the past Ford "had" a research team attempt to "replace?" the Asian AW transmission with a home grown model but this was canceled before achieving success.

It was "the" volume bottleneck in the past.

 

Yes, the project to design an all new transmission was canceled about 4 years ago. There are still rumors that Ford is working with Getrag to some how make a DCT work in a hybrid application. This is strictly a research project, so don't get excited.

[fbmphil]

There are still rumors that Ford is working with Getrag to some how make a DCT work in a hybrid application. This is strictly a research project, so don't get excited.

 

Where oh where did I see a press release detailing what I think was a hybrid powerpack compatible DCT...

 

Allow me to get to googling.

[fbmphil]

Where oh where did I see a press release detailing what I think was a hybrid powerpack compatible DCT...

 

Allow me to get to googling.

 

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/09/getrag-introduc.html

 

So, like you said, under development.

[ausrutherford]

Well I remember when MT did a big story on the Concept C that it was mentioned that the 2.5 Hybrid from the Fusion could fit.

[2b2]

...Your enthusiasm for Mercury astounds me, I'm all for the brand, but I could never be as enthusiastic as you (and a few others) are....

"You will be"

:D

[Harley Lover]

I keep wondering if Ford has more planned for the C chassis at Louisville than is known to the public. I doubt that any of these ideas could have a solid business case made for them, but it's intriguing to consider the possibilities: a bespoke bodied Ford hybrid aimed at the Prius, the Lincoln C, the previously mentioned mystery Mercury product, and the 'white space' product mentioned above.

 

Given Ford's new tack of aiming for singles and doubles instead of home runs, it seems at least plausible that Ford might move forward in one of those product arenas, given that sales wouldn't have to be huge to support the production of the product.

[battyr]

I have read nothing about a C2 bybrid. I thinks Ford is waiting for the next generation hybrid system. You can be sure that the C2 will be hybrid ready. It will come with will as many of the standard hybrid equipment like electric power steer, etc as posible. It will be designed with a place to put the battery and room for all the hybrid equipment.

[Harley Lover]

I'm harping on the bespoke bodied Prius competitior because I think Ford is best positioned to create a competitive or even superior product, and I think Ford should give strong consideration to not ceding this particular segment to Toyota (and Honda to a lesser extent).

 

As others have noted, Prius sales are very uneven from year to year. But, given the standards for fuel economy that Ford will be expected to meet in the coming years, having a strong seller in this category seems like a good strategic choice, as opposed to simply allowing Toyota to own the segment. And of course, the technical improvements that will occur can also be shared across the universe of Ford hybrids, and then there's the marketing benefit of competing head to head with the Prius - there's a significant segment of the unwashed masses who still don't think an American car company can compete with Toyota/Honda.

 

I know the downsides, I think the upsides might outweigh them in terms of the business case. Especially if it's a product built in Louisville, and its sales will be limited anyway by plant capacity/sharing the line with all the other C products.

Edited July 24, 2009 by Harley Lover

[rmc523]

"You will be"

:D

 

Would Yoda not say "be enthusiastic you will" or something of the sort? :lol:

[2b2]

Would Yoda not say "be enthusiastic you will" or something of the sort? :lol:

afaik that was the correct quotation...

...Luke says something like "I'm not afraid" then Yoda replies ____

but

iirc it was in the same setting as “Do or do not... there is no try."

Edited July 25, 2009 by 2b2

[rmc523]

afaik that was the correct quotation...

...Luke says something like "I'm not afraid" then Yoda replies ____

but

iirc it was in the same setting as “Do or do not... there is no try."

 

Ok, guess I wasn't thinking about it being an actual quote from the movie, although I should've figured that.....it's been so long since I've seen that episode, and it's late (early) and I'm tired...