RichardJensen Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Richard you are a tool sometimes. Opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Mercury works right now, as is. Whether Mercury enthusiasts like it or not, the current structure works. And if it ain't broke....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
92merc Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Mercury works right now, as is. Whether Mercury enthusiasts like it or not, the current structure works. And if it ain't broke....... The Mercury line up is getting just too thin. Sable gone. Mountaineer gone. Grand Marquis just about gone. Montery mini-van long gone. When Focus came out, Mercury counterpart was axxed. Cougar never panned out. I'm sure Mariner will be gone with Escape refresh. How much further is Ford going before they come up with a plan? With just the Milan and Escape, how much thinner can Mercury get? Might as well just call Mercury a "trim line" and be done with it. BTW, I am a Mercury fanboy. Bring back the Godshead! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Mercury works right now, as is. Whether Mercury enthusiasts like it or not, the current structure works. And if it ain't broke....... It works...but can it work better? Ford should always be looking to improve and not just settle for "if it ain't broke". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 It works...but can it work better? Ford should always be looking to improve and not just settle for "if it ain't broke". I think there's limited upside--if one's assumption is that it's "Lincoln-Mercury" instead of "Lincoln" and "Mercury" Consider, assuming the Focus-clone: LM lineup: Ford lineup: Navigator(?) Expedition MKT Flex MKS Taurus MKX Edge MKZ Fusion Milan Mustang Mariner Escape Focus-clone Focus Explorer LM could maybe expand by a vehicle or two in conjunction with Ford, but as you can see, the LM range is almost as broad as the Ford range (excl. pickups, of course). Adding models at this point is not, IMO, a suitable method for adding volume. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 I think there's limited upside--if one's assumption is that it's "Lincoln-Mercury" instead of "Lincoln" and "Mercury" Consider, assuming the Focus-clone: LM lineup: Ford lineup: Navigator(?) Expedition MKT Flex MKS Taurus MKX Edge MKZ Fusion Milan Mustang Mariner Escape Focus-clone Focus Explorer LM could maybe expand by a vehicle or two in conjunction with Ford, but as you can see, the LM range is almost as broad as the Ford range (excl. pickups, of course). Adding models at this point is not, IMO, a suitable method for adding volume. But that list also leaves out several of the upcoming products: Fiesta B-Max C-Max S-Max Transit Connect Assuming at least 3-4 of those reach our shores, you're looking at a Ford lineup that is still considerably larger than L-M's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 But that list also leaves out several of the upcoming products: Fiesta B-Max C-Max S-Max Transit Connect Assuming at least 3-4 of those reach our shores, you're looking at a Ford lineup that is still considerably larger than L-M's. Transit Connect = commercial/truck Fiesta = opportunity for Mercury C-Max = opportunity for Mercury (as a Ford clone)--assuming Ford planners see a market for it stateside. I'm no longer convinced that it exists. B-Max = iffy business prop. It's not certain the US is getting it. S-Max = US will move Edge, Flex, or Explorer onto CD4 in that niche. S-Max will not be -added- to Ford lineup. As I said, Mercury has an opportunity to add 1-2 vehicles in conjunction with Ford. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Transit Connect = commercial/truckFiesta = opportunity for Mercury C-Max = opportunity for Mercury (as a Ford clone)--assuming Ford planners see a market for it stateside. I'm no longer convinced that it exists. B-Max = iffy business prop. It's not certain the US is getting it. S-Max = US will move Edge, Flex, or Explorer onto CD4 in that niche. S-Max will not be -added- to Ford lineup. As I said, Mercury has an opportunity to add 1-2 vehicles in conjunction with Ford. 3 if you think the Mustang could eventually spawn a platform mate or two. And well, that would be a pretty well rounded Mercury lineup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 3 if you think the Mustang could eventually spawn a platform mate or two. And well, that would be a pretty well rounded Mercury lineup. I think the Cougar question has been looked at from every angle. I don't think it would attract enough new buyers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 I think the Cougar question has been looked at from every angle. I don't think it would attract enough new buyers. If other Mercurys can survive on volumes as low as 20-25K a year, I see no reason a Cougar couldn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 If other Mercurys can survive on volumes as low as 20-25K a year, I see no reason a Cougar couldn't. But would you see even that many Cougars? IMO. No. There are a lot of people on this board that say they want a Cougar, but among them, IMO, only xr7g428 has 'effective demand'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 But would you see even that many Cougars? IMO. No. There are a lot of people on this board that say they want a Cougar, but among them, IMO, only xr7g428 has 'effective demand'. I don't see why it wouldn't. Even the lambasted last gen FWD Cougar sold around 20,000 units in its last, mostly-ignored year on the market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 I don't see why it wouldn't. Even the lambasted last gen FWD Cougar sold around 20,000 units in its last, mostly-ignored year on the market. In a 17M market where Ford still had c.20% of the volume. Ford was selling c. 4M units a year back then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 In a 17M market where Ford still had c.20% of the volume. Ford was selling c. 4M units a year back then. And offering a far better product than the previous Cougar could very well offset those market share differences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2b2 Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Mercury works right now, as is. Whether Mercury enthusiasts like it or not, the current structure works. And if it ain't broke..............get ready to re-invent everything for the next business cycle otherwise after 5 years too many stuck in a rut cough*SUVs*cough and signaling the YearOfTheCar with the 500 cough*cough and waiting 5 MORE years to bring the REAL car *superTaurus* ....Next Time get your act together before hand & be PRO-Active Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 And offering a far better product than the previous Cougar could very well offset those market share differences. Meh. 'Better product' is a matter of debate--To be sure, it's a better Mustang, but is it a better Cougar? IMO, you could argue that both products are too extreme for Mercury. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
92merc Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 As I said, Mercury has an opportunity to add 1-2 vehicles in conjunction with Ford. I do think that Ford shouldn't just slap a Mercury badge on any old European vehicle. It should wait until it can get on the global platform sharing train. But I do feel that as long as the assembly line can support the line, there should be a Mercury or 2 that is sold in Europe on the same platform, but is exclusive to Mercury. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battyr Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Mercury should serve 2 purposes. 1. to sell more Fords and higher markup, and 2. to sell more Lincolns. If you put a Mercury badge on a Ford and option it up, that is the same as selling more Fords at a higher markup. It is a good idea. If you stop selling a Ford Probe and replace it with a Mercury cougar that sell poorer because there are fewer dealers, then it is a bad idea. If you sell a Mercury CUV and it steals sales away from Ford CUV's, and add complexity to the already profitable product, then it is a bad idea. If a Lincoln buyer has to go into a Honda dealership to get a cheaper car for his wife because Mercury has no products, then it is a bad idea. I don't see much they can change. You don't want to spend a lot on new Mercury products without a good thought out plan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battyr Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Long-term, I think that Ford needs to either Kill Mercury, or find a way to mover Global with Lincoln. If Buick's can sell in China, so could Mercuries. I would think that both Lincoln and Mercury would do will in the middle-East. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2b2 Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 (edited) ... find a way to mover Global with LincolnMercury. If Buick's can sell in China, so could Mercuries. I would think that both Lincoln and Mercury would do well just about everywhere with proper lineups. fixed^ (tho in truth it didn't take much... ...sorta like fixing L-M!!!) for Merc's first global introduction = C3 Capri for Lincoln's " -- " -- " = C3 MKG(KuGa) get your first step right and the rest will following much more easily ex: step2 Merc = the C3 Whitespace hybrid/BEV/Extenz Lincoln = either the GRwdP("GLMR") or the Mondeo/MKZ(/Milan/Fusion) Edited August 10, 2009 by 2b2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Ford has limited development resources - they have to focus on the biggest bang for the buck right now. And the Ford brand is where the volume - and profits - are. Ford has struggled for years with a half-ass product lineup while funding was diverted to Mercury clones and European brands. Look at what they accomplished with the new Taurus by having a "laser focus". The money and time saved by not having a Sable clone enabled the new Taurus to be truly best in class. Once the Fiesta, new Explorer and new Focus/Fusion are done, then they can turn to Lincoln. Lincoln will be the volume brand above Ford, just like Acura to Honda, Infiniti to Nissan and Lexus to Toyota. Lincoln dealers will have a full range of vehicles that buyers will want and that can be sold at a profit - just like Ford is doing with the Ford brand now. The dealers won't need Ford cloned Mercurys to survive. If it's the middle of summer and you're air conditioner, stove and dishwasher are all broken - you don't spend money fixing the dishwasher until the other 2 are fixed. In the grand scheme of things, Mercury is a dishwasher. Nice to have but not a priority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Mercury should serve 2 purposes. 1. to sell more Fords and higher markup, and 2. to sell more Lincolns. Mercury should only serve 1 purpose - to make money for Ford Motor Company. How could a Mercury possibly help to sell more Lincolns? That doesn't make sense. If you put a Mercury badge on a Ford and option it up, that is the same as selling more Fords at a higher markup. It is a good idea. No, it's not. You have the cost of making and marketing a Mercury version which eats into additional profit. Put the money into the Ford version and you'll get the same benefit of higher markups on fully optioned models PLUS you'll increase the perception of lower end Fords like the Fiesta and Fusion. That's why putting the new Taurus up close to the MKS in terms of features and options is such a great idea. You don't want people thinking "cheap" when they think of Ford. If they want more than Ford offers - there is Lincoln. If a Lincoln buyer has to go into a Honda dealership to get a cheaper car for his wife because Mercury has no products, then it is a bad idea. Umm......tell me again why the Lincoln buyer won't go into the Ford dealership to get a cheaper car? Why would they go to Honda? What does Honda offer that Ford cannot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Mercury should only serve 1 purpose - to make money for Ford Motor Company. How could a Mercury possibly help to sell more Lincolns? That doesn't make sense. I think he was trying to say that keeping Mercury gives LM dealers additional models to sell making the dealers stronger, as a Lincoln-only dealer wouldn't do as well right now. Umm......tell me again why the Lincoln buyer won't go into the Ford dealership to get a cheaper car? Why would they go to Honda? What does Honda offer that Ford cannot? To use FJ's words (never thought I'd do that).....boring, bland and dull (and ugly!) styled cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 I think he was trying to say that keeping Mercury gives LM dealers additional models to sell making the dealers stronger, as a Lincoln-only dealer wouldn't do as well right now. And that's why Mercury exists today as rebadged Fords. But the plan is to a - give Lincoln the products so they can make it with just Lincoln products b - combine with Ford dealers so there are no/few stand alone L/M dealers And if Mercury was just a rebadged Ford then there wouldn't be any difference between the Mercury and the Ford version that would cause someone to go to a Honda (or any other brand). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2b2 Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 (edited) Mercury should only serve 1 purpose - to make money for Ford Motor Company. How could a Mercury possibly help to sell more Lincolns? That doesn't make sense... I'm of the opinion (& that's all it is) that upto half the people that bought an MKZ, came to the dealer to see the MILAN & think a lot of the KillMerc crowd simply lack confidence in LINCOLN ever being world class I believe in both halves of the "Star & Wings" Edited August 10, 2009 by 2b2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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