FordBuyer Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 How is having an additional F-150 line being screwed? Ford needs at least 2 F-150 plants. I would hope that F-Series sales come back to more normal levels of maybe 50,000-70,000/month once the construction industry and economy in general improves. When that happens assuming fuel prices don't go way back up, Ford will need two plants building F-150's. It wasn't too long ago that Ford had at least three plants building them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ausrutherford Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 I would hope that F-Series sales come back to more normal levels of maybe 50,000-70,000/month once the construction industry and economy in general improves. When that happens assuming fuel prices don't go way back up, Ford will need two plants building F-150's. It wasn't too long ago that Ford had at least three plants building them. They already have two plants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 They already have two plants. I realize that right now KCAP and DTP build the F-150, but if pickup truck sales normalize, Ford will need all the capacity of KCAP I would think. As for the Escape, I like it and it does sell very well, but it is getting long in the tooth and needs to be updated and get fuel mileage of new Equinox. That will take more aerodynamic package, and hopefully Ford can use some Escape styling cues. The Escape needs new interior also. The present Escape doesn't have a lot of years left in it. It's just too competitive a market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pioneer Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 How is having an additional F-150 line being screwed? Ford needs at least 2 F-150 plants. Plants operating on one shift usually are closed. If Ford really needed 4 shifts of F-150 production, KTP could probably pick up the one shift that DTP cannot build. Hopefully, that doesn't happen, but the company's plans that have been announced so far make it look pretty bleak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 As for the Escape, I like it and it does sell very well, but it is getting long in the tooth and needs to be updated and get fuel mileage of new Equinox. That will take more aerodynamic package, and hopefully Ford can use some Escape styling cues. The Escape needs new interior also. The present Escape doesn't have a lot of years left in it. It's just too competitive a market. And nobody is arguing that Escape doesn't need to be changed, in fact I agree that it's in need of a redesign soon, although I think the current model can hold out for a couple more years. The point that many of us are arguing is that we don't think the Escape should go to a 'me too' generic crossover look that the Kuga has. It should retain as much of it's trucky look as possible IMO, and the current model's sales show the market is willing to support the Escape if designed that way. And this is nothing at all against the Kuga. It seems like a great vehicle, but again, compared to the competition (Rav-4, CR-V, and now Equinox), it looks kind of generic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 The article contradicts itself. It calls the Kuga a "replacement for the Escape" and then says it is an “incremental product”. I'm with the rest of you. Keep the Escape "top hat" and sell the Kuga (a CUV, not an SUV) as part of the the Mercury line ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 As I mentioned earlier in another string, it looks like Ford will be building the Kuga/Escape in Louisville and the C-Max in WAP I saw no reference to C-Max in that article. IMHO, C-Max alone would not be enough volume to retool WAP after Focus moves to MAP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atvman Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 One of the big selling points of the Escape is that, unlike most of its competition, it still looks like an SUV. It has become a pretty hot item over the past few years, I think Ford needs to make sure that it still has the appeal that it has today. I'm almost 100% sure the Kuga is far better dynamically, but that doesn't mean it will sell better. I say they should keep the Escape name and boxy SUV styling, and sell the European styled Kuga as the next Mercury Mariner. That way, we get both products and a Mercury model that looks substantially different than its Ford sister. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkisler Posted October 23, 2009 Author Share Posted October 23, 2009 (edited) I saw no reference to C-Max in that article. IMHO, C-Max alone would not be enough volume to retool WAP after Focus moves to MAP. The reference to C-Max was hand-written in the margin of the UAW document that was in the Free Press that Pioneer posted. There is no such thing as WAP when the plant is reconfigured. The best I can see, the flow is changed completely. The stamping shop of the old WAP is used, but the flow goes across the tracks to the old MTP and the old WAP becomes a big warehouse or perhaps can handle some subassemblies (like, say, the electric drivetrain?). The C-Max would be built on the same line as the Focus in the new MAP. Edited October 23, 2009 by Austin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkisler Posted October 23, 2009 Author Share Posted October 23, 2009 The article contradicts itself. It calls the Kuga a "replacement for the Escape" and then says it is an “incremental product”. I'm with the rest of you. Keep the Escape "top hat" and sell the Kuga (a CUV, not an SUV) as part of the the Mercury line ! When the Explorer moves to Chicago, Louisville is without a product. So, from the perspective of Ford talking to the union, ANY product is incremental. It doesn't necessarily mean an incremental product in the marketplace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 Who says "SUVs" have to be boxy. The consumer ! Look at the SUV market, including non-Ford. They are design to maximize interior volume. CUVs (like Edge) round off the corners and back and sacrifice interior volume for style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pioneer Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 It calls the Kuga a "replacement for the Escape" and then says it is an "incremental product". It's both. LAP will produce the Escape for the American/Canadian market, and the Kuga will be an incremental product for export. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pioneer Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 One wonders how that will play over where the hidden subtext is that the US were once colonies. If they are anything like Americans, they won't care. Americans flock to Wal Mart to buy products that are produced in Communist countries with slave labor, no environmental laws, and human rights violations because they can save 5 cents. What makes you think people in the UK will be any different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkisler Posted October 23, 2009 Author Share Posted October 23, 2009 If they are anything like Americans, they won't care. Americans flock to Wal Mart to buy products that are produced in Communist countries with slave labor, no environmental laws, and human rights violations because they can save 5 cents. What makes you think people in the UK will be any different? Pioneer, I've had a fair amount of experience overseas, and I have a couple of comments: 1. The U.S. is the only market I have any experience with that denigrates its own auto industry. Every other market I have experience with, ranging from markets in Asia to markets in Europe, takes huge pride in its home auto industry. 2. When the country takes pride in its auto industry, they are more likely to buy the home-branded product. This is especially true in Japan, Korea, and Germany. The Japanese truly believe that there is not a product of any kind in the world that is as good as a Japanese-made product, even if they have to pay top yen. 3. In the U.S. (as you mention), we are complete whores. Whatever is cheapest works for most people, without considering the knock-on effects of buying a garage-full of overseas products and a house full of Chinese crap. Or we have built-in predispositions about auto brands that aren't necessarily tied to reality. 4. Of all the overseas markets, UK is more like the U.S. due in part to the fact it has lost a significant part of its auto industry. 5. However....I don't see that there will be resistance to U.S.-built products in Europe; I think the success will be tied primarily to the product attributes and the brand. They already accept products from Eastern Europe and some BMW's are exported from the U.S. In the past with Ford, a lot of the difficulty in shipping U.S. products to Europe was the arrogant attitude of Ford Europe who seemed to work hard to either resist the products or make them fail (but in fairness, they probably felt the same about the U.S.). With better cooperation, and the dollar in the dumps, there could be a whole range of opportunites for shipping U.S.-built product to Europe. That would be good for Ford, and good for the UAW workers who build those products. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 Who says "SUVs" have to be boxy. Ok then, show me a curvy/non-boxy SUV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atvman Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 I agree RJ.....it's obvious that people like the Escape as-is, so why drastically change that to make it look like the competition, when it already does as good, if not better than them? I understand the whole consolidation thing, but still... I say they give the Kuga to Mercury (heck even call it Mercury Kuga), give Lincoln it's version, and redo the Escape to be similar looking to today's model or something - maybe they could have it be a bit of Flex meets Explorer - just thinking out loud. They can't call it the Mercury Kuga, people in Boston will get it confused with the Mercury Cougar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ausrutherford Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 The article contradicts itself. It calls the Kuga a "replacement for the Escape" and then says it is an “incremental product”. I'm with the rest of you. Keep the Escape "top hat" and sell the Kuga (a CUV, not an SUV) as part of the the Mercury line ! Maybe its because that the Kuga will already have been on the market for 3 years. When the Kuga/Escape merge on the facelift, with the Kuga being old...the Escape and Kuga would have to be all new for MY15. So the MY12 Escape would be the incremental before the all new product. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pioneer Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 Maybe its because that the Kuga will already have been on the market for 3 years. When the Kuga/Escape merge on the facelift, with the Kuga being old...the Escape and Kuga would have to be all new for MY15. So the MY12 Escape would be the incremental before the all new product. I've already explained what the "incremental product" is. At least that is what our Union is telling us it means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ausrutherford Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 I've already explained what the "incremental product" is. At least that is what our Union is telling us it means. Anyway, exporting it from the US is a bone to the union for the contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pioneer Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 Anyway, exporting it from the US is a bone to the union for the contract. How is it a bone if the labor is cheaper here? How is this situation different than any other outsourcing from any other manufacturer? Just wait until the Unions on the other side of the pond read that one of their jobs is being outsourced. Nobody win with this announcement because they have just moved labor unrest to a different continent. The only way Ford comes out ahead on this is if this decision is used to get concessions from the UK Unions. Armed robbery without a gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 Just wait until the Unions on the other side of the pond read that one of their jobs is being outsourced. Nobody win with this announcement because they have just moved labor unrest to a different continent. You have a point. In Germany it is almost impossible to close a factory. I don't know what Ford is going to do when they stop exporting that ancient, 4.0L SOHC V6 ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ausrutherford Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 How is it a bone if the labor is cheaper here? How is this situation different than any other outsourcing from any other manufacturer? Just wait until the Unions on the other side of the pond read that one of their jobs is being outsourced. Nobody win with this announcement because they have just moved labor unrest to a different continent. The only way Ford comes out ahead on this is if this decision is used to get concessions from the UK Unions. Armed robbery without a gun. Not really...LAP wont be able to supply EU with all its Kuga needs, it will simply be overflow. Ex. EU will probobly start exportation to Argentina and Australia so LAP could export what EU plants lose over that deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 As a Kentuckian and a die hard Ford guy,I am overjoyed the Escape/Kuga is coming to Louisville...I love to tell the Toyota/Georgetown Ky. snobs and watch them spin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ausrutherford Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 I heard Louisville voted "yes" on the contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 The only way Ford comes out ahead on this is if this decision is used to get concessions from the UK Unions. Armed robbery without a gun. Why? The Kuga isn't made in the UK, IIRC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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