Some Lincoln Dealers Hesitant to Updgade

[mercury_1988]

Is Ford going to show the MCE MKS in the 2010 LA auto show ?

[Sevensecondsuv]

How about this? I've seen the new MKX and the new Edge....to be honest with you the MKX blew my socks off...I was shocked at how nice it was and the "presence" it had...

 

You must be easy to please. I just don't get my socks blown off by a front wheel drive wagon. No matter who it's made by and how gussied-up it may be.

[dwford]

I don't blame the Lincoln dealers for being cautious. They were promised for years a new generation of Mercury product, and never even got so much as a concept car. Now they are being asked to shell out big bucks ont he promise that the next generation of Lincolns will be unique product from the Fords. Based on what? Lincolns have been not much more than rebadged Fords for decades. The MCE MKS is still on the Taurus chassis, then what?

[Chester]

Well...I remodeled my F/L/M showroom 5 years ago to the tune of $1.3m. I have dedicated Lincoln loaners. I have Starbucks, Otis Spunkmeyer cookies, wireless. The local Lexus dealer benchmarked my store for his upgrade he never did. The only reason Ford can give me to add to my facility is that they don't want their Lincoln owners sitting next to their landscapers in the waiting area. Because apparently the assumption is landscapers cannot afford a Lexus. Pretty poor reason for me personally to spend big bucks. All I can think of is the Hummer quonset down the street. A $1M showroom debacle. Now it's a Kia showroom. Still trying to figure out how they will change the huge H into a K.

 

 

What's the name of this dealership, if you don't mind me asking?

[akirby]

I just don't get my socks blown off by a front wheel drive wagon. No matter who it's made by and how gussied-up it may be.

 

And we don't get our socks blown off by rock crawlers. Why do you have to disparage something just because YOU don't like it?

[campbell53]

What's the name of this dealership, if you don't mind me asking?

 

Campbell Ford Lincoln Mercury

Niles, MI

www.carsbycampbell.com

www.campbellsaleen.com

[Sevensecondsuv]

And we don't get our socks blown off by rock crawlers. Why do you have to disparage something just because YOU don't like it?

 

Sorry, that was a cheap shot. My point was that Lincoln isn't going to get much of anywhere if the best product can they come up with are re-grilled, gussied-up Edges, Flexes, and Tauruses. If I was a Lincoln dealer, there'd be no way I'm willing to spend $$$$$$$ to upgrade to Ford's desired showroom until Ford showed me some very significant new product (meaning RWD-based AWD, Lincoln-only powertrains (and not just 0.2" more stroke in a V6, resulting in 10 more HP), and riding on at least Lincoln-only stretched wheel-base versions of Ford platforms).

 

That being said, it's too bad the LS got cancelled instead of updated. They really had something going with it and that was the direction Lincoln needed to go if they were going to be a "true" luxury brand.

Edited October 26, 2010 by Sevensecondsuv

[Sevensecondsuv]

Oops. Double post.

Edited October 26, 2010 by Sevensecondsuv

[akirby]

Sorry, that was a cheap shot. My point was that Lincoln isn't going to get much of anywhere if the best product can they come up with are re-grilled, gussied-up Edges, Flexes, and Tauruses. If I was a Lincoln dealer, there'd be no way I'm willing to spend $$$$$$$ to upgrade to Ford's desired showroom until Ford showed me some very significant new product (meaning RWD-based AWD, Lincoln-only powertrains (and not just 0.2" more stroke in a V6, resulting in 10 more HP), and riding on at least Lincoln-only stretched wheel-base versions of Ford platforms).

 

That being said, it's too bad the LS got cancelled instead of updated. They really had something going with it and that was the direction Lincoln needed to go if they were going to be a "true" luxury brand.

 

Here's a deal for you - let's pretend we own Lexus. I'll take the profits from all the FWD based gussied up Toyota vehicles (ES, RX) and you can have the profits from the RWD stuff (LS, GS, IS, GX). Deal?

 

The LS was an example of good suspension engineering, but the MKS blows it away in terms of interior refinement and amenities and even powertrains. The platform itself was too expensive and too small and the engines were too small and too expensive. What Lincoln should have done is develop a new GRWD platform that could use the Ford corporate V8s with more profit at lower prices. But they didn't and now they're stuck catching up.

 

The point is they don't need RWD to be competitive. What they absolutely require are unique exterior designs/sheetmetal, world class interior design and materials, exclusive powertrains and other features like glass roofs, electronically controlled suspensions, ecoboost engines, etc. - all of which Ford has already announced.

[Sevensecondsuv]

Here's a deal for you - let's pretend we own Lexus. I'll take the profits from all the FWD based gussied up Toyota vehicles (ES, RX) and you can have the profits from the RWD stuff (LS, GS, IS, GX). Deal?

I've never paid any attention to Suxel and I don't plan to start now.

 

The LS was an example of good suspension engineering, but the MKS blows it away in terms of interior refinement and amenities and even powertrains. The platform itself was too expensive and too small and the engines were too small and too expensive. What Lincoln should have done is develop a new GRWD platform that could use the Ford corporate V8s with more profit at lower prices. But they didn't and now they're stuck catching up.

 

I agree mostly. Although the LS was really the size of the MKZ, not MKS. And yes, the interior appointments have definately gotten better in 5 years time. If they kept it and added the current powertrains, along with available AWD and the current level of interior appointment, it would truly be the type of world class product that Lincoln should be trying to build.

 

The point is they don't need RWD to be competitive. What they absolutely require are unique exterior designs/sheetmetal, world class interior design and materials, exclusive powertrains and other features like glass roofs, electronically controlled suspensions, ecoboost engines, etc. - all of which Ford has already announced.

 

I agree with the "gussied-up" attributes you mentioned, but I've not heard of any Lincoln-exclusive powertrains, unless a different tune for premium gas and 8 more HP counts as a different powertrain. I disagree about RWD, at least on the bigger and/or higher-end, and/or sporty models. I think the MKX, MKS, MKT, and MKZ are all good products (and getting better) for Lincoln, but Lincoln is never going to be taken seriously as a full-line luxury manufacturer until they come with at least a flagship RWD-based large sedan with gobbs of interior space and horsepower, and also a smaller, sporty RWD-based coupe or sedan. That's all.

Edited October 26, 2010 by Sevensecondsuv

[PREMiERdrum]

I've never paid any attention to Suxel and I don't plan to start now.

 

If you don't want to pay attention to arguably the most successful Luxury marquis, what position are you in to evaluate Lincoln's current position.

 

The MKX and MKZ are Lincolns volume products, just as the RX and ES are Lexus' volume products. That won't be changing any time soon.

[rkisler]

Here's a deal for you - let's pretend we own Lexus. I'll take the profits from all the FWD based gussied up Toyota vehicles (ES, RX) and you can have the profits from the RWD stuff (LS, GS, IS, GX). Deal?

 

The LS was an example of good suspension engineering, but the MKS blows it away in terms of interior refinement and amenities and even powertrains. The platform itself was too expensive and too small and the engines were too small and too expensive. What Lincoln should have done is develop a new GRWD platform that could use the Ford corporate V8s with more profit at lower prices. But they didn't and now they're stuck catching up.

 

The point is they don't need RWD to be competitive. What they absolutely require are unique exterior designs/sheetmetal, world class interior design and materials, exclusive powertrains and other features like glass roofs, electronically controlled suspensions, ecoboost engines, etc. - all of which Ford has already announced.

 

I agree with you completely and it is true that Luxus makes the lion's share of their profits on the fancy Toyotas (ES/RX).

 

I might enjoy driving a RWD car, but I don't believe Lincoln needs any to succeed.

 

Lincoln should be using Audi as a mental model. How, exactly, did they pull themselves up from the bootstraps from innovative AWD, but very sketchy quality in the 1980's to a sub-luxury brand, and now to a brand that is considered on a par with BMW and Mercedes and often times wins magazine comparos? Recognized worldwide. All of this while sharing components and platforms with VW (some, not all). And all of this primarily with FWD, but with a concentration on AWD.

 

It isn't just differentiation. It isn't just craftsmanship. It's building the brand step by step in a logical manner with a long-term goal where every product contributes to the achievement of that goal. Most fortunately, I think this is something Mullaly is very good at, and I trust he will guide the process.

[Fgts]

Well if that's the case, many/most of the dealers didn't keep up their end of the bargin either. I haven't dropped by the local Lincoln showroom since moving up here, but 3 of the 4 nearby L/M dealers when I lived in AZ looked like they were stuck in an early 90s time warp. And all but one of them either had no website or had such ridiculously basic/amateurish sites as to be laughable. It wasn't much better back East.

 

On the one hand, I understand perfectly dealers not wanting to give in on lowball offers, or not wanting to spend a chunk of their own profit in a depressed market without a certain product future. On the other, what has Ford done since Alan took over that would lead them to believe they can't deliver the goods? Didn't a number of dealers set off a ton of Internet buzz when they walked away from the recent meeting describing the new Flagship Lincoln as [like a] new Continental?

If i have to put up millions for a showroom (after 2 failed promises) the company better show me somthing more then some internet buzz "flagship", in which IMO is the next MKS. I don't care if Henry Ford came back to life and told me new products are comming .

[Fgts]

Here's a deal for you - let's pretend we own Lexus. I'll take the profits from all the FWD based gussied up Toyota vehicles (ES, RX) and you can have the profits from the RWD stuff (LS, GS, IS, GX)...............

The point is they don't need RWD to be competitive. What they absolutely require are unique exterior designs/sheetmetal, world class interior design and materials, exclusive powertrains and other features like glass roofs, electronically controlled suspensions, ecoboost engines, etc. - all of which Ford has already announced.

 

Not to really get into this but the top lux competion have all the tech Ford have already with RWD.

[akirby]

I've never paid any attention to Suxel and I don't plan to start now.

 

That's because you're not trying to run a multi-billion dollar business and make money. Mulally is and he has to pay attention to Lexus because that's the best model for Ford to make profitable luxury vehicles. You're only looking at it from the standpoint of one customer - you. And one customer won't keep Lincoln in business.

 

I agree mostly. Although the LS was really the size of the MKZ, not MKS. And yes, the interior appointments have definately gotten better in 5 years time. If they kept it and added the current powertrains, along with available AWD and the current level of interior appointment, it would truly be the type of world class product that Lincoln should be trying to build.

 

But that's just it - they couldn't have used the current powertrains. Even the 4.6L V8 wouldn't fit from the bottom up because of the suspension. That's where they screwed the pooch by co-developing the platform with Jaguar. They were stuck with the Jag 4.2L V8 as the largest engine and it was way too expensive compared to the current 5.0L Coyote. There were also hard limits built into the suspension geometry that hurt the LS in ride quality that couldn't be easily fixed. The bottom line was it was the wrong platform. The other big mistake was allowing the mustang to be built on essentially a one-off dedicated platform. Had they done GRWD 6 or 8 or 10 years ago and included the Mustang and Falcon and LS we wouldn't be having this conversation today.

 

I've not heard of any Lincoln-exclusive powertrains, unless a different tune for premium gas and 8 more HP counts as a different powertrain.

 

Gee - do you think maybe that's because they haven't come out yet? Ford JUST STARTED the Lincoln makeover - give them time. I believe we'll see a DI 3.7L as the base midsized V6 engine with 330+ hp as opposed to the Mustang's non-DI 3.7L or the revised Ford 3.5L 290 hp. Plus there is supposed to be a new smaller V6 for the C segment vehicle. All Lincolns will get unique sheetmetal and it appears the MKS will get a longer wheelbase than the Taurus. Add a glass roof option and electronically controlled shocks plus an interior upgrade and at least 400 HP Ecoboost 3.5L and it sure sounds class leading to me and won't be looked at as a "gussied up Taurus" despite the platform sharing.

 

I disagree about RWD, at least on the bigger and/or higher-end, and/or sporty models. I think the MKX, MKS, MKT, and MKZ are all good products (and getting better) for Lincoln, but Lincoln is never going to be taken seriously as a full-line luxury manufacturer until they come with at least a flagship RWD-based large sedan with gobbs of interior space and horsepower, and also a smaller, sporty RWD-based coupe or sedan. That's all.

 

So the A8 doesn't qualify as a flagship? It's not available as RWD either.

 

Would it be nice? Yes. Would I personally like it? Yes. Is it necessary for Lincoln to be successful? Absolutely not.

[akirby]

If i have to put up millions for a showroom (after 2 failed promises) the company better show me somthing more then some internet buzz "flagship", in which IMO is the next MKS. I don't care if Henry Ford came back to life and told me new products are comming .

 

So quit. Nobody is holding a gun to the dealer's heads telling them to spend the money or else. They have a business decision to make based on promises and what they've already seen from Ford's strategy with the Ford brand. It's not Ford's job to keep dealers in business. The dealers that want to stay in business will and the ones who don't will hold out for the biggest payout and go away quietly. Then Ford will be able to better support the smaller pool of remaining dealers.

[Sevensecondsuv]

If you don't want to pay attention to arguably the most successful Luxury marquis, what position are you in to evaluate Lincoln's current position.

Well, I'm Lincoln buyer/owner for starters.....

 

 

The MKX and MKZ are Lincolns volume products, just as the RX and ES are Lexus' volume products. That won't be changing any time soon.

 

I didn't say that they should get rid of the FWD volume products. Those definitely fill an important part of the lineup (arguably the most important). All I was stating was that, if they are to be taken seriously, Lincoln needs at least a couple models that consist of more than a Ford FWD platform and powertrain with Lincoln sheetmetal and a nicer interior. (a +7 horsepower premium fuel tune does NOT constitute a different powertrain).

 

Basically, my opinion is that I think Ford is nuts for trying to redo Lincoln before their GRWD woes are fixed. Until they get GRWD fixed, Ford just doesn't have the platforms off of which to build the models necessary for a competitive luxury brand. And I certainly don't blame the Lincoln dealers that aren't willing to upgrade their dealerships based on what Ford has shown/promised them.

Edited October 26, 2010 by Sevensecondsuv

[RichardJensen]

if they are to be taken seriously

Excuse me?

 

Ford's first duty is not to 'be taken seriously,' It is to make money.

[silvrsvt]

Basically, my opinion is that I think Ford is nuts for trying to redo Lincoln before their GRWD woes are fixed. Until they get GRWD fixed, Ford just doesn't have the platforms off of which to build the models necessary for a competitive luxury brand. And I certainly don't blame the Lincoln dealers that aren't willing to upgrade their dealerships based on what Ford has shown/promised them.

 

So a niche car that would sell less then 1500 units a month would automatically fix their image problems? I don't think RWD is the automatic fix for Lincoln.

 

 

[PREMiERdrum]

Basically, my opinion is that I think Ford is nuts for trying to redo Lincoln before their GRWD woes are fixed. And I certainly don't blame the Lincoln dealers that aren't willing to upgrade their dealerships based on what Ford has shown/promised them.

 

If they spend $1billion to bring out a stunning, low volume RWD coupe / convertible, but the volume products aren't up to par, what's the point? I'd be disappointed if they didn't get the MKX, MKS, MKZ, MKT, and Navigator up to world-class status before crafting a halo for the brand.

 

Would seeing a production version of one RWD car suddenly make all the dealers change their minds and decide to upgrade?

 

All of us here want Lincoln to build the world-class products we know they can, from the new C-segment sports crossover to a fullsized RWD flagship sedan.

 

Let's not forget, the mysterious 7th new Lincoln hasn't been shown yet, but the hints insiders are dropping are very encouraging.

[Fgts]

So quit. Nobody is holding a gun to the dealer's heads telling them to spend the money or else. They have a business decision to make based on promises and what they've already seen from Ford's strategy with the Ford brand. It's not Ford's job to keep dealers in business. The dealers that want to stay in business will and the ones who don't will hold out for the biggest payout and go away quietly. Then Ford will be able to better support the smaller pool of remaining dealers.

 

Someone said earlier "curing the heard"?, i think Ford knows many dealers won't go for that crap. Now the plan could backfire if you have too many dealers say "fuck off Ford" causing Ford to come to a table and wind-up with still too many dealers and /or Lincoln won't have any dealers in certian luxury metro areas like L.A., Miami, D.C area..

[Sevensecondsuv]

Excuse me?

 

Ford's first duty is not to 'be taken seriously,' It is to make money.

 

In the logical order of things, making money usually follows being taken seriously. Besides, it was Ford that stated the goal of making Lincoln into a world-class, competive luxury brand (i.e. "taken seriously" ). Point being that once Lincoln is taken seriously as a true luxury brand, a lot more buyers will be willing to at least take a look at Lincoln. This will improve sales across the entire lineup, including the money-making FWD volume Lincolns.

 

I would be content with the products Ford has shown/promised for Lincoln except this talk of "world class Luxury brand" that is coming out of the other side of Ford's mouth at the same time. All I'm doing is calling nonsense, saying it isn't going to work unless there is some different, better product.

 

If Lincoln can't make money on the type of products necessary for a world-class luxury brand, then they should just be content to sell gussied-up, FWD Fords and make a nice profit on them. But don't ask your dealers to drop $$$$$$$$ upgrading their stores to provide a "world-class luxury" experience.

Edited October 26, 2010 by Sevensecondsuv

[NickF1011]

Someone said earlier "curing the heard"?, i think Ford knows many dealers won't go for that crap. Now the plan could backfire if you have too many dealers say "fuck off Ford" causing Ford to come to a table and wind-up with still too many dealers and /or Lincoln won't have any dealers in certian luxury metro areas like L.A., Miami, D.C area..

 

Seeing how few dealers brands like Lexus get by with, I don't think having too few dealers is a concern Ford even has on their radar for Lincoln.

 

 

As for the demands for these "unique powertrains" some of you are clamoring for, who else offers these? All of Lexus's, Acura's, and Infiniti's engines are variants of engines available in Toyota, Honda, and Nissan products. The only "unique powertrains" Audi uses are in their uber-priced flagships, otherwise it is standard VW stuff with some tweaks. And what about Cadillac? Their last unique powertrain is dead with the Northstar, and do you really want Ford to immitate that??

 

Something with a little more oomph and some extra detail paid to NVH compared to the standard Ford fare would be more than satisfactory to fill all of the powertrain needs for Lincoln.

Edited October 26, 2010 by NickF1011

[RichardJensen]

In the logical order of things, making money usually follows being taken seriously

No, it does not.

 

Do people take blockbuster movies seriously?

 

Avatar, for crying out loud, was Dances With Wolves set on a CGI world stolen from Ferngully. It did not deserve to be taken seriously. But it sure did rake in the bucks.

[RichardJensen]

#1 grossing movie a couple weeks ago was Jackass.

 

Movie critics don't matter when it comes to public reception, and the sooner that lesson is realized by the wine-and-cheese cork-sniffers of automotive journalism (and their internet imitators) the better.