Some Lincoln Dealers Hesitant to Updgade

[Sevensecondsuv]

Yes. A start. A brand doesn't re-invent itself in a matter of a year or two. And well, even if the MKS was the vehicle you desire, with RWD, and a V8, all available tomorrow, would that fix Lincoln? Of course not. The MKS is a flagship in your eyes by default, simply because it is the largest and most expensive sedan in the lineup. Reality is, Lincoln's flagship, the vehicle they are most well known for over the past decade, and which has the highest transaction prices, has been and continues to be the Navigator. I believe that vehicle is far more important than the MKS in terms of keeping the Lincoln brand (and its dealers) profitable.

 

Ah yes, the Navigator. I saw a brand new one the other day - A farmer was dragging a grain wagon through a corn field with it. All I could think was "man, the price of corn must have gone up a lot lately!"

[NickF1011]

BMW and Mercedes (the standard bearers of the luxury market) seem to make plenty of money on RWD luxury vehicles - all without lesser brands to do the platform developement for for them.

 

Plenty of BMW's and Mercedes sold around the world ARE "lesser" than the versions we see in the U.S. The fact that they can sell stripper models in markets globally is the only reason they can sell them at all. Taxi anyone?

 

 

 

Edited October 26, 2010 by NickF1011

[akirby]

My argument is that the Ford brand isn't done until they have developed more RWD platforms (GRWD) to build a resurgent Lincoln off of.

 

 

Ford more or less said that Lincoln's flagship will be the MKS for the next 2-3 years. While putting it on the 4" longer Flex/MKT platform along with different sheetmetal is a laudable first step towards the necessary differentation, it won't be complete until the engine is pointed north-south with the rear axle being the primary drive axle, and is making 10-20% better power numbers than the Ford version. This is the flagship mind you, it should be most luxurious and performance oriented Lincoln you can buy. I am not advocating this kind of treatment for every Lincoln model - I don't think they are trying to complete with the likes of Astin-Martin.

 

Saying that Lincoln MUST have RWD platforms is why Richard called you a snob, because you're totally ignoring sales and profits in favor of image and snobbishness. The only thing that spending $1B or more on such a platform will get you is good magazine reviews - it won't get you good profits.

 

A properly done MKS with higher end materials, 400 hp/AWD and stretched wheelbase with all the required luxury amenities will generate way more sales and profit than a RWD flagship costing 10 times as much and selling at half the volume.

 

It's not that we don't WANT what you're proposing. We'd like to see a RWD flagship sedan and a performance coupe like the MKR. We would. But it's not realistic to say it's necessary to turn the Lincoln brand around especially given where they are at right now.

 

Like Nick said - if they're still putzing around with rebadged Fords and only 10 more hp in 3-4 more years, then you can call it a failure. But that's not the plan and based on what they did with Ford I have every confidence that they'll make the same turnaround with Lincoln.

 

BTW - based on some insider comments I wouldn't at all be surprised to see a Falcon based MKR with a supercharged 5.0L. I think that would fit your requirements for Lincoln.

[Deanh]

What investment? Separate, upgraded showrooms? Isn't that what they're asking for now? What, exactly, has Ford required from Lincoln dealers in the past that is at odds with what they're asking for now?

left them to languish with substandard FLOORED product to survive on USED CAR proceeds to pay overheads such as Medical, workmans comp, rent, power and other fisxed expense....enough for you?.....I SEE the numbers from the local dealer just down the road EVERY WEEK....there is NO way hes surviving on the 30 cars a month hes selling.........but hey, fior a few Million weel change all that...no guarantees though just cough up the cash if you wish to remain in business...oh, and we WONT show you whats up our sleeves...That Kirby is VEGAS tactics....who are the odds in favor of??????......

[Deanh]

Years of investment in their Lincoln facilities? Really? Do I look like I just fell off the turnip truck?

are you guys actually serious thinking the ONLY monetary outlay to lincoln dealers is in facilities and amenities?....SERIOUSLY?.....they have been in survival mode for years.....

[Deanh]

What investment? Separate, upgraded showrooms? Isn't that what they're asking for now? What, exactly, has Ford required from Lincoln dealers in the past that is at odds with what they're asking for now?

most, if not all lincoln dealerships here are/ were standalone ( with Mercury ) of course....

[NickF1011]

left them to languish with substandard FLOORED product to survive on USED CAR proceeds to pay overheads such as Medical, workmans comp, rent, power and other fisxed expense....enough for you?.....I SEE the numbers from the local dealer just down the road EVERY WEEK....there is NO way hes surviving on the 30 cars a month hes selling.........but hey, fior a few Million weel change all that...no guarantees though just cough up the cash if you wish to remain in business...oh, and we WONT show you whats up our sleeves...That Kirby is VEGAS tactics....who are the odds in favor of??????......

 

In all honesty, Ford is likely banking on many of those dealerships closing. How can any dealer survive selling only 30 vehicles a month...unless you sold Ferraris. :D

[Sevensecondsuv]

BTW - based on some insider comments I wouldn't at all be surprised to see a Falcon based MKR with a supercharged 5.0L. I think that would fit your requirements for Lincoln.

 

Sounds like my kind of Lincoln! Now can I please have it with a manual transmission!

[RichardJensen]

Ah yes, the Navigator. I saw a brand new one the other day - A farmer was dragging a grain wagon through a corn field with it. All I could think was "man, the price of corn must have gone up a lot lately!"

You don't know the half of it.

 

http://futures.tradingcharts.com/chart/CN/M

http://www.ams.usda.gov/mnreports/sf_gr110.txt

 

SD will see $5 bids at local elevators before the end of the year.

[RichardJensen]

So based on the "new", "correct" way of thinking (which you guys do a great job of preaching), there is no way on earth that Ford can profitably make a true RWD luxury car so why even try.

Yep. That's it in a nutshell. Ford isn't selling 1M RWD sedans/coupes per year (BMW, MB) so, uh yeah. That's what we're saying.

[akirby]

most, if not all lincoln dealerships here are/ were standalone ( with Mercury ) of course....

 

And I'm still waiting to hear the investment that Lincoln has required of them in the past. I would argue that the problem has been that too many dealers have NOT invested in their Lincoln showrooms.

 

And what about Mercury? How much did Ford invest in Mercury just to keep the stand alone Lincoln/Mercury dealers in business?

 

If I was a dealer and expected to stay in business selling Lincolns then you better believe I'd be looking to upgrade my showroom - how else can you stay competitive?

 

Has Ford product planning and past management made bad decisions that negatively impacted dealers? Of course.

 

So how do you propose Ford handle the situation?

[RichardJensen]

are you guys actually serious thinking the ONLY monetary outlay to lincoln dealers is in facilities and amenities?....SERIOUSLY?.....they have been in survival mode for years.....

You said that Lincoln dealers have been investing in their dealerships for years. That's about as absurd a statement as I've ever seen you make, Dean.

 

Have Lincoln dealers spent money? Yes. But as a group, they've invested very little.

[Deanh]

In all honesty, Ford is likely banking on many of those dealerships closing. How can any dealer survive selling only 30 vehicles a month...unless you sold Ferraris. :D

and product that has been supplied till now has nothing to do with that correct?......and NOW the manufacturer that has supplied said product expects/ DEMANDS a cash outlay?....SHOW the product to the dealer base....thats all I'm saying....so far its all talk....like I said Kirby, for 25 mill up front I'll give you the winning lotto numbers for the 50 mill prise....

[Deanh]

You said that Lincoln dealers have been investing in their dealerships for years. That's about as absurd a statement as I've ever seen you make, Dean.

 

Have Lincoln dealers spent money? Yes. But as a group, they've invested very little.

Richard, the costs of staying open havent been helped by having product that wasnt bringing people in...bleeding red and keeping the doors open has been dependent either on their own investment or relying on used inventory....Ford hasnt really helped Lincoln dealers for a while, its definitely getting better but tio all of a sudden lay demands at the people you have ignored for so long after a short resurrgence is a tad preposterous. Especially if you are unwilling to show the people dependent on your product, future items they are expected to pin their hopes on.....magic beans anyone? And Fixed expenses in my mind ARE investments from ownership at the cost of doing business....and if theres nothing selling then they are burdensome

[RichardJensen]

Especially if you are unwilling to show the people dependent on your product, future items they are expected to pin their hopes on.....magic beans anyone?

They showed the principals everything. The RWD thing is 1) a low volume proposition, and 2) certainly not greenlighted, therefore it doesn't figure.

 

And Fixed expenses in my mind ARE investments from ownership at the cost of doing business....and if theres nothing selling then they are burdensome

Fixed expenses aren't investments. Say you're going to sell your house. Does it make the house more valuable if you say, "Oh, and we paid the gas bill every month!!!!"

 

Lincoln dealerships have been money pits, mostly, and that's why most of them look the way they do. I understand this, and I can sympathize with dealers that have lost money on Lincoln for years being asked to invest in Lincoln upgrades.

 

But let's not insist that Ford is asking Lincoln dealers to do something they've already been doing.

Edited October 26, 2010 by RichardJensen

[Deanh]

And I'm still waiting to hear the investment that Lincoln has required of them in the past. I would argue that the problem has been that too many dealers have NOT invested in their Lincoln showrooms.

 

And what about Mercury? How much did Ford invest in Mercury just to keep the stand alone Lincoln/Mercury dealers in business?

 

If I was a dealer and expected to stay in business selling Lincolns then you better believe I'd be looking to upgrade my showroom - how else can you stay competitive?

 

Has Ford product planning and past management made bad decisions that negatively impacted dealers? Of course.

 

So how do you propose Ford handle the situation?

see, i'm trying to look at it from both sides, but why should dealers outlay money if Ford is unwilling to show them what they should pin their hopes on....this is a ctach 22....why should I trust someone that has left me to languish for so long? See?.....and PS, a nice showroom is NOT the secret to sales sucess...PRODUCT comes first.....( I'm embarrased to say this but I still have popcorn ceilings on my 10ft by 10ft office. Our store is in DIRE need of upgrades, but its the LEAST of our troubles right now )

[fordmantpw]

But let's not insist that Ford is asking Lincoln dealers to do something they've already been doing.

 

And if the dealerships HAVE been investing, then their cash outlay should be minimal this time around since they should been about up to par already.

[fordmantpw]

see, i'm trying to look at it from both sides, but why should dealers outlay money if Ford is unwilling to show them what they should pin their hopes on....this is a ctach 22....why should I trust someone that has left me to languish for so long? See?.....and PS, a nice showroom is NOT the secret to sales sucess...PRODUCT comes first.....( I'm embarrased to say this but I still have popcorn ceilings on my 10ft by 10ft office. Our store is in DIRE need of upgrades, but its the LEAST of our troubles right now )

 

Yes it is a catch 22...but would expect a "luxury" customer to step foot in said office and plunk down $60k for a luxury car? A $60k pickup? Sure. A $60k luxury car? Many luxury car buyers wouldn't be caught dead in a place like that!

[Deanh]

They showed the principals everything. The RWD thing is 1) a low volume proposition, and 2) certainly not greenlighted, therefore it doesn't figure.

 

 

Fixed expenses aren't investments. Say you're going to sell your house. Does it make the house more valuable if you say, "Oh, and we paid the gas bill every month!!!!"

 

Lincoln dealerships have been money pits, mostly, and that's why most of them look the way they do. I understand this, and I can sympathize with dealers that have lost money on Lincoln for years being asked to invest in Lincoln upgrades.

 

But let's not insist that Ford is asking Lincoln dealers to do something they've already been doing.

not going to get wrapped up in the semantics of the word "investment"...so lets just call it costs to be a Lincoln franchaise...its easier. And I just think it sucks ethically and morally if Ford leverages dealers that have been struggling on the premise of theres "light" at the end of the tunnel...add cliche "Just trust us"....ahem!....Now, personally i think the future is ripe for Lincoln dealers, and i hope they do what is necessary....but "bullying " dealers that have stuck with them for better or worse for such a long time, angers me to say the least.

[Deanh]

Yes it is a catch 22...but would expect a "luxury" customer to step foot in said office and plunk down $60k for a luxury car? A $60k pickup? Sure. A $60k luxury car? Many luxury car buyers wouldn't be caught dead in a place like that!

not quite sure that is true, what if a "substandard" dealer had cheaper pricing ( perhaps because their overheads were less ) or better customer service, or Service/ Parts dept?.....I for one are NOT impressed by dealership "Egos gone wild" premises, first thing I think is they are making way too much money......that said, there ARE some real crap holes.....but I also know a few dealers ( and one I had the pleasure of working for ) that are no longer due to adding to their never ending bills, through agreeing to "improvements".....

[RichardJensen]

not going to get wrapped up in the semantics of the word "investment"...so lets just call it costs to be a Lincoln franchaise...its easier. And I just think it sucks ethically and morally if Ford leverages dealers that have been struggling on the premise of theres "light" at the end of the tunnel...add cliche "Just trust us"....ahem!....Now, personally i think the future is ripe for Lincoln dealers, and i hope they do what is necessary....but "bullying " dealers that have stuck with them for better or worse for such a long time, angers me to say the least.

Dean, they showed them everything. There's no 'just trust us.'

 

Forget about the RWD thingy, it's irrelevant. What they showed is what the dealers have to bet on.

 

I think the problem, and it's a tough one, is that Ford is basically setting a minimum volume target for Lincoln dealers without explicitly setting a minimum volume.

 

And yeah, that stinks for a lot of Lincoln dealers that have lost money on the brand for the last 10+ years.

Edited October 26, 2010 by RichardJensen

[fordmantpw]

not quite sure that is true, what if a "substandard" dealer had cheaper pricing ( perhaps because their overheads were less ) or better customer service, or Service/ Parts dept?.....I for one are NOT impressed by dealership "Egos gone wild" premises, first thing I think is they are making way too much money......that said, there ARE some real crap holes.....but I also know a few dealers ( and one I had the pleasure of working for ) that are no longer due to adding to their never ending bills, through agreeing to "improvements".....

 

I'm with you...I'm not ostentatious, and I don't buy into the "fancier is better" approach either, but a lot of luxury car buyers are. Hell, that's why a lot of them buy luxury cars in the first place!

[akirby]

see, i'm trying to look at it from both sides, but why should dealers outlay money if Ford is unwilling to show them what they should pin their hopes on

 

But as Richard pointed out - they HAVE shown them everything they can guarantee right now. 7 vehicles including a new C segment vehicle. Unique powertrains and features like glass roofs and electronic suspensions. I'm sure they've seen the MKS refresh. What more do they need to see?

 

Ford has set a new standard for Lincoln, starting with the products and extending to warranties, maintenance and service (requiring like loaner vehicles). This requires investment by most dealers so they have a choice to make.

 

I'll ask again - if what Ford is doing is so bad - TELL US WHAT THEY SHOULD BE DOING. Stop whining and offer alternatives.

 

My point is without significant investments the existing Lincoln dealers won't be successful anyway. Perhaps they should kill the Lincoln brand, get rid of all the dealers and open up a new brand like the Japanese brands did and start fresh from scratch. Because as I see it that's the only real alternative for Ford to have a world class luxury brand.

Edited October 26, 2010 by akirby

[grbeck]

No, it does not.

 

Do people take blockbuster movies seriously?

 

Avatar, for crying out loud, was Dances With Wolves set on a CGI world stolen from Ferngully. It did not deserve to be taken seriously. But it sure did rake in the bucks.

 

You might have thought that Avatar was silly (and I fell asleep halfway through it), but it made lots of money, so you'd better believe that the People Who Matter in Hollywood take it seriously, and take James Cameron seriously as well. It all makes it much easier for him to get his next project greenlighted. In Hollywood, that is what really matters.

 

As for Lincoln - yes, a dedicated, rear-wheel-drive platform doesn't make economic sense. But Lincoln still needs something to make people sit up and take notice, and while the MKS and MKX are nice vehicles, they really don't stand out that much in the today's crowded marketplace. If I'm going to spend big bucks to upgrade the dealership, I would hope that Ford has the equivalent of a 1961 Continental somewhere in that portfolio of future products.

Edited October 26, 2010 by grbeck

[campbell53]

But as Richard pointed out - they HAVE shown them everything they can guarantee right now. 7 vehicles including a new C segment vehicle. Unique powertrains and features like glass roofs and electronic suspensions. I'm sure they've seen the MKS refresh. What more do they need to see?

 

Ford has set a new standard for Lincoln, starting with the products and extending to warranties, maintenance and service (requiring like loaner vehicles). This requires investment by most dealers so they have a choice to make.

 

I'll ask again - if what Ford is doing is so bad - TELL US WHAT THEY SHOULD BE DOING. Stop whining and offer alternatives.

 

My point is without significant investments the existing Lincoln dealers won't be successful anyway. Perhaps they should kill the Lincoln brand, get rid of all the dealers and open up a new brand like the Japanese brands did and start fresh from scratch. Because as I see it that's the only real alternative for Ford to have a world class luxury brand.

 

They didn't show us squat ubout upcoming products. Just the updates/redos of current product. They wedged the new CUV into a graph labeled 2010-2015. No pics or anything for us to get excited about. It was all LEXUS LEXUS LEXUS/MKX MKZ MKX MKZ. Not a word about anything else. A cryptic picture of some tailight on some future vehicle. Who knows what the hell that was. I really was disappointed in the presentation. Not saying I won't step up to the plate and remain Lincoln but it is all hope and faith on my part.

Edited October 26, 2010 by campbell53