7Mary3 Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 Wow- 330HP and it still has no guts? That is a pretty good torque number too if my memory is correct. Is it an Allison? Also it doesn't even have a class 7 box. Assuming its a 33,000 gvw, most people would put a 6/8 yard box on it. As to your comment on the DNA-or lack of it, that was my point about a knowledgeable Ford dealer putting a big investment into an operation unless they have an idea that changes are on the horizon-lets face it, the current truck is the oldest of all the class 6-7 offerings out there. Yes, it has an Allison, and I don't know what rear end gears it has. We install a 5yd. box on a truck like this to make it harder to overload. California says 32,000#'s max. on a 2 axle, and since we usually have the bed full of broken paving, it gets heavy fast. This truck also pulls around a backhoe/loader. Another common setup around here is the 'Super 10', which is a 10yd. box on a tandem chassis with an air-lift pusher. That can max out at 44,000#'s. A few use a boost-a-load instead of the pusher, but that way you can't pull anything with the 4th. axle down. You might very well be on to something about your dealer. Let's hope so! I have heard some rumors about 'Blue Diamond' lately, but I don't want to repeat them just yet. I'm looking for some verification. Keep your eye on Navistar. They are about to open a plant in Alabama, and it looks like Chatham is closed for good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Yes, it has an Allison, and I don't know what rear end gears it has. We install a 5yd. box on a truck like this to make it harder to overload. California says 32,000#'s max. on a 2 axle, and since we usually have the bed full of broken paving, it gets heavy fast. This truck also pulls around a backhoe/loader. Another common setup around here is the 'Super 10', which is a 10yd. box on a tandem chassis with an air-lift pusher. That can max out at 44,000#'s. A few use a boost-a-load instead of the pusher, but that way you can't pull anything with the 4th. axle down. You might very well be on to something about your dealer. Let's hope so! I have heard some rumors about 'Blue Diamond' lately, but I don't want to repeat them just yet. I'm looking for some verification. Keep your eye on Navistar. They are about to open a plant in Alabama, and it looks like Chatham is closed for good. 10-4 on the 5 yd. Actually, herein the northeast, I think just about every state is at 35,000 for 2 axles. Even so, most new "stock" dumps are 33,000 FET cheaters and gthe dealers install 6-8 yard boxes-and let the owner fend for himself. I gather you are in the utility business and I would say National Grid up here has a lot of 750's and the newest dumps have low side boards-and like you they are set up to pull a tag as yours are. In fact it may have even made the news out on the left coast as about two months ago a supervisor was testing a F'liner M-2 while pulling a tag that had a 580 Case on it. Drivers had complained the truck was "unsafe". Well in any case the unit ended up in a bad accident on I-495, tangled with a van and the whole unit including the mini van went off the road. The Case "fell off" the trailer, landed on the van and killed an elderly woman. The investigation continues. I find it hard to believe that National Grid would run anything but the safest equipment-i.e., no "made in China binders etc. but we shall see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 10-4 on the 5 yd. Actually, herein the northeast, I think just about every state is at 35,000 for 2 axles. Even so, most new "stock" dumps are 33,000 FET cheaters and gthe dealers install 6-8 yard boxes-and let the owner fend for himself. I gather you are in the utility business and I would say National Grid up here has a lot of 750's and the newest dumps have low side boards-and like you they are set up to pull a tag as yours are. In fact it may have even made the news out on the left coast as about two months ago a supervisor was testing a F'liner M-2 while pulling a tag that had a 580 Case on it. Drivers had complained the truck was "unsafe". Well in any case the unit ended up in a bad accident on I-495, tangled with a van and the whole unit including the mini van went off the road. The Case "fell off" the trailer, landed on the van and killed an elderly woman. The investigation continues. I find it hard to believe that National Grid would run anything but the safest equipment-i.e., no "made in China binders etc. but we shall see. Yup, I work for a utility. Big one, too. I hate to hear about accidents like that. The C.H.P. requires 6 separate tie-downs on a 580, one on each corner of the tractor, one across the front bucket, one across the rear (even though our trailers have a below deck well for the backhoe bucket), and of course locking binders. I prefer the screw type over the over-center. Even with all that chain, flip the mess and you will probably loose the machine. 9 times out of 10 if the driver is complaining about how the rig handles, he doesn't have enough load on the hitch. We like to weld stops on the deck of the trailer so the operator can position the machine right every time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 650/750 moving to OHAP. Will Ford consolidate heavy duty E-Series with 650/750 into one family? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 650/750 moving to OHAP. Will Ford consolidate heavy duty E-Series with 650/750 into one family? Highly unlikely. There will be a school bus and motorhome version of the F650/750. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 650/750 moving to OHAP. Will Ford consolidate heavy duty E-Series with 650/750 into one family? Not a chance unless Ford designs a next generation in house. The current 650 and 750 belong to Navistar. And with 650 and 750 sales likely to barely pass 8,000 this year............ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 (edited) That was pretty much the idea I had. The E-Series will no longer need to share hardpoints with a van, and being able to go, say, Class 3-6 with certain dimensions in common may take some of the sting out of changing dimensions for body builders. Then you could do a larger model, with some shared interior bits/wiring/whatnot for Class 6-8. I figure you'll have some overlap in class 6. Edited October 5, 2011 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 That was pretty much the idea I had. The E-Series will no longer need to share hardpoints with a van, and being able to go, say, Class 3-6 with certain dimensions in common may take some of the sting out of changing dimensions for body builders. Then you could do a larger model, with some shared interior bits/wiring/whatnot for Class 6-8. I figure you'll have some overlap in class 6. Good idea, sounds a a bit like GM's GMT-560 medium duty platform. Those trucks used many full size van components in their cabs and interiors. Funny you bring it up because about 2 years ago there were rumors Ohio was going to get a new product, and some speculated it would be the 650's and 750's. Looks like the new product will be the large Transits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 Good idea, sounds a a bit like GM's GMT-560 medium duty platform. Those trucks used many full size van components in their cabs and interiors. Funny you bring it up because about 2 years ago there were rumors Ohio was going to get a new product, and some speculated it would be the 650's and 750's. Looks like the new product will be the large Transits. Actually, the Transits are going to KCAP. It was part of the new agreement with the UAW: Escape to Louisville, Transit to KCAP, 650/750 to OHAP and Fusion overflow to AAI. But I posted this here because I didn't think you read the other threads :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 650/750 moving to OHAP. Will Ford consolidate heavy duty E-Series with 650/750 into one family? Is this confirmed in the the explanation of the pending contract settlement? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 Not a chance unless Ford designs a next generation in house. The current 650 and 750 belong to Navistar. And with 650 and 750 sales likely to barely pass 8,000 this year............ What "belongs" to Navistar? Its a Navistar chassis with a Ford cab and vendor components. The same 650/750 "sheetmetal" was built on a "Ford" chassis at Cautillan from 2000 until 2003. I can't imnagine it would be too difficult to dust off all the old cad files and go from there. But in any case, my bet would be it will be a significantly different vehicle. That is if Ford is in fact committed to the commercial truck market. And to those who view it as a monumental task, I say no greater a task then the one facing Hino when they entered the class 6,7 conventional market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 Presumably, it's in the explanation of the contract, or something, as it's been widely reported today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 Presumably, it's in the explanation of the contract, or something, as it's been widely reported today. 10-4, The coverage in Det. News was vague but the Free Press story specifically said .."medium duty to Ohio previously scheduled for Mexico" or words to that effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 10-4, The coverage in Det. News was vague but the Free Press story specifically said .."medium duty to Ohio previously scheduled for Mexico" or words to that effect. I found it too. Good, maybe we will see a real Ford medium duty again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 What UAW has published so far UAW-Ford-Contract-Summary.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 (edited) What UAW has published so far Thanks TOW, that was a great read and explained a lot. There's much for the membership to think about and decide but that looks to be about as good as it gets, a good balance of payments and improved rates for new hires signals that Ford is keen to do the deal... Let's hope the UAW rebuilds their membership and all prosper from this deal... Edited October 5, 2011 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 Thanks TOW, that was a great read and explained a lot. There's much for the membership to think about and decide but that looks to be about as good as it gets, a good balance of payments and improved rates for new hires signals that Ford is keen to do the deal... Let's hope the UAW rebuilds their membership and all prosper from this deal... Amen, Hard to believe that there are guys like this Walkowicz (sp?) who I believe is a DTP employee who still think its 1947. My hope (for the sake of my grandkids) is that the brighter UAW people recognize this is a good long term deal for them-and that their ONLY shot at success and a better future is directly linked to Ford's success. Next hope? That organized labor across the board is paying attention and gets this same message. I think Ford's stand on the bailout, and their actions in this round of negotiations may prove to be a significant turning point as far as American industry is concerned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lfeg Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 From what I have read this morning, E Series will phase out of the OHAP by the end of the new contract period. I have not seen anything on when the mediums wil start production. I can see E Series cutaways being built for a while longer than the E Series vans, but I expect that they will fade away also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 Yup, I work for a utility. Big one, too. I hate to hear about accidents like that. The C.H.P. requires 6 separate tie-downs on a 580, one on each corner of the tractor, one across the front bucket, one across the rear (even though our trailers have a below deck well for the backhoe bucket), and of course locking binders. I prefer the screw type over the over-center. Even with all that chain, flip the mess and you will probably loose the machine. 9 times out of 10 if the driver is complaining about how the rig handles, he doesn't have enough load on the hitch. We like to weld stops on the deck of the trailer so the operator can position the machine right every time. For sure. There was a lot of discussion about this accident on the TBN site and I raised the point that it is very difficult to load a 580 TLB incorrectly on the short tags that outfits like National Grid use. The deck is short! But for sure tongue weight is critical. I was moving a Kubota TLB from Jersey to Boston a few years ago. I had a contractor bring the trailer from NJ to New Haven and then I was going to have NH hook up and bring it to Boston. Well the guy moving it from Jersey has a heavy 350-and he is a class 1 driver. New Haven hooks up their 250 4 x 4 maintenance truck to it, and jumps on I-91 at 0630 headed north. Within two miles, driver loses it and does a complete 180 in rush hour traffic. Complete unit facing south. Never touched a car and the only casualty was a blown tire on the trailer-some days you get lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 The more I think about this move to Ohio for 650/750, the more the pieces start to fit-I think. As many have suggested, one option for Ford was to utilize E series cab components as GM did with their vans for the next mediums. Wouldn't make much sense to spend that money however with an existing old platform right? Along comes Transit! look at the glass house, door set up etc. - a modern design that looks like if you set it up on a big truck chassis you would start right off with great visibility- it even has dropped vent windows which HN-80 started 12 years ago! Now just about every class 6,7,8 truck has that design feature. Let's see-how would that glass house look on a new Cargo chassis with a nice fiberglass/composite tilt hood-and a 14,000 lb. front axle and a 40,000 lb rear tandem- that should move a container from the intermodal facility to the customer very nicely! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 That transit cab is based on, among other things, nothing larger than a 3.5L 5 cylinder in the engine bay and no compliance with US crash standards. I doubt any cab capable of housing a 6+ L Cummins I-6 will look even remotely similar to the Transit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 That transit cab is based on, among other things, nothing larger than a 3.5L 5 cylinder in the engine bay and no compliance with US crash standards. I doubt any cab capable of housing a 6+ L Cummins I-6 will look even remotely similar to the Transit. Ford could use a Transit windshield, dash, HVAC, doors, and a section of roof to create a medium duty cab with a fiberglass tilt hood/fender assembly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 This is good news. Looks like the rumors I was hearing about Blue Diamond were true. I think chances are when the medium duty goes into production at Avon Lake it will be substantially different than the current 650 and 750, and that's not a bad thing. The demise of Blue Diamond raises another interesting question: Will Navistar look for another jont venture to replace the lost revenue? Keep your eyes open...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 Ford could use a Transit windshield, dash, HVAC, doors, and a section of roof to create a medium duty cab with a fiberglass tilt hood/fender assembly. Thank you-exactly my point. Richard, correct, you are not going to stuff a 10 or 15 liter engine into a Transit engine compartment and a lot of of design integration has to be done but the "glass house" and associated assemblies have to represent a significant savings. Granted the stresses that are imposed on a vehicle at 33,000 or worst case 60,000 gvw or 80,000 gcw are not the same as a vehicle with a 6600 lb gvw but in keeping with the "one Ford" theme and the need to get max utilization out of components I have to believe sensible use of Transit components has to be in the cards. By the way-nothing new here-its been done in the past- C series morphs into H--good, bad or otherwise it got Ford into OTR diesels. F series at 106" BBC morphs into N series at 89" BBC etc. On the downside, it doesn't look like Ohio has a lot of money compared to the other plants so perhaps this won't be as dramtic as some of us had hoped with respect to class 6 and 7. You don't suppose Freightliner gave Ford a good deal on some of the production equipment from the St. Thomas Sterling plant??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ehaase Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 Highly unlikely. There will be a school bus and motorhome version of the F650/750. Who would manufacture the school bus body? Blue Bird manufactures its own chassis; Freightliner uses only Thomas bodies; and International uses only AmTran (Ward) bodies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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