Hybrids In Winter/colder Climate

[MineralstangGT]

So as I'm deciding which Fusion model to possibly get on my way to work this morning, it dawned on me that it was pretty cold outside this morning. Its only going to get colder in Denver as the winter comes in to season. How does the hybrid system do in colder climates? Does it take longer to warm up because the motor is not constantly running? Also can't preheat the car in any way either right? Any information would be helpful. Thanks!

[JSKershaw]

I have asked the same question in another post many weeks ago and never did get an answer Basically I was asking if the car has an electric heater or if it pulls the heat from the engine. Everything else is electric, so it only makes sense to have an electric heater.

[vincep5]

I live near Chicago and I owned a Civic Hybrid for almost 7 years. I kept it always in the garage, so the cold didnt get to my battery. It was a nickel metal hydride battery. I know the newer batteries are lithium ion and are a better battery.

I didnt get another hybrid because of how badly my battery was deteriorating in the past year. I was over my battery warranty when the IMA light came on.

I must admit, it was a great car. I had still original brakes on it after 91K and only performed basic maintenance on it.

 

During the winter, auto-stop would usually not activate because it disables under a certain temperature. And if its realllyyyyyyy cold the other normal battery would crank the starter.

 

I see that the FFH has pretty decent power and really good MPGs. I know there are a lot of FFH owners and future owners on this forum. I'd like to hear how it performs for you especially if you are getting the claimed 47MPGs

[lolder]

If you call for vehicle cabin heat in a hybrid, the engine ( ICE ) will run to satisfy it. All vehicles use more fuel in cold weather because of the denser air. There are also certain system temperature requirements. Because the hybrids use so little fuel, the various heating requirements which need the same energy regardless of the type of vehicle cause a greater numerical drop in the mpg. This does not mean the hybrids are worse in cold weather. All the energy in gas-electric hybrids come from gas. I don't think they have electric heat. If it did, the ICE would need to run to recharge the electrical energy used. That could be done when the ICE is running for other reasons. If you start the hybrid Fords either directly or with an optional remote wireless and the HVAC is set to "Auto", the system will heat or cool the car and the ICE will run as required. It appears that heat pump ( HPAC ) systems for EV/HEV cars are almost here.

Edited November 14, 2012 by lolder

[jeff_h]

I believe the car gets the heat from the engine, which has to run as needed to keep the emissions system at temperature and thus keep the heating system at temperature as well. A couple years back I heard a funny gurgling sound in the dash so when I had the O2 sensor replaced I asked about this and they said that the antifreeze was low so there was air in the system. So if it's running behind the dash somewhere, that makes me think there's a heater core and thus heated like a conventional car. You can probably search rockauto.com or other parts places and see a heater core as a possible replacement part, but I've never checked so I can't say for sure - but that's my theory anyway.

 

Just operate the car as normal but be warned that when it gets cold in the winter the MPG takes a big hit... the same goes for conventional cars, but you will notice what probably will seem to be a bigger hit in the winter. In my 130k in a Prius and 140k in a FFH the winter MPG is about 10% worse and 20% during a real cold snap. Knowing that those in Canada may refer to a mid-Atlantic "cold snap" as "light jacket weather", your MPG may take a bigger hit BUT will still be a lot better than a conventional car.

[MineralstangGT]

I live near Chicago and I owend a Civic Hybrid for almost 7 years. I kept it always in the garage, so the cold didnt get to my battery. It was a nickel metal hydride battery. I know the newer batteries are lithium ion and are a better battery.

I didnt get another hybrid because of how badly my battery was deteriorating in the past year. I was over my battery warranty when the IMA light came on.

I must admit, it was a great car. I had still original brakes on it after 91K and only performed basic maintenance on it.

 

During the winter, auto-stop would usually not activate because it disables under a certain temperature. And if its realllyyyyyyy cold the other normal battery would crank the starter.

 

I see that the FFH has pretty decent power and really good MPGs. I know there are a lot of FFH owners and future owners on this forum. I'd like to hear how it performs for you especially if you are getting the claimed 47MPGs

 

OK, so in the winter the car would pretty much start like a non-hybrid on cold mornings and the engine would just run? On would it still just try to use the electric power first? That would essentially mean you would have to drive the car to make sure the heater would get warmed up. Maybe it does have an electric heater? Can anyone confirm that?

 

I just saw the previous replies. Thanks!

Edited November 14, 2012 by MineralstangGT

[akirby]

The engine will run as needed to provide cabin heating. The battery doesn't help with heating.

[scott029]

The Energi will have an electric heat/preheat system, the hybrid does not.

It relies on the engine heating up to deliver heat. When it's cold out the engine will

start right away. The best thing to do is keep the car warm, by keeping it inside a

garage (heated would be best but not the best way to save energy) and to keep the

engine block heater plugged in. It will warm up faster so you get heat quicker and so

the whole system can operate efficiently. The gas engine operates much more fuel

efficient when it's warm and out of the open loop stage of warming up.

My experience with my previous hybrid ('06 Civic Hybrid) was that hybrids will suffer

less fuel mileage (% wise) in winter than non hybrids. Hopefully this car will do better with the cold

than the Honda.

Edited November 14, 2012 by scott029

[Salva]

Like people said, in "traditional" hybrids cabin heat is done the same way as in conventional car, so in the winter the ICE will run more to keep the coolant warm enough for that.

 

Curiously, the 13 FFH manual states (page 150 or so) this is not the case for the upcoming plugin Energi, which presumably will have some sort of electric cabin heat element. I imagine It will probably run the ICE long and frequently enough to keep the engine block at a reasonable operating temp.

[timf]

To the best of my understanding, it goes like this. Yes, the engine needs to run to heat the car. Just because the gas engine is running doesn't mean that the car is not using the electric motor to move. In fact, excess power being generated by the gas engine beyond what is being used to heat the car or supplement the electric motor is going back into the battery to extend the runtime of the electric motor. So even though you are having to run the gas engine constantly, the fuel used gets balanced out by the increased use of the electric motor to drive the car, and you still get much better gas mileage than you would on a gas engine alone.

[akirby]

To the best of my understanding, it goes like this. Yes, the engine needs to run to heat the car. Just because the gas engine is running doesn't mean that the car is not using the electric motor to move. In fact, excess power being generated by the gas engine beyond what is being used to heat the car or supplement the electric motor is going back into the battery to extend the runtime of the electric motor. So even though you are having to run the gas engine constantly, the fuel used gets balanced out by the increased use of the electric motor to drive the car, and you still get much better gas mileage than you would on a gas engine alone.

 

I think the question was whether it could be pre-heated by starting it in the driveway and letting it run without actually driving it.

[jeff_h]

I think the question was whether it could be pre-heated by starting it in the driveway and letting it run without actually driving it.

 

Yes - once you turn that key you'll notice that there is often a 5-7 second delay in the ICE coming on, but when it's below freezing I've found that the ICE will come on as soon as you turn the key. This is my morning routine when it's cold, to go turn the key and let the ICE start running (and the seat warmers also get turned on), then it takes about 2 minutes to go in and pour coffee and come back out, and then hit the road, and the ICE will have been running during those 2 minutes since the engine/emissions are not yet in the optimal range.

[FusionHybrid2013]

So as I'm deciding which Fusion model to possibly get on my way to work this morning, it dawned on me that it was pretty cold outside this morning. Its only going to get colder in Denver as the winter comes in to season. How does the hybrid system do in colder climates? Does it take longer to warm up because the motor is not constantly running? Also can't preheat the car in any way either right? Any information would be helpful. Thanks!

 

We've had a couple pretty cold days and my mpg has taken a hit. On the days under 30 degrees I had trouble getting anything over about 41 mpg and averaged closer to 40. The gas engine stayed on initially for a good 5 to 10 minutes on those days, which isn't so bad as it gave the battery time to charge up. My battery is always very low when I start the car. After the initial 5-10 minute warm-up, if I am in EV mode for a while on a long down slope or traffic sometimes the engine will kick back on to heat things up. This morning was pretty cold (I think upper 30's when I was driving), but I still managed 46.3mpg.

[lolder]

Yes - once you turn that key you'll notice that there is often a 5-7 second delay in the ICE coming on, but when it's below freezing I've found that the ICE will come on as soon as you turn the key. This is my morning routine when it's cold, to go turn the key and let the ICE start running (and the seat warmers also get turned on), then it takes about 2 minutes to go in and pour coffee and come back out, and then hit the road, and the ICE will have been running during those 2 minutes since the engine/emissions are not yet in the optimal range.

This wastes fuel. The car does not need to be warmed up to drive and anytime the ICE is running and the car is not moving lowers your mileage. Only do that if you can't stand being in a cold car for several minutes.

[scott029]

That's why I ordered the 505A package.... heated seats!!

[scott029]

Yes - once you turn that key you'll notice that there is often a 5-7 second delay in the ICE coming on, but when it's below freezing I've found that the ICE will come on as soon as you turn the key. This is my morning routine when it's cold, to go turn the key and let the ICE start running (and the seat warmers also get turned on), then it takes about 2 minutes to go in and pour coffee and come back out, and then hit the road, and the ICE will have been running during those 2 minutes since the engine/emissions are not yet in the optimal range.

 

It might use alittle more fuel but up here it gets real cold. That 2 minutes makes a big difference when it's below zero!

[akirby]

Only do that if you can't stand being in a cold car for several minutes.

 

I'm pretty sure that was the point. Warming up the driver, not the car.

[lolder]

Hybrids do not require you to rough it so use all the amenities as you please. As we get near to 50 mpg., further economy gains get really tough. Here are some links to what is under development:

1. http://www.visteon.com/products/automotive/heat_pump_system.html

2. http://delphi.com/pdf/techpapers/2012-01-1050.pdf

[scott029]

I'm pretty sure that was the point. Warming up the driver, not the car.

 

I was just making the point that cold to one person is totally different than cold to someone else (like someone who lives in Georgia).

[hermans]

ya....I want my fanny warmers.

[elle]

I don't live in extreme cold, but we get down to around freezing here during the winter, so I do have occasion to use the heat and so forth on my Prius. It basically just works like any other car I've driven. If I want to warm it up to get the ice off my windshield, I just turn it on and turn on the blower and go back inside. If I don't warm it up, it starts to blow warmer air after I've driven about 1/4 or 1/2 mile and then it gets much warmer much faster. I don't think anyone will experience anything different from what they are accustomed to in this regard.

[expresspotato]

The Prius has an electric engine radiator heater though. I believe its two elements at 400W each.

 

CIRCUIT DESCRIPTION

The PTC heater is installed in the radiator in the heater unit on the driver and passenger’s FOOT sides and

operates when cooling water temperature is low and normal heater effectiveness is insufficient.

The air conditioner amplifier assy switches the circuit in the PTC relay and operates the PTC heater when

the operating conditions (cooling water temperature is Below 55C (131F), setting temperature is MAX.

HOT, air outlet damper position is FOOT or FOOT/DEF and blower switch in not OFF) are met.

05IWQ–01

 

http://share.qclt.com/%E4%B8%B0%E7%94%B0%E6%99%AE%E7%91%9E%E6%96%AF%E5%8E%9F%E5%8E%82%E8%8B%B1%E6%96%87%E6%89%8B%E5%86%8Cpdf%E6%A0%BC%E5%BC%8F/Repair%20Manual/04pruisr/55/215xg/parloc40.pdf

Edited November 15, 2012 by expresspotato

[elle]

Interesting. I didn't know that and always assumed that the delay in heat was due to the engine taking time to warm up.

[Iggnutts]

I'm getting the works on my FFH, including the remote start. I'm looking forward to using it at work on cold winter days and having the cabin temp automatically reach a comfortable point by the time I make the long walk out to the lot from my desk. I wonder if it will heat up and then shut off the engine? Probably will stay on the whole time to maintain the temp.

[lolder]

The ICE will cycle on and off after it's warm. There may be a time limit on how long it will run with remote start. Check the manuals. On the first generation FFH's, I don't think the heated seats would come on with remote start.