Ford plans to improve hybrids' mpg with software changes

[billtkat]

^{Well I finally had a chance to take the car out after the upgrade was supposed to happen. Put it on Eco cruise, set it at 70 mph and ran about 4 miles on a pretty flat section and well much not to my surprise the car never went into EV mode. I turned the car back around to head back, set the eco cruise to 60 and guess what I hit EV mode almost right off . Stopped in to the dealer so they can check it out Monday but what a pain in the butt they are. I wish we had another Lincoln dealer here in Evansville. The service dept, much like the sale floor like to talk more than listen}

[entropy]

Karl - what are you talking about ?

are you kidding me or are you serious ....?

<not sure>

:-)

I am VERY MUCH KIDDING!!!!!

(sorry for the confusion, my sense of humor isn't shared universally and gets me in trouble from time-to-time )

 

You are often the "voice of reason", somehow able to clarify issues with very few words, yup.

Kudos to you.

 

Folks who think the MKZ ought to achieve 45/45/45 no matter how it is driven just aren't thinking.

(they remind me of the folks who insist Obama was born in Uganda or some such place; they just aren't thinking)

 

karl

Edited August 25, 2013 by entropy

[phil1336]

I can`t understand why Car Buyers should`nt expect to be able to achieve or even surpass EPA Posted Fuel Economy Standards that are attached to the Vehicles MSRP? My 2011 Ford Fiesta SE Hatchback stated 28 MPG City and 38 MPG Highway. This Vehicle (always) returned 33/35 MPG City and 41/43 MPG Highway from Day (1) until traded in 36 months later with 31K driven. A/C always on as well! The C-MAX has overstated Fuel Economy numbers as well and Ford is preparing to now relabeling those estimated downwards from 47 MPG to 43 MPG and send out $500.50 "Good Will" Checks as compensation. Either include a Special Drivers Manual for Hybrids along with the Regular Owners Manual or simply Post reasonable expected numbers. For their 2014 Edition C-MAX which the Order Guide first indicated No Changes whatsoever, Ford Media say will have improved CVT Gear Ration Changes, Front and Rear Wheel Air Deflectors, (Mud Flaps) A Pillars air deflectors incorporated into moulding trim, Rear Hatch Door Improved Design Air Deflector Spoiler Trim and a better Hood Seal. Combined with having and "egg" attached under both the Brake and Accelerator Pedals should improve mileage by 1 mpg, lol.

[akirby]

or simply Post reasonable expected numbers.

 

Obviously you don't understand how EPA testing and labeling works......

[xgman]

I'm no engineer, but the blue EV mode bracket on the dash cust you off way too soon. Even if my battery reserve shows close to 100%, I can barely stay in EV mode at low speeds, even donw hill or flat. I'm sure the gas mileage would imporve greatly if the callibration was tricked up a buit to allow to stay in EV mode a bit longer at low speeds. I know they are afraid of running out of battery power, but there is plenty of room at least the way I drive.

 

In any case, as I've said before, the difference in the 2011 to the 2013 ratings with me as the same driver at the same style driving, I can say that the 45 number is a bit inflated in comparison to the older model rating. This car should probably be rated at 42 to 43 tops. Just my oipinion.

Edited August 26, 2013 by xgman

[carlton4270]

Xgman,

 

I am an engineer and a researcher.... even after accounting for driver habit variability, I completely agree with you and many others in the forum who complain about the Mkz under-performance in the area of fuel . economy The fact is when you compare the reports of HYBRID drivers (of various brands), Mkz drivers seem to be reporting higher variances (difference between EPA and reality) than several of the other reports I am reading. 2013 VW Jetta hybrid drivers, for example, are reporting 47 mpg as promised by the EPA estimates. I was actually in the market for the Jetta before I fell in love with the MkZ hybrid. I test drove a new Jetta Hybrid with under 80 miles on the car and I achieved the EPA city and highway estimates (43/47) easily.

 

To those of you are interested, I suggest that you head to your local VW dealer and test drive a Jetta Hybrid. Chances are, during the test drive, the salesperson will not be making excuses for the low mpg reported on the dash. Now compare that to what your salesperson told you during your Mkz test-drive.

 

 

After the software update, I have seen an 8-10% improvement in highway mpg. but at 38mpg, it is still way below the 45 mpg promised and way below the mpg delivered by the Jetta . Now, I expect no better than 38 mpg over the lifetime of the car.

 

I have a suspicion that the reason between significant differences in results achieved by some members in this forum may not be so much due to driver habits as some other QUALITY control-related issues. For example, my battery reserve power has never exceeded 50% on my car. It seems that others have reported battery power approaching 100%. Could I have a bad or substandard battery or other related electrical issue adversely affecting EV mode availability and fuel economy? It would not be the first time poor quality control and faulty components significantly affected the performance of a new vehicle.

 

Carlton

 

 

 

Carlton

[jjbklb]

My lifetime MPG has now passed 44mpg.

 

That's with slow acceleration ( if traffic permits),long brake distances,staying within the speed limit,& using eco-cruise control whenever possible.

 

....& I haven't had the software upgrade yet.

Edited August 26, 2013 by jjbklb

[akirby]

Ford's hybrids are more sensitive to driving habits than other vehicles because they rely more on battery power (up to 85 mph now, 62 before). A lot of Fusion and Cmax hybrid owners are new to hybrids which is skewing the results. There could be some mechanical or software problems on some vehicles but mostly it's the driver. It's not good or bad, right or wrong, just different.

 

And for the millionth and 3rd time - the window sticker mpg does not guarantee in any way shape or form that you'll get that mpg. Never has and never will because it's impossible. This is where people are getting bent out of shape because they don't understand the laws or the rules on EPA fuel economy testing and reporting.

[entropy]

i had the module sw reflash (program B1307) done this morning.

 

On the 25mi +/- trip home, my mileage was definitely a bit higher than normal for that stretch of road.

90%+/- is beltway, high volume & generally speeds are variable 60 up as high as pushing 80.

 

No detailed testing, just watching mpg as shown on left display set on trip 1.

 

Normally i'd see mpg 37-39 or so

Today i saw 39-41-ish

Not a dramatic difference, but in the right direction.

 

Also, i put the center display to show the lil car figure and where the electricity is going.

Previously at over 64-ish mph the engine was on all the time

I tested at 75-80mph, let off the gas and the gas engine immediately stopped and i could nurse it along at about 70 on battery power.

Then I tried 80 and the car couldn't maintain it on battery alone.

 

I am convinced that the procedure is worth doing.

[shaggy314]

Not to go off topic, but my 1993 Acura Integra has/had a highway rating of 29 MPG... old rules too. See 'her' current MPG of 31 LIFETIME, last year or so is 33 MPG.

 

I have to argue that driving habits have to be a big part of meeting or exceeding the rated MPG. IIRC they are designed to allow you to compare cars but standardizing as much as possible the conditions so you can compare what an F150 and a Toyota Prius can do MPG wise, not serve as an end all be all of what you should be able to do.

 

Also, my Fusion Energ; running around 92 MPGe for the 3300 miles I have now. Will I light my pitchfork or poke with my torch (humor!), not likely over 10% on the down side of the ratings.

 

All that said, something is up if hypermilers and anal retentives cannot get or exceed the numbers...

[tanner83]

^{Well I finally had a chance to take the car out after the upgrade was supposed to happen. Put it on Eco cruise, set it at 70 mph and ran about 4 miles on a pretty flat section and well much not to my surprise the car never went into EV mode. I turned the car back around to head back, set the eco cruise to 60 and guess what I hit EV mode almost right off . Stopped in to the dealer so they can check it out Monday but what a pain in the butt they are. I wish we had another Lincoln dealer here in Evansville. The service dept, much like the sale floor like to talk more than listen}

 

Yep I am seeing the exact same thing Bill. Literally with the empower screen on the little blue outline that shows battery charging level never ever grows which means the electric engine will not kick on!

[tanner83]

Xgman,

 

I am an engineer and a researcher.... even after accounting for driver habit variability, I completely agree with you and many others in the forum who complain about the Mkz under-performance in the area of fuel . economy The fact is when you compare the reports of HYBRID drivers (of various brands), Mkz drivers seem to be reporting higher variances (difference between EPA and reality) than several of the other reports I am reading. 2013 VW Jetta hybrid drivers, for example, are reporting 47 mpg as promised by the EPA estimates. I was actually in the market for the Jetta before I fell in love with the MkZ hybrid. I test drove a new Jetta Hybrid with under 80 miles on the car and I achieved the EPA city and highway estimates (43/47) easily.

 

To those of you are interested, I suggest that you head to your local VW dealer and test drive a Jetta Hybrid. Chances are, during the test drive, the salesperson will not be making excuses for the low mpg reported on the dash. Now compare that to what your salesperson told you during your Mkz test-drive.

 

 

After the software update, I have seen an 8-10% improvement in highway mpg. but at 38mpg, it is still way below the 45 mpg promised and way below the mpg delivered by the Jetta . Now, I expect no better than 38 mpg over the lifetime of the car.

 

I have a suspicion that the reason between significant differences in results achieved by some members in this forum may not be so much due to driver habits as some other QUALITY control-related issues. For example, my battery reserve power has never exceeded 50% on my car. It seems that others have reported battery power approaching 100%. Could I have a bad or substandard battery or other related electrical issue adversely affecting EV mode availability and fuel economy? It would not be the first time poor quality control and faulty components significantly affected the performance of a new vehicle.

 

Carlton

 

 

 

Carlton

 

Hey Carlton check out my post please. Can you figure why this would be happening?

[EBFlex]

Xgman,

 

I am an engineer and a researcher.... even after accounting for driver habit variability, I completely agree with you and many others in the forum who complain about the Mkz under-performance in the area of fuel . economy The fact is when you compare the reports of HYBRID drivers (of various brands), Mkz drivers seem to be reporting higher variances (difference between EPA and reality) than several of the other reports I am reading. 2013 VW Jetta hybrid drivers, for example, are reporting 47 mpg as promised by the EPA estimates. I was actually in the market for the Jetta before I fell in love with the MkZ hybrid. I test drove a new Jetta Hybrid with under 80 miles on the car and I achieved the EPA city and highway estimates (43/47) easily.

 

To those of you are interested, I suggest that you head to your local VW dealer and test drive a Jetta Hybrid. Chances are, during the test drive, the salesperson will not be making excuses for the low mpg reported on the dash. Now compare that to what your salesperson told you during your Mkz test-drive.

 

 

After the software update, I have seen an 8-10% improvement in highway mpg. but at 38mpg, it is still way below the 45 mpg promised and way below the mpg delivered by the Jetta . Now, I expect no better than 38 mpg over the lifetime of the car.

 

I have a suspicion that the reason between significant differences in results achieved by some members in this forum may not be so much due to driver habits as some other QUALITY control-related issues. For example, my battery reserve power has never exceeded 50% on my car. It seems that others have reported battery power approaching 100%. Could I have a bad or substandard battery or other related electrical issue adversely affecting EV mode availability and fuel economy? It would not be the first time poor quality control and faulty components significantly affected the performance of a new vehicle.

 

Carlton

 

 

 

Carlton

 

Very interesting. 38mpg AFTER an 8-10% improvement isn't good.

[billtkat]

So after getting my appt in the service mgr called to let me know that I was correct and somehow they did not read the full bulletin for the upgrade. Not only did they follow the instructions this time they even tested it out > WOW what a concept . Anyway I was polite as they seemed to have changed their approach, at least when they are wrong and I picked up the car. Heading out to Louisville today and that is about 90 miles with the speed limit at 70 so shall see what happens - We still love the car and the red with tinted windows looks sharp but the dealership and customer service from the start and on going just plain old sucks. I sure with cash from Ford they will be around but this is far far away from being considered luxury experience - In fact due to my Miata having zero trunk space and the MKZ being limited I am now looking at a CUV and the escape is not even in the picture for me. Leaning more towards the CX 5 from Mazda

[billtkat]

Ok so here is the scoop on the upgrade. Seems a little mis-leading to me as I can get the car into EV mode above 62 however it is not at all like when your at or below 62 and can go for some distance in EV mode. In fact most if not all was going downhill and a little (very little) beyond then back to gas mode pretty quick. I drove from Evansville to Louisville on Eco cruise, 70 mph all the way and when stopped for bathroom break before we had go to 55 mph the car averaged 38 mph. Not really any better, in fact worst than my trip to Charleston several weeks back. Not sure what 85 would be but this upgrade is a joke. I do think having the ability to go up to 62 is great but the upgrade is less than stellar for impact.

 

[svtenthusiast]

Lincoln Motor Co has some work to do in the area of diagnostics, listening to customer discussion and feedback, and communicating with dealers.

 

Carlton

 

Amen.

[xgman]

Xgman,

 

I am an engineer and a researcher.... even after accounting for driver habit variability, I completely agree with you and many others in the forum who complain about the Mkz under-performance in the area of fuel . economy The fact is when you compare the reports of HYBRID drivers (of various brands), Mkz drivers seem to be reporting higher variances (difference between EPA and reality) than several of the other reports I am reading. 2013 VW Jetta hybrid drivers, for example, are reporting 47 mpg as promised by the EPA estimates. I was actually in the market for the Jetta before I fell in love with the MkZ hybrid. I test drove a new Jetta Hybrid with under 80 miles on the car and I achieved the EPA city and highway estimates (43/47) easily.

 

To those of you are interested, I suggest that you head to your local VW dealer and test drive a Jetta Hybrid. Chances are, during the test drive, the salesperson will not be making excuses for the low mpg reported on the dash. Now compare that to what your salesperson told you during your Mkz test-drive.

 

 

After the software update, I have seen an 8-10% improvement in highway mpg. but at 38mpg, it is still way below the 45 mpg promised and way below the mpg delivered by the Jetta . Now, I expect no better than 38 mpg over the lifetime of the car.

 

I have a suspicion that the reason between significant differences in results achieved by some members in this forum may not be so much due to driver habits as some other QUALITY control-related issues. For example, my battery reserve power has never exceeded 50% on my car. It seems that others have reported battery power approaching 100%. Could I have a bad or substandard battery or other related electrical issue adversely affecting EV mode availability and fuel economy? It would not be the first time poor quality control and faulty components significantly affected the performance of a new vehicle.

 

Carlton

 

 

 

Carlton

The mileage is highly dependant on driving style. I have been driving Hybrids for several years now and have adapted to a different style of driving. Often these differences in driving styles only need to be subtle to be noticed. Even within my own style, subtle differences can mean the difference between 38 and 44 mpg. One thing I know is that EV mode is way too sensitive to gas pedal movement in the MKZ. Probably be reasons of overkill and fear of running the battery out I suspect. In any case I stand behind the idea that 45 is about 3 mph over what it should really be from my experience with a 2011 mkz and this one.

Edited September 5, 2013 by xgman

[akirby]

In any case I stand behind the idea that 45 is about 3 mph over what it should really be from my experience with a 2011 mkz and this one.

 

Should be? There is no such thing. There is the EPA test and formula (and rules) for calculating the numbers on the window sticker. You either have to change the EPA test or the formula in order to reduce the reported mpg.

 

And please, please, please let's try to remember that the primary reason for EPA testing is CAFE compliance which has huge financial stakes for the auto mfrs. Window sticker reporting is just a side benefit.

[phil1336]

I know its just plain stupid comparing Apples with Oranges just because both Fruit are grown on Trees. My particular disappointment with my Ford C-MAX SE Hybrid is that after driving my 2011 Ford Fiesta for 3 years and 31K, I always got 33-35 mpg city and 41-43 mpg highway compared with 34 mpg city & highway now with my Hybrid. Sure I have only had it 1 month and barely driven 1000 miles to date. The C-MAX is larger, more comfortable, roomy, stylish, and I probably still have much to learn about "Hybrid" driving technics. The Fiesta had a 1.6 ltr. (non-GDI) engine with a Duel Clutch Automatic Transmission while the C-MAX has a CVT Automatic Transmission. A smaller lightweight B-Class Sub Compact Vehicle compared to a larger heavier C Class Compact Hybrid Wagon. So far I`m quite happy about the C--MAX, attractive, powerful, roomy, now if I can achieve eventually 37-39 mpg, I`ll be content. Anything over that approaching the low 40`s would be marvelous! I have ideal driving conditions most of the time too! Year around hot weather in South Florida, no hills and flat roads. Sure its negated by heavy traffic both City and Highway and lots of stopping at Red Lights at intersections but even driving assuming that their is an uncooked (egg) positioned under the accelerator and brake pedal, slow acceleration and easy braking and coasting when possible has not moved the MPG over 34. Perhaps, more break in time is needed and still more Hybrid driving experience will move those numbers upward.

[fordmantpw]

I have ideal driving conditions most of the time too! Year around hot weather in South Florida, no hills and flat roads.

 

That's not exactly ideal. Or do you not use your A/C?

[akirby]

That's not exactly ideal. Or do you not use your A/C?

 

A car without A/C in South Florida is a deathtrap!

[fordmantpw]

A car without A/C in South Florida is a deathtrap!

 

My point exactly!

[xgman]

Should be? There is no such thing. There is the EPA test and formula (and rules) for calculating the numbers on the window sticker. You either have to change the EPA test or the formula in order to reduce the reported mpg.

 

And please, please, please let's try to remember that the primary reason for EPA testing is CAFE compliance which has huge financial stakes for the auto mfrs. Window sticker reporting is just a side benefit.

Well then maybe there is a flaw in the test. I just know what I see. It's misleading info. They probably should have a unique test category for hybrids. They are far more susceptible to driving style than regular gas engines in my experience.

[akirby]

Well then maybe there is a flaw in the test. I just know what I see. It's misleading info. They probably should have a unique test category for hybrids. They are far more susceptible to driving style than regular gas engines in my experience.

 

Ford has already said the EPA should change the testing methods for newer hybrids for that very reason. And the EPA seems to agree. But you do realize that driving style and other factors such as trip length, temperature, etc. can have a huge difference in actual fuel economy, and there is no way a single figure on a window sticker can account for that. The best you could do is show a range that says if you're the worst driver in the worst conditions this is the mpg to expect vs. a hypermiler. The problem with that is you'd end up with a range like 30 mpg - 54 mpg which might help manage customer expectations but it's absolutely worthless for any kind of comparisons.

 

If buyers were more educated as to what the window sticker mpg actually means (or doesn't mean) that would help a lot, but most consumers would just ignore it anyway and still complain.

[EBFlex]

Well then maybe there is a flaw in the test. I just know what I see. It's misleading info. They probably should have a unique test category for hybrids. They are far more susceptible to driving style than regular gas engines in my experience.

 

There does not need to be a special hybrid test. Ford Hybrids (Fusion specifically) did not have any issues meeting their advertised numbers from 2010-2012. Any issues with the test affect both hybrids and non-hybrids. The issues is more the vehicle.

Edited September 6, 2013 by EBFlex