silvrsvt Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 Interesting...and a good way to placate the Drag racers... http://www.autoblog.com/2013/12/17/2015-ford-mustang-to-offer-solid-rear-axle-sort-of/?ncid=edlinkusauto00000016&ts=1387321389 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron W. Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 From the article..... . While this is all good news for Ford enthusiasts that want to run the quarter, nothing has been confirmed by Ford, aside from the off-hand comments of an unnamed employee, so take this with a grain of salt until we hear something certain. But you're correct, interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 I'm very curious how they'll mount this thing. Suspension geometry is the big question mark. Granted, the layout of the new IRS looks to leave a fair bit of space open for a conventional live axle, but the lack of a trailing arm or link in the IRS makes me wonder how you would longitudinally place the SRA. Vertical placement would seem to be less of an issue, as you could possibly do a Panhard Rod or a Watt's Linkage by bolting extensions onto the upper camber link mounts. I'd be very curious to see if there's a stressed portion of the frame ahead of the wheels to which a longitudinal link could be attached (IIRC, you only need links with a live axle). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 (edited) For reference: In theory, what you'd do is pull the IRS components out, use the existing shock mounts, and bolt an extension (assuming there's clearance for it) onto the mounting point of the camber links (the single red links at the top of the suspension assembly). You'd then bolt the Panhard Rod or Watt's Linkage to the back side of the SRA and to the extensions. Although, thinking about it, you might be able to put the offset in the rod/linkage pieces themselves. There doesn't appear to be much room for springs, and I wonder if you wouldn't possibly have to do a coil-over-shock setup, if there's clearance for that. Edited December 18, 2013 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackinaw Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 I was wondering how Ford was going to placate the drag racing community. Assuming this is true, which I doubt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 I have no problem believing it. You have to think that Ford's skunkworks crew had the time & inclination to take on a project like this, even if it was done outside office hours. Big question, IMO, is whether it's suitable for production. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 (edited) Body in white for drag racing probably gets built with 2014 Mustang rear floor panel and suspension pick up points? It's not like it's ever going to be a road car.... Edited December 18, 2013 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 Body in white for drag racing probably gets built with 2014 Mustang rear floor panel and suspension pick up points? It's not like it's ever going to be a road car.... They may offer a replacement for the CobraJet as well (as it seemed to be quite successful), which I'd be incredibly surprised to see come with IRS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkisler Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 (edited) Body in white for drag racing probably gets built with 2014 Mustang rear floor panel and suspension pick up points? It's not like it's ever going to be a road car.... I think this is a good guess. Once you have torn up the underbody to go to IRS, and optimized the fuel tank, rear seat, and luggage capacity, there is no way you're going to jam in a live axle in the same space that was taken up by the IRS. For one thing, you've got the pig flopping around and it would start banging into sheet metal. So, this could be a unique underbody for the boy racers, but it's not a car that's going to be available from the plant. And I'm guessing it could only be done affordably if, as you mention, it used the carryover floor pan from the outgoing model. Edited December 18, 2013 by Austin 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkisler Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 I think this is a good guess. IMO, once you have torn up the underbody to go to IRS, and optimized the fuel tank, rear seat, and luggage capacity, there is no way you're going to jam in a live axle in the same space that was taken up by the IRS. For one thing, you've got the pig flopping around and it would start banging into sheet metal. So, this could be a unique underbody for the boy racers, but it's not a car that's going to be available from the plant. And I'm guessing it could only be done affordably if, as you mention, it used the carryover floor pan from the outgoing model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 So, this could be a unique underbody for the boy racers, but it's not a car that's going to be available from the plant. I think coming from the plant is actually the only really feasible way to offer such a configuration. It might not be cheap, but those who really want/need such a configuration have paid out plenty of good money for unique factory setups in the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 I think this is a good guess. Once you have torn up the underbody to go to IRS, and optimized the fuel tank, rear seat, and luggage capacity, there is no way you're going to jam in a live axle in the same space that was taken up by the IRS. For one thing, you've got the pig flopping around and it would start banging into sheet metal. So, this could be a unique underbody for the boy racers, but it's not a car that's going to be available from the plant. And I'm guessing it could only be done affordably if, as you mention, it used the carryover floor pan from the outgoing model. Thanks Austin, I got the idea from a past discussions and began thinking about the rear floorpan and suspension area as a complete module. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
30 OTT 6 Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 You better be good with a blow torch and welder if you want an SRA on your S550 Mustang. S550 has been confirmed by Ford as an all new RWD platform. It's obvious that Ford has bigger plans for S550 than just Mustang. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 You better be good with a blow torch and welder if you want an SRA on your S550 Mustang. S550 has been confirmed by Ford as an all new RWD platform. It's obvious that Ford has bigger plans for S550 than just Mustang. Eh, we all know automakers have quite a bit of fudge room when they claim something is "all new". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted December 18, 2013 Author Share Posted December 18, 2013 S550 has been confirmed by Ford as an all new RWD platform. It's obvious that Ford has bigger plans for S550 than just Mustang. I wouldn't look into that far...it still has a ton of roots with the outgoing S197 platform. Its about as different as the C1 platform was to the C170 platform (Euro Focus post 2005 vs US Focus) or even the C1 morphing into the Escape/C-max/MKC I seriously doubt we'll be seeing a RWD sedan on this platform....ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
30 OTT 6 Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 I seriously doubt we'll be seeing a RWD sedan on this platform....ever. So you're thinking the RWD Lincoln is going to be a coupe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkisler Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 I think coming from the plant is actually the only really feasible way to offer such a configuration. It might not be cheap, but those who really want/need such a configuration have paid out plenty of good money for unique factory setups in the past. There are a bunch of reasons why I don't see a complete live axle vehicle coming from FRAP, but some of my info could be dated: 1. The most challenging area of the Mustang package is beneath the rear passengers' butts. Very confined and pushed-down rear seating with minimal cushion strike-through, split fuel tank with a crossover, rear suspension, and allowance for sewer pipe exhausts to snake through. Designing the underbody in this area is tough enough, but allowing for two suspensions using the same stampings, fuel tank, and other bits is even worse. And, if you were to do that, you would compromise some of the attributes one gets from an IRS -- fuel capacity and rear seat package to name a couple -- and even though the live axle volume would be low, these compromises would be felt throughout the whole vehicle line. 2. I realize that, at one point, the base Mustang had a live axle and the Cobra had IRS with a common underbody. But the IRS that was jammed into that space, had compromised kinematics according to the experts I talked with at the time. In addition, assembly was an issue. There was a small volume shunt line at Flat Rock; i.e., both combinations couldn't be built on the main chassis line (because we looked at offering IRS in higher volume). So the whole decision cost in the neighborhood of $850-900 per unit just for the unique Cobra IRS. Ouch. 3. The S197 was programmed for IRS from the get-go. It was only a late action by Phil Martens that reversed program direction (and the Chief Program Engineer got shunted for arguing against the decision). That action caused a huge tearup to the rear and probably didn't save any money in the long run. However, the original IRS design for the S197 (a control blade) is not the same as what I'm seeing for the S550. 4. There is going to be almost no free demand for a live axle Mustang. Yes, drag racers complain a lot, but how big a market is it anyway? Enough to have a stand-alone option that one can order? 5. I'm not saying Ford won't try to do something to accommodate as you rightfully mention. The S550 might be "all new" because virtually all of the panels including the underbody are new, but as others have mentioned, it is a direct descendant of the D2c platform. So as JPD mentions, maybe there does exist the potential to build a body in white using carryover S197 rear bits that maybe could even be painted and pulled off line (although messing with the doors off assembly wouldn't be easy). Maybe even partially trimmed? But if so, it's going to be very expensive as you mention. 6. Or maybe I could be completely wrong and very surprised to find out that the engineers actually were able to package both suspensions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 Wouldn't the shunt line have been at Dearborn, not AAI? Also, I'm thinking that a very limited travel SRA *kit* could be sold to drag racers. I agree that a factory build SRA option is a non-starter. I could see Ford's engineers taking the 2015 Mustang and saying, "ok, how do we fit a serviceable SRA in here, for people who are going to be driving about a quarter mile in a straight line on a smooth surface." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkisler Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 Wouldn't the shunt line have been at Dearborn, not AAI? Yes, onset Alzheimers at work I think. The AAI chassis issue came about when we were playing with alternatives for rear suspensions and were evaluating providing base live axle with optional IRS. Which is one of the reasons S197 was programmed for IRS only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkisler Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 Also, I'm thinking that a very limited travel SRA *kit* could be sold to drag racers. I agree that a factory build SRA option is a non-starter. I could see Ford's engineers taking the 2015 Mustang and saying, "ok, how do we fit a serviceable SRA in here, for people who are going to be driving about a quarter mile in a straight line on a smooth surface." Hmm. Maybe. I don't know and I certainly haven't heard anything. Oh, just skip the suspension and bolt the damn thing directly to the body. After all, those springs are just energy absorbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark B. Morrow Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 I have no problem believing it. You have to think that Ford's skunkworks crew had the time & inclination to take on a project like this, even if it was done outside office hours. Big question, IMO, is whether it's suitable for production. With a low take rate, I wouldn't be surprised if it was made a dealer installed option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted December 19, 2013 Share Posted December 19, 2013 Not even dealer installed. I'm thinking Ford Racing Parts catalog item. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted December 19, 2013 Share Posted December 19, 2013 Not even dealer installed. I'm thinking Ford Racing Parts catalog item. exactly, this has to be off road special order: Mustang Daily and Gas2, meanwhile, point out that the debut of a body-in-white car with a nine-inch Ford rear end makes the availability of a bolt-in axle conversion kit from Ford Racing a likely possibility. While this is all good news for Ford enthusiasts that want to run the quarter, nothing has been confirmed by Ford, aside from the off-hand comments of an unnamed employee, so take this with a grain of salt until we hear something certain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-150 Posted December 19, 2013 Share Posted December 19, 2013 None of this matters if the car can't fit a GM smallblock in it. LOL 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted December 19, 2013 Share Posted December 19, 2013 4. There is going to be almost no free demand for a live axle Mustang. Yes, drag racers complain a lot, but how big a market is it anyway? Enough to have a stand-alone option that one can order? Ford sells a direct-from-the-factory Mustang drag race car already, the CobraJet, so obviously that market is big enough for Ford to be addressing now. I wouldn't call it a huge stretch to think they will continue to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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