Ecoboost V8's in medium duty applications?

[Mark B. Morrow]

 

And OHC V8's from Ford have a history of having a VERY robust bottom end.

Speaking of Very Robust Bottom Ends:

Edited May 13, 2014 by Mark B. Morrow

[Deanh]

Speaking of Very Robust Bottom Ends:

and BAM, there go my bearings...

[Mark B. Morrow]

and BAM, there go my bearings...

[theoldwizard]

I do not see Ford (or GM for that matter) designing a new engine exclusively for medium truck service. What may happen is that someone will work with an engine builder (joint venture or some other arrangement) to develop a medium truck gasoline/natural gas engine. This may result in a "private branded" engine or exclusive use agreement for a certain period. For one of the automakers to go it alone I do not see the potential sales justifying the developement cost.

Unless, of course, most of the development and more importantly, tooling, is already paid for !

 

Ford has a shot at a good solution by maximizing the bore and stroke on the BOSS engine and going to a 3V head.

[twintornados]

Speaking of Very Robust Bottom Ends:

[jpd80]

Based on 2+ year old data (and totally illogical IMHO) the future E350/450 will NOT get the 3V engine ! It will get the 6R transmission.

So it sounds like the 6R is beneficial but changing engine production is not... hmm, Ford must be watching costs closely.

[twintornados]

So it sounds like the 6R is beneficial but changing engine production is not... hmm, Ford must be watching costs closely.

Cost to purchase as well as cost to own and maintain....I hope wiz is correct on Ford utilizing BOSS/Hurricane since it is already in production and maximizing its potential for medium truck should not be a monumental task.

[zipnzap]

Speaking of the V8...

 

Does anyone know why Ford isn't offering a V8 in the Transit?

 

Apparently, they can fit.

 

http://www.blueovalforums.com/forums/index.php?/topic/46411-v-8-big-transit-drifting/

[RichardJensen]

Well, that's not exactly production ready, commercial grade, warranteeable usage.

[30 OTT 6]

Unless, of course, most of the development and more importantly, tooling, is already paid for !

 

Ford has a shot at a good solution by maximizing the bore and stroke on the BOSS engine and going to a 3V head.

 

I thought there were other problems with the BOSS engine that made it unsuitable for medium truck service?

[Mark B. Morrow]

Well, that's not exactly production ready, commercial grade, warranteeable usage.

Probably not, but it sure looks like fun!

[jpd80]

 

Speaking of the V8...

 

Does anyone know why Ford isn't offering a V8 in the Transit?

 

Apparently, they can fit.

 

http://www.blueovalforums.com/forums/index.php?/topic/46411-v-8-big-transit-drifting/

Possibly because with a tune, the Ecoboost V6 can do that too....

Edited May 15, 2014 by jpd80

[old_fairmont_wagon]

I have to agree with 30 ott 6 here, I thought the BOSS had significant thermal capacity issues with potential medium duty usage situations. Supposedly, we heard during development that the block can support the necessary bore and stroke to make 7.0+ liters. At that displacement with 3V heads, it should be able to out muscle the 6.8L V-10. However, remember, it's a dual plug motor, so that's 16 plugs for each plug change, which, as amazing as it sounds, is less than the V-10's 10 plugs. Personally, I still believe that they should give the V-10 the same treatment they gave the 5.4L Mod that was used in the last GT500, bore it out to 7.3L (or, go conservative and stop at 7.1L), go DOHC with Variable Intake cam timing (retains the static exhaust cam to use for spinning the balance shaft) and 4V. It would be the finest gasoline motor available on the market for a long time to come, or at least get them through a good 5+ years.

[RichardJensen]

16 plugs for each plug change, which, as amazing as it sounds, is less than the V-10's 10 plugs

 

huh?

[jpd80]

I have to agree with 30 ott 6 here, I thought the BOSS had significant thermal capacity issues with potential medium duty usage situations. Supposedly, we heard during development that the block can support the necessary bore and stroke to make 7.0+ liters. At that displacement with 3V heads, it should be able to out muscle the 6.8L V-10. However, remember, it's a dual plug motor, so that's 16 plugs for each plug change, which, as amazing as it sounds, is less than the V-10's 10 plugs. Personally, I still believe that they should give the V-10 the same treatment they gave the 5.4L Mod that was used in the last GT500, bore it out to 7.3L (or, go conservative and stop at 7.1L), go DOHC with Variable Intake cam timing (retains the static exhaust cam to use for spinning the balance shaft) and 4V. It would be the finest gasoline motor available on the market for a long time to come, or at least get them through a good 5+ years.

And a set of 16 plugs an be had for around $135, not bad considering they will probably last 100,000 miles.

 

At the moment, medium Duty buyers seem to be quite happy with the 6.8 V10, so there's probably little point in changing.

and I bet the longer Ford avoids the cost of a new engine, the more money it makes.

 

On a different note,

We're about to see a the 2.7 V6 Ecoboost in F150 at around 330 hp and 360 lb ft. I bet that power density could be replicated

in something new like a 3.6 V8 Ecoboost for Super Duty at around 440 HP and 480 lb ft, a MD rating of around 350 HP/ 440 lb ft.

Offer it with a strong SGI block and tough internals and I think it would sell in all F Series Trucks...

 

If indeed Ford was considering a change, it would make sense to offer something radically different and more like a pseudo Diesel.

Edited May 16, 2014 by jpd80

[zipnzap]

Well, that's not exactly production ready, commercial grade, warranteeable usage.

 

 

Possibly because with a tune, the Ecoboost V6 can do that too....

 

But isn't a normal V8 more suitable in a work vehicle than the Ecoboost V6... exactly for the reasons stated in this thread?

[jpd80]

But isn't a normal V8 more suitable in a work vehicle than the Ecoboost V6... exactly for the reasons stated in this thread?

Not always.Transit and Medium Duty Trucks are completely different classes and sizes of vehicles

 

I speculated about a possible Ecoboost to span across F150 to Super Duty to Medium Duty, such an engine is theoretically possible

but the commercial reality could be that there's no benefit to change from an existing engine that's meeting expectations.

It's not as though it's an either/or situation with MDs, the V10 is in there already, well amortized and doing the Job.

 

Transit came to the USA with small Euro diesel and I-r Turbo Diesel, so the largest practical gasoline engines were the V6s

Fitting the V8 in that very limited doghouse would have chewed up more time and resources, the V6 Ecoboost is an economical solution.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see a bigger Ecoboost in SDs and MDs but I wonder if the cost benefit is weighing against it.

Edited May 16, 2014 by jpd80

[zipnzap]

Not always.Transit and Medium Duty Trucks are completely different classes and sizes of vehicles

 

I speculated about a possible Ecoboost to span across F150 to Super Duty to Medium Duty, such an engine is theoretically possible

but the commercial reality could be that there's no benefit to change from an existing engine that's meeting expectations.

It's not as though it's an either/or situation with MDs, the V10 is in there already, well amortized and doing the Job.

 

Transit came to the USA with small Euro diesel and I-r Turbo Diesel, so the largest practical gasoline engines were the V6s

Fitting the V8 in that very limited doghouse would have chewed up more time and resources, the V6 Ecoboost is an economical solution.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see a bigger Ecoboost in SDs and MDs but I wonder if the cost benefit is weighing against it.

 

A V8 seemed to fit the Transit in that video just fine. And I actually saw little-to-no doghouse during the shots of the interior.

[RichardJensen]

 

A V8 seemed to fit the Transit in that video just fine. And I actually saw little-to-no doghouse during the shots of the interior.

 

You don't understand: Even if there's little to no modification of the doghouse, there's the question of assembly and cooling: If it took some guy an entire weekend and a stick of butter to wedge that V8 into the Transit, then there's no way Ford can drop fully dressed engines into the Transit as it rolls down the production line.

 

Then there's the question of cooling. Go watch the "Comedians in Cars Getting Coffee" with David Letterman, wherein he and Jerry Seinfeld drive a Volvo station wagon with a super charged 5.0L windsor in it. If the Transit doesn't have a radiator large enough to provide sufficient cooling, or sufficience clearance for exhaust plumbing, etc., then you are going to have major long-term issues, even if it "looks cool" on a Youtube vid.

 

Ultimately, with a more-or-less competently run organization, like Ford, the proof that a V8 is not economically viable is the absence of said V8 from the lineup.

[zipnzap]

 

You don't understand: Even if there's little to no modification of the doghouse, there's the question of assembly and cooling: If it took some guy an entire weekend and a stick of butter to wedge that V8 into the Transit, then there's no way Ford can drop fully dressed engines into the Transit as it rolls down the production line.

 

Then there's the question of cooling. Go watch the "Comedians in Cars Getting Coffee" with David Letterman, wherein he and Jerry Seinfeld drive a Volvo station wagon with a super charged 5.0L windsor in it. If the Transit doesn't have a radiator large enough to provide sufficient cooling, or sufficience clearance for exhaust plumbing, etc., then you are going to have major long-term issues, even if it "looks cool" on a Youtube vid.

 

Ultimately, with a more-or-less competently run organization, like Ford, the proof that a V8 is not economically viable is the absence of said V8 from the lineup.

 

Then unlike the E-Series, this means the Transit is not as suitable a work van, especially in terms of engine life and durability.

[RichardJensen]

 

Then unlike the E-Series, this means the Transit is not as suitable a work van, especially in terms of engine life and durability.

 

It is certainly suitable as a work van in terms of engine life and durability, unless you think that all the EB equipped F150s are being used to haul groceries and sailboat fuel.

 

The Transit, however, is GCWR limited--and not by the powertrain, I might add. The EB in the F150 carries about an 18,000lb GCWR, give or take, which is a couple tons more than the Transit.

 

The EB is a diesel engine that runs at higher RPMs. It has direct injection, just like a diesel, and turbochargers just like a diesel. When you consider that there have been no complaints about the EB engine itself (there have been complaints about the intake and the software, not the long block), it seems unreasonable to insist that this is not an engine capable of working for a living.

[jpd80]

 

A V8 seemed to fit the Transit in that video just fine. And I actually saw little-to-no doghouse during the shots of the interior.

Look at the drift van you sighted, he's using the engine's torque, not the horsepower to do that drifting, so I'm saying that V6 EB Transit could probably do similar..

 

For low down torque production, the Ecoboost V6 works much better than the 5.0 Coyote and fits much more easily to boot but in any regard,

the 3.7 V6 is going to be the main engine, not the Ecoboost V6 or I-5 Diesel - Ford is building to the market now, not what it used to be.

 

And I'm pretty sure Biker has previously covered the changes (with pictures) Ford did to the Doghouse to accommodate American engines.

Edited May 16, 2014 by jpd80

[sullynd]

I'm still waiting for Ford to come out with a V8 Focus. I mean these guys can do it, shirley Ford can, right?

 

While they're at it they should throw in an LS.

Edited May 16, 2014 by sullynd

[twintornados]

I'm still waiting for Ford to come out with a V8 Focus. I mean these guys can do it, shirley Ford can, right?

 

While they're at it they should throw in an LS.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0A5t5_O8hdA

[old_fairmont_wagon]

And a set of 16 plugs an be had for around $135, not bad considering they will probably last 100,000 miles.

 

At the moment, medium Duty buyers seem to be quite happy with the 6.8 V10, so there's probably little point in changing.

and I bet the longer Ford avoids the cost of a new engine, the more money it makes.

 

On a different note,

We're about to see a the 2.7 V6 Ecoboost in F150 at around 330 hp and 360 lb ft. I bet that power density could be replicated

in something new like a 3.6 V8 Ecoboost for Super Duty at around 440 HP and 480 lb ft, a MD rating of around 350 HP/ 440 lb ft.

Offer it with a strong SGI block and tough internals and I think it would sell in all F Series Trucks...

 

If indeed Ford was considering a change, it would make sense to offer something radically different and more like a pseudo Diesel.

 

That's still 6 more plugs than the V-10, which is another, what half hour of labor minimum, multiplied across a fleet. When you're pinching pennies, every little bit counts.

 

And, I happen to agree that, as long as the buyers are happy with the V-10 as-is, I wouldn't touch it as I'm a big believer in not fixing things that aren't broken. I may speculate at possibilities, but, in the end, its the numbers that matter the most.