2016 F-650/750, Doomed From The Start?

[7Mary3]

I have been thinking about Ford's medium duty strategy and talking to some of my peers about the upcoming 2016's, and I have to say the the consensus is not 100% positive. Many seem reluctant to change from the proven Cummins/Allison powertrain that Ford, Freightliner, PACCAR, and now International currently offer, citing dependability, ease of service, and high resale. Some acknowledge that commonality between a Ford medium duty and a pickup could be a plus, but just the same many point out that commonality between a medium duty and a heavy duty can be of more value, depending on the makeup of the fleet in question. Some (and I will include myself in this group) wonder if we will see a return to the days of very limited options and spec's which relegated Fords to simple vans and flatbeds for the most part. In the case of the fleet I currently work for, the priliminary information has already ruled the 2016 Ford mediums out of consideration.

 

There is a strong likelyhood that Ford will be the lowest cost medium duty on the market, particularly with the gasoline engine option. That by itself should buy Ford considerable municipal and rental fleet sales. Question is will it be enough?

 

While there might be a question about the success of the new 650 and 750, I don't think there will be any question about the popularity of the new Transit. Could a situation arise where Ford needs more plant capacity for profitable Transits and decides to sacrifice less profitable medium duty trucks? Avon Lake gets the Transit after all?

 

Yes, playing devil's advocate and throwing a lot of speculation around.........

[RichardJensen]

I doubt that Ford will need two plants to assemble Transits. You can do upwards of 20,000 vehicles per month from a single plant.

 

Also, I expect that Ford has the market for these trucks pretty well circumscribed. I think they know exactly who they're going to target this truck toward.

I think they want to 'own' a segment that they can expand outward from, rather than be competing on all fronts against the other entries.

[Bob Rosadini]

7M- I share your concern, but after my initial negativity toward the PowerStroke/Torqueshift combo, I came to the realization that there is a lot of volume that such a combination will appeal to. No doubt, I can't see many utilities like you going for this combo in particular in the class 7 range, but for sure, the ramp truck/tow market, rental business, local delivery market should be prime targets-in particular with the extended warranty and broad dealer coverage assuming that all dealers authorized to sell 350-550 will now be able to sell/service 6750/750.

 

And as with a lot of new products, once the trucks hit the market, perhaps we will see the 6 cylinder Duratorque diesels start to work into the picture to increase market share.

[Edstock]

And as with a lot of new products, once the trucks hit the market, perhaps we will see the 6 cylinder Duratorque diesels start to work into the picture to increase market share.

 

Too bad the tooling's all gone, but a V-6 version of the WW2 60° Ford alloy 4-valve DOHC V-8 Tank engine gives 825 cubes. With direct injection and an EcoBoost set-up, you'd have big diesel torque.

[lfeg]

With the new F650 / 750 Ford seems to be going for the low end of the class 6 and 7 market. Small fleets and single truck users. Those on a budget or that want to keep costs at a minimum. Those that do not do their own PM and repairs in an in-house facility. It is about finding a sweet spot where the big guys in class 6 and 7 are not entrenched. I give it a good chance of working. While not a huge market, it looks to be enough to be profitible in given how Ford looks to be getting into it.

 

As to municipal fleets, I do not see much Ford penetration there, especially in the snow zones. In my area there is a huge jump from class 3 and 4 dumps to class 6 and 7 dumps - the class 6 and 7 are pretty heavy spec with 9 liter power minimum. They have much in common with the heavies. They have found that skimping on specs can be costly, especially during snow season (frames and axles the big failure areas).

Same for the fleets with say 6 or more trucks that do their own maintenance - the Cummins/Spicer and Cummins/Allison combinations rule the roost. But there is something to say in favor of the integrated drivetrain approach - a construction company near me has been switching their fleet of class 6 and 7s to Mack for one reason. One stop shopping for chassis, engine, trans, and axle parts. The dealer they use also handles the bodies they put on the chassis, so it really is one stop shopping. They have a fleet of 20+ SA, tandem, and quad dumps and really work them hard during the construction season. But they are solid Ford in class 3 and 4, mostly stakes, utility and service bodies (15 to 20 of them).

[jpd80]

And having Ford power trains in F650/F750 means that so many more dealerships around the country

can assist with servicing and parts. Also being American made combined with a lower price are big pluses.

[7Mary3]

And having Ford power trains in F650/F750 means that so many more dealerships around the country

can assist with servicing and parts. Also being American made combined with a lower price are big pluses.

 

Well, the 6.7L is Mexican made anyway.

 

I saw a towing equipment distributor advertise that this would be the last year to buy a Ford F-650 with a Cummins/Allison powertrain, so put your orders in soon........

[Bob Rosadini]

 

Too bad the tooling's all gone, but a V-6 version of the WW2 60° Ford alloy 4-valve DOHC V-8 Tank engine gives 825 cubes. With direct injection and an EcoBoost set-up, you'd have big diesel torque.

yuk-yuk- The GAA right? What did it weigh? I have never seen one and was not aware they were DOHC

[Bob Rosadini]

 

Well, the 6.7L is Mexican made anyway.

 

I saw a towing equipment distributor advertise that this would be the last year to buy a Ford F-650 with a Cummins/Allison powertrain, so put your orders in soon........

Well as to foreign component content we better get used to it. We have a laser guided equipment show at our fairgrounds Fri/Sat so I was checking out some things today. Equipment is by Topcon and two of the bigger New England Deere dealers (yellow stuff) are providing the machines that get the laser controls. They brought in a big Deere grader (772) Front drive axle-made in Spain, hydraulic driven gear box that spins the turntable, also Spain. Many wiring harnesses- Mexico!

 

Not sure if I posted this here or on BigMack site but took a tour through Mack plant in Macungie PA a month ago- You see all the components in the respective bays as trucks move through assembly- parts from Malaysia, Mexico etc. etc. We are truly in a world economy-although I have to admit the Malaysia bit surprised me- I think they were interior cab components-yeah labor is cheap- but airfreight costs???

[7Mary3]

7M- I share your concern, but after my initial negativity toward the PowerStroke/Torqueshift combo, I came to the realization that there is a lot of volume that such a combination will appeal to. No doubt, I can't see many utilities like you going for this combo in particular in the class 7 range, but for sure, the ramp truck/tow market, rental business, local delivery market should be prime targets-in particular with the extended warranty and broad dealer coverage assuming that all dealers authorized to sell 350-550 will now be able to sell/service 6750/750.

 

And as with a lot of new products, once the trucks hit the market, perhaps we will see the 6 cylinder Duratorque diesels start to work into the picture to increase market share.

I think about the only way the Duratorq will make it to the U.S. is if Ford can convince another OEM to offer it. The cost of U.S. E.P.A and C.A.R.B. certification is high and needs to be spread out over a lot of units.

[Edstock]

yuk-yuk- The GAA right? What did it weigh? I have never seen one and was not aware they were DOHC

 

The V-6 would be lighter. Balanced, too.

 

http://www.fordgaaengine.com/

As set up with modern day components and without all the combat related items, a typical GAA weighs around 900-950 lbs ready to run. A complete modern day lower engine with starter and lightened flywheel weighs around 675 lbs. The bare block itself weighs 220 lbs.

• • •

Note the 60-degree "V", which results in the engine only being 33.25" wide, including exhaust

manifolds. Engine is 36" high, from the bottom of the pan to the top of the valve covers.

[jpd80]

 

 

TURKEY: Ford four-year spend of $1.6bn way ahead of Plan

By Graeme Roberts | 14 February 201...LINK

Ford Otosan’s plant in Inonu, Eskisehir is undertaking heavy truck manufacturing and engine development for global markets.

$100m will be spent in the plant for the development and production of 11- and 13-litre Ecotorq engines, used in Cargo line

trucks as well as in various industrial and marine applications. Both the truck and the engine are designed and built by Turkish engineers.

Now we're talking about big assed engines, I bet they weigh 1500 lb or more.

Edited July 18, 2014 by jpd80

[theoldwizard]

There is a strong likelyhood that Ford will be the lowest cost medium duty on the market, particularly with the gasoline engine option. That by itself should buy Ford considerable municipal and rental fleet sales. Question is will it be enough?

It had better be. I highly doubt that Ford will invest more into that product line.

 

Prime example is the 6.8L V10. Ancient design by today's standards. Underpowered for the application. If they are really serious about a gasser in that product range, they need something in the 8.0-9.0L range. Don't waste your breath on EcoBoosting it. Fleets want simple and reliable.

 

 

In the case of the fleet I currently work for, the priliminary information has already ruled the 2016 Ford mediums out of consideration.

Curious. What feature is missing ? Edited July 18, 2014 by theoldwizard

[theoldwizard]

And having Ford power trains in F650/F750 means that so many more dealerships around the country

can assist with servicing and parts.

Can, but will they want to ?

 

A typical "box" truck or single axle tractor probably won't fir inside their garage or on their lifts !

[7Mary3]

As far as my fleet is concerned, the 2016 F-750 is out because most of our units have dual P.T.O.'s, and there may be some question as to how much power a Torq-Shift can handle through a P.T.O.. We also don't know it our throttle controls will interface with a 6.7L Powerstroke.

 

I have a pretty good Ford commercial dealer no too far away, but my closest dealer Ford dealer won't touch anything larger than an F-550, and even then there are many things he can't do to an F-550 if it has a large body on it. While I don't see a dealer shortage for the 650 and 750, a lot of Ford dealers are not going to have anything to do with them.

[jpd80]

Can, but will they want to ?

 

A typical "box" truck or single axle tractor probably won't fir inside their garage or on their lifts !

I'll admit that we're a long way from seeing Medium duties anywhere near Ford dealer servicing

but if they are serious it has to start somewhere and perhaps the first step is building up sales.

 

We know from some of the informed posts in this thread that people buying Ford's MDs are

going to be a slightly different demographic to the regular class 6,7, 8 buyers so perhaps

there's an opportunity for Ford to grow a niche in that market and start addressing those

buyers' needs. That of course would require follow through by Ford and its dealers

and do they want to do that ahead of building up say F150 and SD sales/service.

 

How much does Ford really want this and would dealers see any benefit / ROI?

Edited July 18, 2014 by jpd80

[lfeg]

Most Ford dealers have a hard enough time properly specing out an F350 cab and chassis, so asking them to handle F650/750 is well beyong existing capabilities. Around here there are Ford truck dealers, so it is not an issue. About the only F450/550s you see on the lots of most Ford car and pickup dealers around here are "landscaper specials" - basic spec cab and chassis that have a low budget dump body installed.

 

The first time buyers and small fleet buyers of the F650/750s will be better served by someone who knows mediums and has experience with the applications for them, and that is a Ford truck dealership that handles and knows mediums. Someone getting a truck not properly speced for their application (and there are more than a few who really do not know what they really need) will not have a good ownership experience. In my opinion Ford will be best served if dealers who are primarily car and pickup dealers stay away from the F650/750.

[Bob Rosadini]

Most Ford dealers have a hard enough time properly specing out an F350 cab and chassis, so asking them to handle F650/750 is well beyong existing capabilities. Around here there are Ford truck dealers, so it is not an issue. About the only F450/550s you see on the lots of most Ford car and pickup dealers around here are "landscaper specials" - basic spec cab and chassis that have a low budget dump body installed.

 

The first time buyers and small fleet buyers of the F650/750s will be better served by someone who knows mediums and has experience with the applications for them, and that is a Ford truck dealership that handles and knows mediums. Someone getting a truck not properly speced for their application (and there are more than a few who really do not know what they really need) will not have a good ownership experience. In my opinion Ford will be best served if dealers who are primarily car and pickup dealers stay away from the F650/750.

Unfortunately I have to agree with you about a lot of dealers and their sales force mentality. Case in point, I was kicking tires in a dealership last fall -they had a GT-500 on the floor- and I asked the guy who came up to me about the future opf 650-750-he put me on to the "truck specialist". This guy was clueless-did not know what Bluediamond was. Big cheese comes over-equally clueless.

 

However, at least here in this part of New England we have a lot of big dealers who sell and inventory a lot of 350-550's-and they advertise in the typical free heavy equipment rags. In Mass we also have two dealers that move a lot of 650's/750's. One was a former Heavy Truck Store who stayed with Sterling and then took on Navistar. the other is a car dealer who for years sold a lot of heavy trucks through an arrangement he had with another New England Heavy Truck store-long gone. This guy typically has an inventory of 650's/750's and is looking forward to the new trucks.

 

The smart dealers I think will see the potential and gear up. Also it is speculation at this point that ALL dealers will automatically get 6560/750 right? Or has that point been verified?

[Bob Rosadini]

 

The V-6 would be lighter. Balanced, too.

 

http://www.fordgaaengine.com/

As set up with modern day components and without all the combat related items, a typical GAA weighs around 900-950 lbs ready to run. A complete modern day lower engine with starter and lightened flywheel weighs around 675 lbs. The bare block itself weighs 220 lbs.

• • •

Note the 60-degree "V", which results in the engine only being 33.25" wide, including exhaust

manifolds. Engine is 36" high, from the bottom of the pan to the top of the valve covers.

Edstock, Thx- great info-always wondered about the GAA and figured it was a huge low tech cast iron boat anchor! When you did your first post I thought you were joking!

[Edstock]

Edstock, Thx- great info-always wondered about the GAA and figured it was a huge low tech cast iron boat anchor! When you did your first post I thought you were joking!

 

Well, with new cylinder heads with direct-alcohol injection and port gasoline injection, and EcoBoost, an 825 cid V-6 with 1,100 ft-lb of torque might have some surprises, with the right transmission. It'll never happen, of course, but compared to the operational and acquisition costs of Class 8 diesels, it might not be so absurd . . .

[lfeg]

I remember when back in the late 60s to mid 70s a bunch of the GAAs showed up at military surplus truck yards. Some were picked up by hot rodders who abandoned them when they saw how heavy they were.