rmc523 Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 (edited) I'm sorry, but which brand produced and/or neglected these vehicles within their showroom, exactly? It's essentially the opposite of "ridiculous" to hold a brand responsible for a huge chunk of their offerings. It's called accountability, and also a fairly stark understanding of why Ford's recently departed CEO was thinking of dropping the axe on the brand...pretty recently. To hold a brand accountable for product offerings is one thing, but to imply that the current crop of outdated vehicles is indicative of the coming effort, the first vehicle of which has been praised for it's differentiation is what I was referring to as ridiculous. Edited July 21, 2014 by rmc523 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZanatWork Posted July 21, 2014 Author Share Posted July 21, 2014 (edited) Your posts speak for themselves. The fact that you seem to continually have to explain what you meant should tell you something. Actually, the common thread is that you're the one that has the most trouble understanding. You're the consistent question mark. Just because you have a multi-year snit with my posts doesn't make you right, after all...! I'll try using smaller words, maybe you'll be able to keep up. Edited July 21, 2014 by ZanatWork Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 (edited) Or Lincoln could be like Cadillac with 130-140 day inventory levels on cars that should be selling a whole lot better.. Yep, Lincoln should wheel in all those BMW copies and start really raking in the cash from conquest sales... Because everyone knows that RWD and performance sell themselves and can never do wrong... Edited July 21, 2014 by jpd80 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZanatWork Posted July 21, 2014 Author Share Posted July 21, 2014 Or Lincoln could be like Cadillac with 130-140 day inventory levels on cars that should be selling a whole lot better.. Yep, Lincoln should wheel in all those BMW copies and start really raking in the cash from conquest sales... Because everyone knows that RWD and performance sell themselves and can never do wrong... ...and we have the predictable straw man! I'm not limited to "go after BMW", and I'm definitely not stuck in any kind of "emulate Caddy" mindset. I'm pretty hideous to Caddy here, actually. In previous threads, also apparently ignored, I've openly acknowledged that much of their product base will be fwd based, and the trends favor the CUVs that are already largely covered with the MKC, MIKX, and a hopefully-better-the-next-time MKT. Again, for those that literally need things repeated often and over years...I figure that, if it can be configured as such, the S550 spawning a "4 door coupe" would be a "dynamic" offering that has most of its R&D budget already handled. I also would prefer a RWD/AWD flagship, but if Lincoln were to pull of an AWD sedan with a worthy driving experience, that would be fantastic. It just must be done much better than the MKS has been. Also apparently needing constant clarification: when you've heard, for decades at this point, the desire to take Lincoln upmarket, to make it a real luxury marque, etc etc etc...just going by a perceived "direction" that's not fully realized yet would be irrational. Hardly being unreasonable, here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrewfanGRB Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 (edited) I'm sorry, but which brand produced and/or neglected these vehicles within their showroom, exactly? It's essentially the opposite of "ridiculous" to hold a brand responsible for a huge chunk of their offerings. It's called accountability, and also a fairly stark understanding of why Ford's recently departed CEO was thinking of dropping the axe on the brand...pretty recently. What is about RMC's post is so difficult to understand? You're using the existence of vehicles that ALL of us agree are substandard as evidence of where Lincoln is GOING, which is EXACTLY the debate...not where it IS today. Does the MKS need a wholesale redesign? Yes! Does the MkT need to be chopped if not completely re-done in a fundamentally different way? Yes! Does the Navigator need to be improved to properly compete with the Escalade? Yes! NO ONE is arguing any different. It's only in your "You're not as preposterously mad about this for some reason like I am therefore you're all fanbois who ignore the TRUTH" mindset that makes you think we don't care. The fact of the matter is you come across like a fact-denying, logic-avoiding, hypocritical tea partier. And if you are one of those people, that would actually explain EVERYTHING about your posts. Also: Why do you refuse to answer akirby's questions? WHY does Lincoln NEED a halo car? You simply do not understand the economics of this. You repeatedly reference Audi, Lexus, etc...as makes that should be emulated. Yet, you fail to recognize or acknowledge that the RX is NOT the best selling small luxury CUV or the ES one of the best selling entry luxury sedans BECAUSE they have the LFA. It's not like Lexus built an LFA and then 40 year old, upper middle class mom said "Well, shit, I have can the soccer mom version of THAT!" They build the LFA because the RX and ES make Lexus gobsmacking amounts of profit that allow them to do projects like the F series. I simply do not get what the problem is with accepting Ford making profits off what Lincoln is offering. Your opinion is irrelevant: It's irrelevant to the market itself and it's irrelevant to what Ford needs to do to accomplish it's only reason for existence: Make a profit. You've not offered a SINGLE piece of evidence to prove Ford: 1) is dragging its feet purposely on redesigning it's Lincoln portfolio 2) that offering what YOU think they should would significantly generate greater profit than their plan or 3) that there's even a market for what you suggest they do. Edited July 21, 2014 by BrewfanGRB 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrewfanGRB Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 I also would prefer a RWD/AWD flagship, but if Lincoln were to pull of an AWD sedan with a worthy driving experience, that would be fantastic. It just must be done much better than the MKS has been. And there it is! Your PREFERENCES are just that...and are perfectly fine to have. But they have absolutely nothing at all do with making Lincoln a profitable luxury competitor. Again, you conveniently choose to ignore that BMW/MB/Audi have been doing this for decades and have never really had to bring their entire operations back from the brink of death. Lexus has crazy popular and profitable boring, mass-market vehicles that it's made into perfectly acceptable offerings long ago. Lincoln needs to build the foundation of its operation to fund the build-out of the rest. You can happily have a preference for an S550 competitor but your assertions that Lincoln's failure to offer one means they suck, aren't improving and will never be better is either you being obtuse, a troll or simply not a very smart person. What is wrong about improving and offering great vehicles in the entry lux sedan, small lux CUV and lux midsize CUV to generate sales and profits and THEN creating a great S550 competitor? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 (edited) ...and we have the predictable straw man! I'm not limited to "go after BMW", and I'm definitely not stuck in any kind of "emulate Caddy" mindset. I'm pretty hideous to Caddy here, actually. In previous threads, also apparently ignored, I've openly acknowledged that much of their product base will be fwd based, and the trends favor the CUVs that are already largely covered with the MKC, MIKX, and a hopefully-better-the-next-time MKT. Again, for those that literally need things repeated often and over years...I figure that, if it can be configured as such, the S550 spawning a "4 door coupe" would be a "dynamic" offering that has most of its R&D budget already handled. I also would prefer a RWD/AWD flagship, but if Lincoln were to pull of an AWD sedan with a worthy driving experience, that would be fantastic. It just must be done much better than the MKS has been. So in one breath, you say that Lincoln should not emulate Cadillac by developing a suite of RWD vehicles but then have an open opinion of a 4-door LincStang even though such a car would require more than a simple derivative extension costs - like Richard has indicated in the past, I'm betting that developing a 4-door coupe off a Mustang is far more complex than many would imagine, sure there are shared costs but taking Zeta as an example, those derivatives save about 8% of design costs by being shared platforms, the level of differentiation is so high that carry over parts are limited to similar design only, not straigth swap over. If there was a snowball's chance in hell that a Mustang based 4-Door coupe would change the perception of Lincoln that much, I could almost guarantee that Ford would have been building them yesterday. Also apparently needing constant clarification: when you've heard, for decades at this point, the desire to take Lincoln upmarket, to make it a real luxury marque, etc etc etc...just going by a perceived "direction" that's not fully realized yet would be irrational. Hardly being unreasonable, here. Only if you think that all of that can be done by product alone. Lincoln is changing but the biggest change goes unnoticed by people who never visit a Lincoln dealership. Sure most of the products are roll overs of the same vehicles that are considered sub par but when presented in newer Lincoln dealership atmosphere and coupled with optioned up higher trim levels, the vehicles suddenly become very appealing to those willing to check out the offerings. Edited July 21, 2014 by jpd80 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extreme4x4 Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 I'm trying to figure out why we are arguing about Lincoln................ again............... in an Expedition thread. Things that make you go hmmmmm...................... Its funny, I haven't been around as much due to computer issues, and the same arguements are happening......................... particularly by one person. Cut and paste would be easier. So, how about that Expedition!!! Looking better than anyone gave it credit for. It will be fun to see the fully redesigned version in a couple of years. Still, it is nice to see the old gal getting some attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Gloria, I'm still left wondering if these early positive reports will give way to criticism in later full comparisons with the competition like Tahoe and Suburban, maybe even GMC. While the refresh will allow Expedition to keep selling in reasonable numbers and at good prices, I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop with critisism when the older Expedition is compared to its much newer rivals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 I'm trying to figure out why we are arguing about Lincoln................ again............... in an Expedition thread. Just look at who started it and why........... it's not rocket surgery! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Gloria, I'm still left wondering if these early positive reports will give way to criticism in later full comparisons with the competition like Tahoe and Suburban, maybe even GMC. While the refresh will allow Expedition to keep selling in reasonable numbers and at good prices, I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop with critisism when the older Expedition is compared to its much newer rivals. I do think the enthusiasm will wane a bit in direct comparisons. And since this is only a stop gap refresh it really doesn't matter much either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZanatWork Posted July 21, 2014 Author Share Posted July 21, 2014 Just look at who started it and why........... it's not rocket surgery! ...kinda like, "look who has to jump on my posts year after year". Very consistent element, that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 I do think the enthusiasm will wane a bit in direct comparisons. And since this is only a stop gap refresh it really doesn't matter much either way. It also allows Ford to stay in touch with the segment and provide its loyal buyers with an improved product. Sales volume may not change but I have a hunch that approval will be in the form of increased transaction prices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 GM fans will keep buying GM, but more of 'em will cross over to the Blue side. IMHO, between the Expedition and the Navigator, the improvements are such that the Asians and the Germans might find people starting to do the same, too. I know, it's all personal taste, but the latest Asian full-size SUV/CUV whatever sleds are really grotesque; the Expedition may look old to some, but at least it doesn't look like a mutant. Time will tell, but it appears to be the right mix, and it will make the next one that much easier to sell, IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 I see more import conquests than GM conquests - those are pretty loyal buyers. But since this is just a stop gap until the real one gets here that should be enough. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 So, how about that Expedition!!! Looking better than anyone gave it credit for. It will be fun to see the fully redesigned version in a couple of years. Still, it is nice to see the old gal getting some attention. Gloria, I'm still left wondering if these early positive reports will give way to criticism in later full comparisons with the competition like Tahoe and Suburban, maybe even GMC. While the refresh will allow Expedition to keep selling in reasonable numbers and at good prices, I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop with critisism when the older Expedition is compared to its much newer rivals. I have to agree - I've been somewhat surprised how positive the reviews have been thus far, given not much (as a whole) was changed - usually they heavily criticize for that. I think they're good stop-gap measures until the new ones arrive though. As you said, it'll keep current customers happy for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZanatWork Posted July 21, 2014 Author Share Posted July 21, 2014 A common thread since the 2003 Expedition and its independent rear suspension has been the evolution of how well it's utilized. The 2007 update was lauded for how much more "dialed in" the chassis was, and it appears the next major step forward happened with the latest update.As much as MFT will continue to get growls and mistrust due to previous distaste for it (BMW's i-drive had a very mixed initial response as well), it appears the return of more manual controls along with the other interior improvements had the desired effect. Another possible contributor to all the positive write-ups: the outgoing Expy was a better SUV than the competing GM products. It appears that this continues to be the case (which is hardly surprising). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 ...kinda like, "look who has to jump on my posts year after year". Very consistent element, that. Says the person who sarcastically broadsided half the board with his original post. This thread is closed. Start another one like it and you'll be taking a vacation. Send me a PM complaining about how poorly you're being treated, or report this post to moderators, and you're likely to pick up a vacation as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts