CT6 engines reveal

[7Mary3]

 

I think it's engineering ego mainly, with far too optimistic volume estimates because they don't really understand what Cadillac buyers want or are willing to pay. And with absolutely no thought to short term cost or ROI.

 

I think building coupes and V models and ELRs and even more expensive sedans instead of utilities and focusing on the dealership experience first is ample evidence.

 

All I can say is the dealership experience at my local Cadillac dealer is now worlds better than the dealership experience at my local Ford/Lincoln dealership. All Lincoln rates is an empty desk on the showroom floor (down at the end behind the new F-150), a couple of placards and maybe one MK-Something (and probably a 2014 at that).

[fuzzymoomoo]

 

All I can say is the dealership experience at my local Cadillac dealer is now worlds better than the dealership experience at my local Ford/Lincoln dealership. All Lincoln rates is an empty desk on the showroom floor (down at the end behind the new F-150), a couple of placards and maybe one MK-Something (and probably a 2014 at that).

Is it a standalone Caddilac dealer? Because I've heard stories of combined Caddilac/Buick/GMC or Chevrolet/Caddilac dealers having the same problem as the combined Ford/Lincoln experience you described.

[7Mary3]

Is it a standalone Caddilac dealer? Because I've heard stories of combined Caddilac/Buick/GMC or Chevrolet/Caddilac dealers having the same problem as the combined Ford/Lincoln experience you described.

 

Cadillac/GMC, nothing else.

[jpd80]

+1

 

And, not to mention that those claims of ATPs have to be somewhat rectified when you look at the cash incentives that had to be piled on the hoods of those cars to clear them out. Up to $17,700 in incentives for the damn ELR?(!)

 

(Note: The Escalade is not included in my above statement as that thing is the real deal when it comes to raking in the dough)

How is it that Cadillac can get two Utes - Escalade so right and SRX knocking out solid sales

yet go completely off track with its car strategy - signs of a bipolar attitude towards buyers.

[Fgts]

How is it that Cadillac can get two Utes - Escalade so right and SRX knocking out solid sales

yet go completely off track with its car strategy - signs of a bipolar attitude towards buyers.

You rather them be just comatose like Lincoln?. Overall everyones CUVs are outselling their car lineup, even in the mainstream the CRV and Equinox outsold their cars. Is Lexus bipolar also due to the truck lineup outselling the cars?

[papilgee4evaeva]

This has been a commercial disaster, Cadillac is clinging to higher transaction prices

but neatly ignores the collapse in actual sales or the expected sales in any case...

THAT is what I'm after.

[aneekr]

I will maintain, like many others here, that it's definitely not the car's fault that sales have sucked. ATS as well.

+1

As I mentioned in another thread, if Cadillac is unable to make significant inroads into the premium car segment with excellent products like ATS and CTS (I'm going to assume CT6 is similarly top notch), there's pretty much no hope for bit players like Acura, Infiniti, and Lincoln to ever compete.

[RichardJensen]

Overall everyones CUVs are outselling their car lineup

 

Then why is Cadillac spending so much money on their cars?

[RichardJensen]

compete.

 

What is this? A race?

 

What happened to the winner of the 2008 manufacturer sales crown in the United States?

[papilgee4evaeva]

+1

As I mentioned in another thread, if Cadillac is unable to make significant inroads into the premium car segment with excellent products like ATS and CTS (I'm going to assume CT6 is similarly top notch), there's pretty much no hope for bit players like Acura, Infiniti, and Lincoln to ever compete.

 

Well, you and I see the same problem -- that Cadillac is unable to successfully move the new ATS and CTS even though they are class-competitive. But that's where we diverge.

 

Cadillac's reason for being unable to compete has nothing to do with the product. It's that they're trying to establish themselves against the status quo on price... prematurely. The last CTS was pretty much a 5-Series competitor in its own right, though it undercut the 5 in price significantly. IMO Cadillac could have increased the base price incrementally without causing sticker shock. A base price of $40-42K might have been enough to get buyers in the door and establish credibility. And then the ATS, which has no past reputation, being priced the same as the 3 was a horrible move.

 

You get your foot in the door in the segment by presenting your product as a better value, and then by the third generation in that segment (I know this is the 3rd gen CTS, but the first gen was a 3 competitor) you legitimately contend.

 

It is possible to compete in those markets. It will not happen overnight, no matter how much de Nysschen wants it to.

[aneekr]

 

What is this? A race?

 

That's actually how this WSJ article describes the intense competition among the three main players, Mercedes-Benz, BMW, and Audi. The article notes that these marques are willing to put forth significant expenditures - even with an adverse impact to profitability - in order to win. As for the other major contenders, Toyota's Lexus admits the Big 3 players are "invincible", and the struggles of Cadillac and Jaguar have been discussed in this thread and others on Blue Oval Forums.

 

With their relative lack of true premium products, Acura, Infiniti, and Lincoln are barely past the starting line in this race and the Big 3 are kicking them while they are down. It's not a matter of if the bit players will drop out, but when.

[akirby]

If you're making money you're winning.

[aneekr]

 

You get your foot in the door in the segment by presenting your product as a better value.

 

But Cadillac has done exactly that with third generation CTS. It delivers driving dynamics that are notably superior to BMW F10 5-Series, similar or better levels of amenities, fit and finish, etc., and a lower price (e.g., 2015 CTS Luxury 2.0T has a sticker price over $2,600 below a comparably equipped 2015 528i Luxury Line, and a 2015 CTS VSport is over $8,600 less than a comparable 2015 550i M-Sport).

 

This is why I find Cadillac's struggles so worrisome. It's not due to a lack of effort.

[RichardJensen]

 

The article notes that these marques are willing to put forth significant expenditures - even with an adverse impact to profitability - in order to win.

 

Does this sound like good business?

 

Also, do you realize that with its titanic revenue stream from entry-level cars, Ford can fund a significant portion of every Lincoln product, thus dramatically reducing the volume needed to break-even, thus resulting in a P&L calculus significantly different than that of BMW and MB?

 

You are talking as though the only way for Ford to profit from Lincoln is to achieve BMW/Mercedes level sales figures, apparently ignoring the significantly lower B/E point of Lincoln product.

[RichardJensen]

 

2015 CTS Luxury 2.0T has a sticker price over $2,600 below a comparably equipped 2015 528i Luxury Line

 

That's not enough of a discount when you're talking turbo 4 in a Cadillac vs. an inline 6 in a Bimmer.

 

The struggles of Cadillac have more to do with GM's entirely unrealistic view of the market and less to do with the "impossibility" of selling luxury cars.

[papilgee4evaeva]

That's not enough of a discount when you're talking turbo 4 in a Cadillac vs. an inline 6 in a Bimmer.

 

Psst... Rich... the BMW has a turbo-4 now too....

[jpd80]

 

But Cadillac has done exactly that with third generation CTS. It delivers driving dynamics that are notably superior to BMW F10 5-Series, similar or better levels of amenities, fit and finish, etc., and a lower price (e.g., 2015 CTS Luxury 2.0T has a sticker price over $2,600 below a comparably equipped 2015 528i Luxury Line, and a 2015 CTS VSport is over $8,600 less than a comparable 2015 550i M-Sport).

 

This is why I find Cadillac's struggles so worrisome. It's not due to a lack of effort.

We have to separate excellence of design / product from inept marketing and failing to connect with intended buyers.

Yes, GM raised the standard of the CTS purely with eyes on bMW 5 series but the real failure here was that Cadillac

did not convey that perception of superior product and value to intended buyers and here why,

 

Cadillac introduces smaller ATS first alongside heavily incentives on Sigma CTS for 12 months, completely undermines ATS price point

and then Cadillac Introduces Alpha CTS at +$10K over the price of the Sigma CTS, though larger outside, both versions of CTS are

remarkably close when it comes to interior dimensions. All of this set up a huge disconnect with existing customers and did not do

enough to lure sufficient cosnquest sales to replace that buyer deficit.

 

In addition to the above, GM continued to over produce bith ATS and CTS for near on 12 month before being forced to do something.

Cutting production and offering huge incentives to work down the massive 2014 inventory has completely undermined Cadillac's

premium pricing strategy - that's the point here, GM had unrealistic expectations going into this whole exercise and still does not

know how to market both of these vehicles to the intended audience.

 

How can Cadillac be so successful with products like Escalade and SRX and yet, get the car side of its business so wrong.

Edited April 4, 2015 by jpd80

[jpd80]

Leasing plays a big part in Luxury vehicle sales, get that right and a lot of other things fall into place.

[RichardJensen]

 

Psst... Rich... the BMW has a turbo-4 now too....

 

Really? The 728 is the only (n)28 that has a straight 6?

 

Basic point remains: There's no justification for pricing a Cadillac at ~95% of a similar BMW, because the buying public does not perceive that level of equivalence.

Edited April 4, 2015 by RichardJensen

[Fgts]

 

Then why is Cadillac spending so much money on their cars?

The money spent includes the lucrative CUVs and not just cars which still leads to my original point, because "everyone" buying CUVs don't mean cars can get neglected.

[RichardJensen]

The money spent includes the lucrative CUVs and not just cars which still leads to my original point, because "everyone" buying CUVs don't mean cars can get neglected.

 

Face it: Cadillac's decisions to (1) launch three all new cars before updating their CUVs or introducing a new CUV and (2) pricing those cars unrealistically is a failed strategy.

 

You cannot reasonably argue otherwise.

[papilgee4evaeva]

 

Really? The 728 is the only (n)28 that has a straight 6?

 

Basic point remains: There's no justification for pricing a Cadillac at ~95% of a similar BMW, because the buying public does not perceive that level of equivalence.

 

There's a 728? Man, what decade are you living in?

 

Your basic point, however, I agree with. That market is all about cachet.

[RichardJensen]

 

There's a 728? Man, what decade are you living in?

 

I guess I stopped paying attention to the last two numbers when they stopped meaning anything.

[papilgee4evaeva]

 

I guess I stopped paying attention to the last two numbers when they stopped meaning anything.

 

In the case of the 7 Series, that would be the late 90s. Right before Chris Bangle made his name infamous.

[Fgts]

 

Face it: Cadillac's decisions to (1) launch three all new cars before updating their CUVs or introducing a new CUV and (2) pricing those cars unrealistically is a failed strategy.

 

You cannot reasonably argue otherwise.

I'm not arguing against the CUVs launches but even with on-par dynamics the sedan Cadillacs still cost thousands less then a similar equipment Benz/Bimmer. The "thrifty luxury" crowd which Caddy was attracting is already headed to Buick or buying a XTS.