rmc523 Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 oh absolutely. Maybe not so much stretched but better utilization of greenhouse space. I have a feeling that the next Focus will be much better in that department because of all of the complaints about it No I think it'd need more rear seat legroom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grbeck Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 (edited) A Lincoln Focus would still flop, just like the Acura ILX has flopped. A B class crossover would sell better. The Acura ILX has flopped because the first version was not a definite step above a Civic. Just sitting in one at the auto show I knew that its price needed to be cut by a minimum of $3-4,000 to be taken seriously. But that puts it dangerously close to the Civic. Granted, the Mercedes CLA doesn't feel "premium" in many ways, but with that car, the buyer at least gets a three-pointed star on the hood to offset the aura of cheapness. Edited May 6, 2015 by grbeck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 No I think it'd need more rear seat legroom. im agreeing with you dude, im saying it night be able to be done without stretching the platform. They might be able to do it by just using the greenhouse space more efficiently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 im agreeing with you dude, im saying it night be able to be done without stretching the platform. They might be able to do it by just using the greenhouse space more efficiently. But how do you do that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
630land Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 Notice that there is no "Lexus Corolla". Anyway, GM is in better shape than Fiat-Chrysler, since there's no Fiat draining red ink. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 But how do you do that?i don't know, that's for engineers to figure out. I'm confident there is a way to do it though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 (edited) Notice that there is no "Lexus Corolla". We've had two of them already. Both are based on E150 Corolla platform. C-segment sedan is a key growth segment for luxury car brands on a worldwide basis. Lincoln needs something in this space ASAP. I would be shocked if the next generation Focus program does not include a compact Lincoln sedan in the mix for the Chinese market with possible US sales in mind as well. Edited May 6, 2015 by bzcat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 i don't know, that's for engineers to figure out. I'm confident there is a way to do it though But what do you mean by "use greenhouse space more efficiently?" That's what I'm asking. We've had two of them already. Both are based on E150 Corolla platform. C-segment sedan is a key growth segment for luxury car brands on a worldwide basis. Lincoln needs something in this space ASAP. I would be shocked if the next generation Focus program does not include a compact Lincoln sedan in the mix for the Chinese market with possible US sales in mind as well. Wasn't the HS dropped here a few years ago now? And I don't think the CT sells much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
630land Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 Maybe China, but here? They sell enough Ford compacts for CAFE, and there is already the MKZ hybrid. MKC is enough for an entry Lincoln, I think. Just look at the awful ATS sale for one thing. Anyway, isn't this about GM sales? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 Notice that there is no "Lexus Corolla". Anyway, GM is in better shape than Fiat-Chrysler, since there's no Fiat draining red ink. Cadillac's $12 billion spend in the next five years is a good proxy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fgts Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 Cadillac's $12 billion spend in the next five years is a good proxy... I have to ask how much money the trucks/SUVs will generate in that amount of time since GM is living on truck money and is the $12b a "drop in the bucket" or slightly more that GM spends on usual car programs (i bet the Epxx and Dxx platforms isn't cheap) . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 I have to ask how much money the trucks/SUVs will generate in that amount of time since GM is living on truck money and is the $12b a "drop in the bucket" or slightly more that GM spends on usual car programs (i bet the Epxx and Dxx platforms isn't cheap) . I'm just a bit concerned at how much money in total is being funnelled directly into Cadillac specific vehicles and away from GM's money earning trucks and Utilities, I think this is at the core of why GM still makes a profit but less than expected given the sheer total of vehicles produced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
630land Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 Should spread the $ 12B across all brands, Cadillac needs to stop bleeding red ink. First, fire the new manager, second tell them not to move to car hating NYC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 But what do you mean by "use greenhouse space more efficiently?" That's what I'm asking. Wasn't the HS dropped here a few years ago now? And I don't think the CT sells much. HS was dropped because it was getting killed by Lincoln MKZ hybrid. So Lexus replaced it with ES300h. CT sells fine... it is really popular in California. It was the biggest selling C-segment luxury brand vehicle in the US until Mercedes CLA and the new A3 sedan came out. It outsold BMW 1-series and the old Audi A3 hatchback handily. Quite impressive considering it is available only as a hatchback. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banker55 Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 I'm just a bit concerned at how much money in total is being funnelled directly into Cadillac specific vehicles and away from GM's money earning trucks and Utilities, I think this is at the core of why GM still makes a profit but less than expected given the sheer total of vehicles produced. Profits guess from Centre for Automotive Research at Germany's Duisburg-Essen University. CAR calculates that Toyota’s global profit margin is more than three times higher than the VW brand — at around the equivalent of $1,783 or 8.6 percent per car compared with VW’s $585 or 2.5 percent. GM makes $848 (4.2 percent) and Ford $683 (3.9 percent), according to CAR. Even Czech based Skoda, which makes a large range of cars using VW parts hidden under different bodywork, makes $1,110 per car.from(Neil Winton Detroit News) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 How can GM net about the same annual profit as Ford yet claim millions more car production globally and still head Ford in per car profit? In Europe and the rest of the world, gM and Ford's profits don't seem to really perform compared to the numbers of vehicles produced, maybe a lot more work on profit per car needs to be done in those regions. I wouldn't trust VW or Toyota accountancy practices, they tend to rely a lot of profit from currency shifts and one time non-cash exceptions. nothing surprises me after seeing FCA gain a $2.6 Billion profit last quarter from mostly deferred tax credits.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 (edited) How can GM net about the same annual profit as Ford yet claim millions more car production globally and still head Ford in per car profit? In Europe and the rest of the world, gM and Ford's profits don't seem to really perform compared to the numbers of vehicles produced, maybe a lot more work on profit per car needs to be done in those regions. I wouldn't trust VW or Toyota accountancy practices, they tend to rely a lot of profit from currency shifts and one time non-cash exceptions. nothing surprises me after seeing FCA gain a $2.6 Billion profit last quarter from mostly deferred tax credits.... Likely because whomever calculated those profit per unit for GM excluded Wuling, which would boost the profit per unit significantly. GM counts SAIC Wuling sales in its reported unit sales but it only owns 30% of the company so it is accounted for an an equity investment. Wuling is GM's 2nd highest selling brand behind Chevy but the margin is probably pretty low on these low cost vans. So excluding the units will boost the profit per unit quite a bit. Which brings me to the problem of calculating profit per unit for all the major car companies... because none of them consolidates their Chinese operation so you have to make some assumptions about what to include and what to exclude. Unless the assumption are the same for all car companies, you are comparing apples to oranges. As for the Toyota or VW's accounting practices, I'm sure they are above board and very good. Both Japan and Germany uses the same accounting rules and those international standards are not that much different than US GAAP that GM uses since the two standards have converged. Currency gains works for VW or Toyota just as they do for Ford or GM. Edited May 8, 2015 by bzcat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 Take a closer look at VW's quarterlies. I'm deeply suspicious of a company that frequently reports significant gains from "Other" operations that are not broken down in any detail whatsoever--especially when they are not accompanied by an increase in cash. That, to me, smacks of balance sheet adjustment of non-marketable assets and other chicanery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 From Autonews.com TOKYO -- Booming North American sales and big foreign exchange gains powered surging profits at Toyota Motor Corp. in the latest quarter while propelling record full-year earnings. Operating profit jumped 46 percent to 635.7 billion yen ($5.31 billion) in the carmaker’s fiscal fourth quarter ended March 31, compared with 436.1 billion yen ($3.65 billion) a year earlier, the company said today. Net income surged by more than half to 446.4 billion yen ($3.73 billion), from 297.0 billion yen ($2.48 billion) a year earlier. Global revenue advanced 8.4 percent to 7.12 trillion yen ($59.52 billion) in the period, despite a 2.4 percent drop in global retail sales to 2.542 million vehicles. Rising demand for higher-margin trucks in markets such as the United States helped the bottom line. North America regional operating profit surged 72 percent to 88 billion yen ($735.6 million) in the fiscal fourth quarter, from a year earlier. Yet Japan remained the company’s main profit engine, with the weaker Japanese yen pushing regional operating profit 23 percent higher to 427.8 billion ($3.58 billion) in the quarter. Operating profit in Europe slid 3.3 percent to 14.6 billion yen ($122.0 million) in the quarter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banker55 Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 How can GM net about the same annual profit as Ford yet claim millions more car production globally and still head Ford in per car profit? In Europe and the rest of the world, gM and Ford's profits don't seem to really perform compared to the numbers of vehicles produced, maybe a lot more work on profit per car needs to be done in those regions. I wouldn't trust VW or Toyota accountancy practices, they tend to rely a lot of profit from currency shifts and one time non-cash exceptions. nothing surprises me after seeing FCA gain a $2.6 Billion profit last quarter from mostly deferred tax credits.... Ford vs GM last quarter North America Units 678000 vs 829000 Revenue $20 billion vs $24.7 billion Rev per unit $29499 vs $29749 Profit $1.340 billion vs $2.2 billion Profit per unit $1976.40 vs $2653.799 It would also appear that GM will be taxed at about 28% vs 33% or 34% for Ford. Quarterly reports are too short term for comparisons. Europe still no good for both companies. Ford of Australia made more money in one day than GM of Europe over 15 years. Another note , VW vs Toyota... similar sales and production...600,000 employees' vs 350,000. Ford numbers will improve next quarter, but so will GM's . Should be interesting. Fords operating and free cash flow looks great and that is what pays the bills. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 (edited) The piece you missed was Global nett income after tax GM $900 million Ford $924 million: it is safe to conclude that GM still sells more vehicles world wide compared to Ford. Quarterly reports are too short term for comparisons. Ok, take a look at annual Nett Income over the last five years for both Ford and GM, I think you'll find that Ford leads GM more times than not and that's before we even talk about vehicle numbers... 2014 GM $2.8 Billion Ford : $3.2 Billion 2013 GM $3.8 Billion Ford $7.2 Billion 2012 GM $4.9 Billion Ford $5.7 Billion 2011 GM $9.19 Billion Ford $7.8 Billion (Plus $12.4 Billion non-cash from deferred tax assets) 2010 GM $6.7 Billion Ford $6.6 Billion 2009 GM $4.3 Billion LOSS Ford $2.7 Billion Indeed, both companies have a long way to go before they rival Toyota in earning profit. Edited May 9, 2015 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banker55 Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 The piece you missed was Global nett income after tax GM $900 million Ford $924 million: it is safe to conclude that GM still sells more vehicles world wide compared to Ford. Ok, take a look at annual Nett Income over the last five years for both Ford and GM, I think you'll find that Ford leads GM more times than not and that's before we even talk about vehicle numbers... 2014 GM $2.8 Billion Ford : $3.2 Billion 2013 GM $3.8 Billion Ford $7.2 Billion 2012 GM $4.9 Billion Ford $5.7 Billion 2011 GM $9.19 Billion Ford $7.8 Billion (Plus $12.4 Billion non-cash from deferred tax assets) 2010 GM $6.7 Billion Ford $6.6 Billion 2009 GM $4.3 Billion LOSS Ford $2.7 Billion Indeed, both companies have a long way to go before they rival Toyota in earning profit. I was just trying to show that the margins for both companies are not that great even in their strongest market. I noted a quarter is not a point of comparison. I believe Ford and GM make a very good profit on trucks and large SUV's and not much on cars. The cars drag down the average.(my guess,no facts). Fords success is key to my success as I read a Ford letter about my under funded Ford pension plan. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 (edited) Sorry Banker, didn't mean to take offensive tone to your post as I appreciate the effort you gave sourcing figures...... Understand your situation and hope that Ford does right by you and your pension plan. My pension fund is going up and down daily with stock market shifts in Australia so can appreciate how not even having that security is troubling, though I'd love to have a defined benefit instead of playing craps with my future.. Edited May 10, 2015 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 (edited) I was just trying to show that the margins for both companies are not that great even in their strongest market. I noted a quarter is not a point of comparison. I believe Ford and GM make a very good profit on trucks and large SUV's and not much on cars. The cars drag down the average.(my guess,no facts). Fords success is key to my success as I read a Ford letter about my under funded Ford pension plan. Up until this past year, Ford's NA margins have been pretty decent. And they're set up to have decent margins during the next (inevitable) recession. ~9% margins in NA w/steady reinvestment is okay. Heck, at this point, it's a lot better return than you'd get from a CD. And in terms of your pension--just be happy you're not a GM retiree. I think their funding debt is almost 2x Ford's. Edited May 10, 2015 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banker55 Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Up until this past year, Ford's NA margins have been pretty decent. And they're set up to have decent margins during the next (inevitable) recession. ~9% margins in NA w/steady reinvestment is okay. Heck, at this point, it's a lot better return than you'd get from a CD. And in terms of your pension--just be happy you're not a GM retiree. I think their funding debt is almost 2x Ford's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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