What should replace the gas V10? Should it be another V10?

[jpd80]

 

 

People keep saying that, but I don't think it is really an established fact.

There is no burden of proof required, the fact that Ford saw fit to re-use the superseded 6.8V10 for Medium Duty

application would seem to add weight to the rumor that the 6.2 V8 failed Medium Duty Durability testing.

 

At that point in time, one gas engine capacity could not cover Super Duty and Medium Duty, and still probably can't.

It also gets to the question of what Ford expects to achieve by offering a gas engine in Medium Duty, again it's not

to rival towing ability of the 6.7 Diesel so whatever is offered will be limited in torque and payload/towing ability.

 

The development costs of producing yet another new engine is probably prohibitive given the anticipated limited

sales numbers in medium Duty applications. So any engine suggested has to do more than simply replace the

6.8 V10, there has to be a serious cost advantage for Ford and that would have to include elimination of

one or possibly tow existing engine plants for a big jucy recurring cost saving. A V10 Coyote would do that.

Edited June 24, 2015 by jpd80

[7Mary3]

Volvo does O.K. in the U.S. class 7 and 8 markets, I think they are running 3rd. behind Freightliner and Navistar. Volvo also owns Mack, who is strong in the vocational market. Strangely Volvo/Mack has chosen to almost completely ignore the N.A. medium duty market though there was some speculation they were going to make a run at it with UD, another subsidiary they own. Personally I think Volvo would do better on the West Coast if they actually had a dealer or two......

 

Volvo AB has absolutely no connection to Ford Motor Company.

 

As for the question of what Ford wants to achieve by offering a gasoline engine in a medium duty truck, the answer is very simple. For a significant number of medium duty truck operators in North America, a gasoline engine medium duty offers lower overall cost of ownership. I know that is hard for some in other countries to believe, but it is very true.

 

I can say without question a 2003 Isuzu NPR with a 5.7L gas engine is FAR less expensive to own than a 2003 F-450 with a 6.0L Powerstroke! Sometimes I think we could have bought another NPR for what the F-450 cost us in repairs alone.

Edited June 24, 2015 by 7Mary3

[old_fairmont_wagon]

The 6.2L V8 may have durability problems at 6.2L, but perhaps may not have them if the bore was reduced to 6.0L and the water jackets around the cylinders expanded as a result. Then, if you added two more cylinders, you'd be at, what, 7.3L of displacement? But, then you'd have 20 spark plugs to replace... And, you'd need entirely new casting equipment for the whole affair as the 6.8L V-10 equipment has different bore centers and could largely not be reused.

 

Ford will either do another tech upgrade on the 6.8L V-10, find an innovative way of improving the 6.2L's cooling issues in medium duty usage, or have to develop an entirely new engine for gasoline medium duty applications. Since the volume for medium duty gasoline can't hope to cover the R&D costs for such an engine on its own, it'll have to include the superduty F-250 and 350 applications as well, replacing the 6.2L entirely. Even then, it'll be a tough sell to management. Essentially, it'll be a physically larger block than the 6.2L to have the required water jacket volume, but have to be no heavier than it to keep weight down in the superduty line. It'll have to be dimensionally small enough to fit in the superduty engine bay as well. That's a lot of demands for one engine.

 

I suspect that Ford will make one last big V-8 engine. It will scale from 6.5L to 8.0L in displacement, be designed for medium duty from the get-go, and probably be a DOHC TiVCT design with heads that look more like the 5.0L Coyote than the 6.2L BOSS. There won't be a whole lot of the basic design that will be very innovative, just carefully thought out decisions and common sense design. Materials may be rather advanced.

 

The other possibility may be some sort of rearchitecture of the 6.2L Boss engine that keeps the same bore centers, maybe raises the deck height slightly for a longer stroke with a smaller bore, that nets a much larger water jacket, but can still be produced with the same equipment. It'll probably start with a 6.0L displacement and have a 6.8L top end displacement in medium duty applications. They'll probably go for a DOHC TiVCT head with a single plug and PFI. The smaller 6.0L may include a pair of smallish turbos that give it the low RPM torque that it needs, but which bypass at higher RPMs. With diesel fuel still trending much more expensive than regular gasoline, and Europe now moving away from its love affair with Diesel, this may be the best time ever to investigate a true diesel alternative in the medium duty market.

[jpd80]

As for the question of what Ford wants to achieve by offering a gasoline engine in a medium duty truck, the answer is very simple. For a significant number of medium duty truck operators in North America, a gasoline engine medium duty offers lower overall cost of ownership. I know that is hard for some in other countries to believe, but it is very true.

 

I can say without question a 2003 Isuzu NPR with a 5.7L gas engine is FAR less expensive to own than a 2003 F-450 with a 6.0L Powerstroke! Sometimes I think we could have bought another NPR for what the F-450 cost us in repairs alone.

Sure, the cost of ownership is going to sway towards the one with least repair bills. but, what happens if that diesel is a more reliable 6.7 in today's F450?

 

I'm still not convinced that a heavily laden gas engine can deliver fuel economy within a bulls roar of a diesel

but my opinions are purely as an observer of the market, not an owner invested, seeking to make a living....

 

Other parts of the world with much higher fule prices, you just don't see gasoline at all, it's economic suicide.

Edited June 25, 2015 by jpd80

[7Mary3]

One problem here in North America is that the domestic class 4/5 diesel trucks are all far too overpowered and not very economical, all things considered. Thus, their operating economies are closer to gasoline engines. I would hazard to guess a 6.7L Powerstroke or similar would be economic suicide in many countries. No way would any of our diesels match the @5L Asian 4 cylinder diesels in fuel economy.

[Sevensecondsuv]

That's what it really boils down to - the 6.7 is way too powerful for 90% of class 2-5 applications. I understand why Ford did it - the class 2/3 diesel power wars of the last 15 or so years rivaled that of the 60s muscle car era and Ford had to compete. That's coming to an end due to the ever more complicated emission equipment on these trucks and the fact that the young generation buyers of these trucks (my generation) is losing interest as we mature, start families, and move on to endeavors other than suping up 3/4 ton pickups.

 

So Ford's diesel engine is about the right size for class 6-7 and fairly well suited to class 5 and 8 as well. I think getting the gas engine right is very important not only for the upper classes but also for the pickups as well. I can't tell you how many diesel 3/4 owners I know who still need a 3/4 ton but have proclaimed that they're done with diesels due to the extra expense and headache that comes with the insane amount of power that they've realized they just don't need.

Edited June 26, 2015 by Sevensecondsuv

[Biker16]

Sure, the cost of ownership is going to sway towards the one with least repair bills. but, what happens if that diesel is a more reliable 6.7 in today's F450?

 

I'm still not convinced that a heavily laden gas engine can deliver fuel economy within a bulls roar of a diesel

but my opinions are purely as an observer of the market, not an owner invested, seeking to make a living....

 

Other parts of the world with much higher fule prices, you just don't see gasoline at all, it's economic suicide.

 

I hear you, but this bring back into focus the need for a smaller Diesel engine for light duty trucks, and is that more of priority than a replacement for the V10?

[Biker16]

unrelated but this is nice video of the combustion technology being used in new Deisel engine. it kinda drives home how important the design of the cylinder and combustion chamber are to these advanced engines.

 

Edited June 26, 2015 by Biker16

[jpd80]

 

I hear you, but this bring back into focus the need for a smaller Diesel engine for light duty trucks, and is that more of priority than a replacement for the V10?

I'm thinking that Ford would be avoiding doing too many changes for the moment considering that the market may be easing slightly.

Better to watch and see what effect a Lighter Super Duty will have of sales of Gas engines in F250 wich is currently around 50-50.

Edited June 26, 2015 by jpd80

[7Mary3]

I am hearing (from a pretty reliable source, FWIW) that GM is working on a new heavy duty 7.0L gasoline/CNG/LNG engine that will likely be shared with Navistar

[twintornados]

I am hearing (from a pretty reliable source, FWIW) that GM is working on a new heavy duty 7.0L gasoline/CNG/LNG engine that will likely be shared with Navistar

I'm betting it will have pushrods too....

[7Mary3]

I'm betting it will have pushrods too....

 

I would say very likely. Along with an iron block and conventional (not direct) fuel injection.

[Fredvon4]

sevensecondsuv said

 

"I can't tell you how many diesel 3/4 owners I know who still need a 3/4 ton but have proclaimed that they're done with diesels due to the extra expense and headache that comes with the insane amount of power that they've realized they just don't need."

 

this was great insight as I originally had a 7.3L Powerstroke F350 that was insane and thirsty

 

when I bought a new truck I new nothing of the V10 but had also previously had a 460 V8 that would not pass a gas station

 

I opted for the $510 V10 (3 valve version) in my 2005 King Ranch F350 and 4.30:1 rear end.... I loved the power, smooth engine, lower recurring maintenance and nearly equivalent fuel economy

Was very sad to see that engine option dropped in the F250 F350 segment

It was interesting to me to see a LOT of V10 powered pumps and generators during Hurricane Katrina

[Sevensecondsuv]

Yep the V10 is working on a quite a legacy in industrial applications. After another 20 years it'll be nearly as legendary as the 300 inline six in industrial applications.

 

To me, the finest proof of a truck motor is its ability to perform well in 100% duty cycle industrial applications.

[Biker16]

sevensecondsuv said

 

"I can't tell you how many diesel 3/4 owners I know who still need a 3/4 ton but have proclaimed that they're done with diesels due to the extra expense and headache that comes with the insane amount of power that they've realized they just don't need."

 

this was great insight as I originally had a 7.3L Powerstroke F350 that was insane and thirsty

 

when I bought a new truck I new nothing of the V10 but had also previously had a 460 V8 that would not pass a gas station

 

I opted for the $510 V10 (3 valve version) in my 2005 King Ranch F350 and 4.30:1 rear end.... I loved the power, smooth engine, lower recurring maintenance and nearly equivalent fuel economy

Was very sad to see that engine option dropped in the F250 F350 segment

It was interesting to me to see a LOT of V10 powered pumps and generators during Hurricane Katrina

 

 

This is the problem I see with the gas vs Diesel battle.

 

you have the mega super Diesels like the Scorpion which match and exceed gas engines in horsepower yet offer little benift in efficency over gas engines and at an insane price premium.

 

The big Three pushed Diesels too far and forgot about the reasons buyer liked Diesels to begin with, their value and low operating costs.

 

with the underpowered 3.2 in the transit you see where the value equation for the traditional diesel buyer is.

 

http://www.fordtransitusaforum.com/ford-transit-mileage-mpgs/

 

it is where you can haul and tow alot but you care less about how fast it takes and more about how much fuel it takes to do it.

 

The fact is on a bad day the shaped like a brick transit Diesel can achieve grater than 20mpg with load, yet the Gassers will Struggle to exceed 15mpg with a similar load.

 

the Fact remains IMO if the diesle option is less the $3000 more than the gasser and can deliver Adequate performance under load with 30-40% better economy the buyers will return, if its gas diesel parity at a price premium and lack of operating cost reduction gas will always win.

 

My focus if i were ford would be to find that sweet spot where diesel can meet the operating cost/performance sweet spot and price it within reach of most buyers.

[Fredvon4]

Back in 2001 and again in 2004 when shopping for a F250 4x4 LB and F350 CC LB 4x4 the dealer had some neat spread sheet to attempt to show the PS diesel upgrade cost (+/- $5900 at the time) paid for it self in fuel economy over time. IIRC the comparison was against the base V8 @12MPG vs the 6.0L PS @ 16 mpg

 

When I pointed out the $5900 at some percent interest over the life of the loan increases the true cost of the Diesel and you must include periodic maintenance (oil, filters etc) the salesman was clueless that a customer might actually think of the total cost of ownership

 

Fact is, if the price differential would have been a more reasonable split, I never would have bothered with the math of it and probably got the diesel based on my typical 10+ years of use....but in my case with 80~90% of the power, significantly less periodic maintenance cost, only a 4 mpg difference with diesel costing $.55 more per gallon, the $510 V10 option made more sense. The only real hit I took was the 3 or 4 family vacations a year with a 19,000Lb TT in tow dropped my MPG to 7~9

 

So far for the life of this truck she averaged 13.7mpg doing light hauling duty (under 5000LBs) and daily work site visits

 

Only above normal cost of engine maintenance was my attempt at spark plug replacement @65,000 miles yielded a broken plug and not wanting to break them all I took it in a paid $425 for a plug change. At 58,000 miles she need a front seal in the differential ($125)

 

Fifth Ford truck since 1968 all kept over 8 years and so far this work horse has been the least expensive to own despite the premium I paid for King ranch (semi) luxury

 

Did I mention that I love the 3v V10 415 cube engine....grin

Edited July 19, 2015 by Fredvon4