jpd80 Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 (edited) The one thing that you notice with a powershift and lift the foot off the brake and the engagement of clutch, it's a little different to the auto where the converter has a bit of drag even with the brake on. I'm not against the DSG in lighter vehicles, just the way Ford hurt their prospects with the underperforming Dry clutch versions, they can and will do much better. On the engine front, the 1.5 EB in Focus works really well in either 6-speed manual and 6-speed auto stepping out of a 2.0 DI PS into the 1.5 EB 6AT is like the car finally hitting its marks. That future 1.2 Ecoboost engine has me intrigued , power/torque in line with 2.0 DI, a real opportunity to deliver a better package for American buyers than the 1.0 EB. Edited October 9, 2015 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 they launched it with out a dedicated TCU People don't like it even when it works right. And as far as assigning blame for the DCT goes, you need to first define what you mean by "FNA", since C2 was a global project with key decisions signed off on by a C-level exec. Are you saying that construction of a DCT plant in Mexico 'proves' that engineers in Dearborn sold Kuzak on the DCT against the better judgment of engineers in Cologne? Because that's really a stretch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 We try to convince ourselves that cars are the same the world over but the truth is that regional differences are still there, the US and Canada are still predominantly automatic transmission markets where as Europe is the complete opposite so no wonder vehicles developed in one region and extended globally, sometimes miss their marks in either of those two major locations. We now have the perculiarity of Europe and ROW markets now having a 6F auto equipped Focus and the North America being stuck with a DSC Powershifr auto alternative. Talk about pants on backwards... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 It is far more likely that there were engineers on both sides of the Atlantic that thought the DCT was a good idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 (edited) It is far more likely that there were engineers on both sides of the Atlantic that thought the DCT was a good idea. yeah and it probably is but that support was hurt by the dry clutch unit, I do hope a wet clutch helps redeem that and takes the experience further than simply a 6F auto replacement.... could we see 7-speed? Edit, It all comes down to why a buyer should choose a Focus over a competitor's product, in having stand out. points of differentiation is key(1.5 EB, good DSG, space, superior trim , styling). Edited October 9, 2015 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biker16 Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 yeah and it probably is but that support was hurt by the dry clutch unit, I do hope a wet clutch helps redeem that and takes the experience further than simply a 6F auto replacement.... could we see 7-speed? Edit, It all comes down to why a buyer should choose a Focus over a competitor's product, in having stand out. points of differentiation is key(1.5 EB, good DSG, space, superior trim , styling). JPD in order for Ford to meet CAFE and emissions target they have to move forward with a non-traditional ATX for their bread and butter vehicles. that included every application both FWD and AWD and less than 220ft/lbs. That would cover C/D -> B segments, all at less cost and weight than a 9 speed conventional automatic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 That would cover C/D -> B segments, all at less cost and weight than a 9 speed conventional automatic. Shouldn't we wait and see what the cost, weight and performance of the new 9 spd is before making that type of judgement? Ford knows how to do those cost/benefit calculations as well as factor in customer satisfaction. I trust whatever decision they make even if we don't agree with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 (edited) JPD in order for Ford to meet CAFE and emissions target they have to move forward with a non-traditional ATX for their bread and butter vehicles. Citation needed. Edited October 12, 2015 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron W. Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Citation needed. Aww man here comes another picture of a Chevy ...... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Aww man here comes another picture of a Chevy ...... Nope. This is a Ford site. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 It is far more likely that achieving CAFE targets will require going hybrid vs. the few percentage points obtained from switching the same engine to an automated manual or CVT trans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biker16 Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Shouldn't we wait and see what the cost, weight and performance of the new 9 spd is before making that type of judgement? Ford knows how to do those cost/benefit calculations as well as factor in customer satisfaction. I trust whatever decision they make even if we don't agree with it. Fair enough Citation needed. nevermind. Ford has spoken to the tune of $1.3 billion for a JV with getrag in Mexico. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 That's not the whole picture, Biker, and you know it: http://money.cnn.com/2013/04/15/autos/ford-gm-transmission/index.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Ford has spoken to the tune of $1.3 billion for a JV with getrag in Mexico. But it just says that's for 2 all new transmissions. Where does it say it has to be a low cost high volume DCT for small cars? The GT gets a Getrag DCT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biker16 Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 (edited) But it just says that's for 2 all new transmissions. Where does it say it has to be a low cost high volume DCT for small cars? The GT gets a Getrag DCT. http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/ford-s-2-5b-engine-plant-to-be-built-in-mexico-1.3038131 Ford Motor Co said on Friday will spend $2.5 billion to build a new generation of fuel-efficient engines and transmissions in Mexico, creating 3,800 jobs. The company said it will also build a transmission plant in the central state of Guanajuato, in partnership with German transmission maker Getrag. Mexico's Economy Minister Ildefonso Guajardo said the Guanajuato plant would have the capacity to produce up to 800,000 units per year. Ford's announcement, confirming an earlier Reuters report, is the latest in a recent series of auto investments in Mexico, as carmakers are drawn to the country's cheap labor, free trade agreements, and proximity to the United States. Build a transmission plant in the central state of Guanajuato, in partnership with German transmission maker Getrag the capacity to produce up to 800,000 units per year. Edited October 12, 2015 by Biker16 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 But it doesn't say those are powershift DCTs for small cars. Never mind - I think we're talking past each other again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron W. Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Nope. This is a Ford site. Cool and I learned something new, didn't know Edsel made a Citation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 JPD in order for Ford to meet CAFE and emissions target they have to move forward with a non-traditional ATX for their bread and butter vehicles. that included every application both FWD and AWD and less than 220ft/lbs. That would cover C/D -> B segments, all at less cost and weight than a 9 speed conventional automatic. From what i gather, the required minimum CAFE sticker value for Fiesta by 2021 rises to 38 mpg so by that reasoning, current CAFE numbers for the larger footprint Focus are more than satisfactory until then, the only vehicles near the bump would be ST and RS versions. It may well be that Ford does indeed go to a lightweight wet clutch DSG but your perceived need for urgency with fuel economy does not appear to be the primary driver - the lower weight of a combined Fiesta-Focus platform may be enough improvement. A super low cost 7-speed DCT trans for 1.5 EB and lower may be just the ticket for added cost savings in a lot of Ford vehicles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomcat68 Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Cool and I learned something new, didn't know Edsel made a Citation. Pacer, Ranger, and Villager were also Edsel names. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biker16 Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 But it doesn't say those are powershift DCTs for small cars. Never mind - I think we're talking past each other again. why involve Getrag unless you are building a DCT or manual transmission. They don't make CVTs or convetional automatics anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 why involve Getrag unless you are building a DCT or manual transmission. They don't make CVTs or convetional automatics anymore. Here is a clue - what other soon to be released Ford vehicle uses a Getrag DCT? Hint - it ain't a Fiesta. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 (edited) I found this: LINK Ford has also announced the building of its first transmission facility in Mexico, to be constructed within Getrag's plant in Irapuato in the state of Guanajuato. The $1.2-billion investment will create 2,000 new jobs and be charged with exporting two new automatic transmissions to markets around the world. Two new automated transmissions (not necessarily automatics IMO) We could be seeing Dual clutch transmissions for Ecoboost and Euro Diesel or is it a new hybrid transmission? Edited October 13, 2015 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Here is a clue - what other soon to be released Ford vehicle uses a Getrag DCT? Hint - it ain't a Fiesta. They're not going to go halvsies on a $1.3B factory for niche products. I'm guessing at least one of the transmissions will be a wet DCT, and it will go in small Ford products; however the production capacity at this plant suggests that the 'bread and butter' automatic will remain the GM JV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 They're not going to go halvsies on a $1.3B factory for niche products. I'm guessing at least one of the transmissions will be a wet DCT, and it will go in small Ford products; however the production capacity at this plant suggests that the 'bread and butter' automatic will remain the GM JV. Exactly, Ford -Getrag Mexico JV is to be an extension on an existing plant it beacons as a low cost production center for not only Europe but also fo Asia and maybe even China too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biker16 Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 They're not going to go halvsies on a $1.3B factory for niche products. I'm guessing at least one of the transmissions will be a wet DCT, and it will go in small Ford products; however the production capacity at this plant suggests that the 'bread and butter' automatic will remain the GM JV. the ( speed will domnate everything with the EB2.0 and higher.and be bread and butter for North America but everything using the EB1.5 and below will use the DCT. the New DCt could also represents a turning point for FOE and the winding down of centralized global component production in the EU. Exactly, Ford -Getrag Mexico JV is to be an extension on an existing plant it beacons as a low cost production center for not only Europe but also fo Asia and maybe even China too. Exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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