jpd80 Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 Quote Ford investigating possible problems with fuel economy, emissions tests February 21, 2019 05:04 PM updated 12 minutes ago JOE WHITE Reuters...via autonews DETROIT -- Ford Motor Co. said on Thursday it had hired outside experts to investigate its vehicle fuel economy and testing procedures after employees raised concerns, and did not know whether it would have to correct data given to regulators or consumers. The investigation and concerns involving Ford's testing processes do not involve the use of so-called defeat devices -- hardware and software designed deliberately to deceive government emissions tests, Kimberly Pittel, Ford's group vice president for sustainability, environment and safety engineering, told Reuters on Thursday. The automaker since last fall has been investigating concerns raised by employees that incorrect calculations were used to translate test results into the mileage and emissions data submitted to regulators, Pittel said. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "We have voluntarily shared this information" with the EPA and the California Air Resources Board, Pittel said. Ford notified the agencies this week, she said. The EPA said in a statement on Thursday that information from Ford's investigation is "too incomplete for EPA to reach any conclusions. We take the potential issues seriously and are following up with the company to fully understand the circumstances behind this disclosure." The investigation has started with testing of the 2019 Ranger pickup truck, and the company expects data back next week, Pittel said. Pittel said it was not clear what impact the review will have on advertised mileage or fuel economy data submitted to regulators, nor is it clear how many vehicles could be affected if Ford is required to revise the data. "We are going to go where the investigation takes us," she said. By the tone of the report it's obvious that Ford thinks it has overstated advertised mileages otherwise it would be more up beat. I wonder if this is a case of the new roll down correction factors not being applied.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ausrutherford Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 Don't think there is an automated yet that hasn't been hit by this bug. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonj80 Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 It could be that they were including things for mileage credits like LED taillights/Headlights in all their testing numbers when they don't meat the requirements for number of units installed for the line credit, or in the case of the '19 Escape not updating the numbers when they were removed and the vehicles went to incandescent bulbs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 I saw something about the factor used to account for road friction. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan1 Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 Surprised this only has 3 responses. The trolls on putc have talked about it more and there isn't even an article on it yet. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted February 23, 2019 Author Share Posted February 23, 2019 35 minutes ago, Bryan1 said: Surprised this only has 3 responses. The trolls on putc have talked about it more and there isn't even an article on it yet. The investigation is only beginning, how many vehicles and for how long is anyone's guess but the Fact that Ford volunteered the information and is fully cooperating will probably lead to leniency. I think that the general consensus at the moment is to wait and see what comes out in the next few weeks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoonerLS Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 1 hour ago, Bryan1 said: Surprised this only has 3 responses. The trolls on putc have talked about it more and there isn't even an article on it yet. What kind of discussion are you expecting at this point? It's not like we have any actual facts to discuss. I guess we could critique the grammar and style of the articles on the topic, but that seems like low-hanging fruit... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted February 23, 2019 Author Share Posted February 23, 2019 Quote Ford probably tripped by emissions math, expert says DAVID WELCH and GABRIELLE COPPOLA February 22, 2019 11:19 AM https://www.autonews.com/regulation-safety/ford-probably-tripped-emissions-math-expert-says Ford Motor Co.’s discovery that its emission testing could be flawed highlights a measurement challenge that can easily lead to mistakes by carmakers, according to a clean-air advocate who helped expose Volkswagen Group’s cheating. Automakers have a tough time estimating road load -- industry jargon for factors that can reduce fuel economy, including friction, weight and aerodynamics, said John German, an independent consultant who recently left the International Council on Clean Transportation. This means manufacturers can make errors when estimating the fuel economy and emissions on the many variations of vehicle they sell, he said. It’s expensive to test every model and all configurations, so carmakers use computer modeling, and the EPA encourages it, German said. Regulators may be relatively lenient with Ford, since the company has flagged concerns to regulators before making firm determinations of problematic certifications, he said. “It sounds like somebody messed up,” said German, whose team at ICCT helped discover Volkswagen’s diesel emissions cheat device in 2015. “But if Ford voluntarily came forward and will revise CO2 emissions calculations and mileage values, chances are there won’t even be any fines.” Just posting the above as further information...... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 2 hours ago, jpd80 said: Just posting the above as further information...... Good info, thank you jpd80 sir. Here's the guidance document from EPA about applying road-load force and dynamometer settings correctly for vehicles under test. Pretty intricate stuff. Gotta respect the engineers who do this type of work. https://iaspub.epa.gov/otaqpub/display_file.jsp?docid=34102&flag=1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted February 24, 2019 Author Share Posted February 24, 2019 The problem was discovered last September so Ford had five months to check everything and run a few tests before going public, I think they already know the extent of the problem and what comes next - it's always good to know instead of going in blind. I see the Ranger 4x4 fuel figures have been taken down form the EPA website. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe771476 Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 If you knew how schools are teaching kids how to multiply two, 2-digit numbers you'd understand! They have to draw a box and place the numbers in a certain way! It took my grandson 2 minutes to show me! My old-school way took me 5 seconds. The dumbing down of America. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan1 Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 On 2/23/2019 at 4:17 PM, SoonerLS said: What kind of discussion are you expecting at this point? I don't know. I was expected there to be a multi-page response and there were only 3 comments. TFL Truck has 139 comments on it. Maybe people aren't into discussion boards as much as they used to be. As an aside I haven't visited f150online in over a year and I used to post there regularly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoonerLS Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 18 hours ago, Bryan1 said: I don't know. I was expected there to be a multi-page response and there were only 3 comments. TFL Truck has 139 comments on it. Maybe people aren't into discussion boards as much as they used to be. As an aside I haven't visited f150online in over a year and I used to post there regularly. First, what I posted could've come across as snarky, but it wasn't intended that way. My apologies if it did. Second, I'm sure there will be plenty of discussion, but it's hard to talk about such an amorphous situation when all Ford has said so far is, basically, "umm, we found some possible errors in an arcane calculation related to emissions numbers." There's just not a lot of "there" there yet. I'm kind of surprised that it has gotten as much mileage as it has so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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