1TonOFun Posted June 5, 2021 Share Posted June 5, 2021 I ordered a F350 CCSB Lariat with 18” All Terrain tires. After lurking on this forum I found the 2022 Towing Guide and noticed the conventional tow rating for both the 250 and 350 is 5,000 pounds less if you have the 18” All Terrain option. 18” All Season and 20” All Terrain get a 20,000 pound rating, 18” All Terrain and Tremor package get a 15,000 pound rating. Fifth Wheel/Gooseneck ratings are not lower for the 18” All Terrain. I looked in the 2021 Towing Guide and couldn’t find a rating that covered 18” All Terrain tires. What am I missing? Why would the 18” All Terrains be rated so much lower for conventional towing but not fifth wheel towing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottK1 Posted June 6, 2021 Share Posted June 6, 2021 It's the Tremor suspension that limits towing on Tremors. They all have 18" All Terrain Tires. I think they mean if you have those tires and you have Tremor, you are limited. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1TonOFun Posted June 6, 2021 Author Share Posted June 6, 2021 I guess what confuses me is that to get the 20,000 lbs. they specifically note it is with 18” All Season or 20” All terrain. My reading of it is that the only way to get the 20,000 lb. rating. The notes on the 15,000 lb. rating are separate for Tremor, which I understand, and 18” All Terrain. I realize Tremor comes with 18” All Terrain tires but the second note makes me think it refers to non-Tremor trucks. I’m going to go with 20” to be sure, just seems odd. Thanks for the input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick1236 Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 On 6/6/2021 at 4:30 PM, 1TonOFun said: I guess what confuses me is that to get the 20,000 lbs. they specifically note it is with 18” All Season or 20” All terrain. My reading of it is that the only way to get the 20,000 lb. rating. The notes on the 15,000 lb. rating are separate for Tremor, which I understand, and 18” All Terrain. I realize Tremor comes with 18” All Terrain tires but the second note makes me think it refers to non-Tremor trucks. I’m going to go with 20” to be sure, just seems odd. Thanks for the input. the factory tires used for the 18" All Terrains simply could not be rated for the weight. You could keep your 18" wheels and upgrade your tires later to something with a higher rating and then you wouldn't be bound by the tire weight rating and instead move to max payload or even axle rating as your limiting factors. Replacing 20" tires is way more expensive than 18s. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1TonOFun Posted June 23, 2021 Author Share Posted June 23, 2021 2 hours ago, Nick1236 said: the factory tires used for the 18" All Terrains simply could not be rated for the weight. You could keep your 18" wheels and upgrade your tires later to something with a higher rating and then you wouldn't be bound by the tire weight rating and instead move to max payload or even axle rating as your limiting factors. Replacing 20" tires is way more expensive than 18s. While I can understand that being a possible problem I’m not sure that’s the case here as there is no difference in the fifth wheel tow rating. Maybe it has something to do with a bumper pull having more sway issues and that particular tire’s sidewall can’t handle the sway. Just doesn’t make sense that there is no de-rating for fifth wheel but a 25% de-rating for conventional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chadstickpoindexter Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 I don’t understand this. I just upgraded my order with the HCTT package to maximize my weight carrying capabilities on my 250 (it’s a 6.7 and also has the snow plow/camper package, so it should basically be a 350 at this point…) For 18” A/S tires I know they have used the Continental Contitrac’s. For the LT275/65R18’s these have a max load of 3,415 lbs. I know they also use Goodyear Wranglers as an A/T option. In a LT275/70R18 these have a max load of 3,640 lbs! Sure these are just 2 examples, but I know Ford has used them as I have seen them both on trucks, and I have seen what you are talking about in their towing guide, but the A/T tire clearly has a higher load rating, so how can they derate the towing capacity by 5000 lbs? I sure hope that’s a mistake and my truck won’t be derated because I opted for 18”A/T tires, after adding on the packages to maximize these numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick1236 Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 43 minutes ago, 1TonOFun said: While I can understand that being a possible problem I’m not sure that’s the case here as there is no difference in the fifth wheel tow rating. Maybe it has something to do with a bumper pull having more sway issues and that particular tire’s sidewall can’t handle the sway. Just doesn’t make sense that there is no de-rating for fifth wheel but a 25% de-rating for conventional. well the towing guide is just that, a guide. there are multiple ratings that determine your towing capacity. if you really wanna get precise you need to find the rating for the tires on your specific truck the rating of each axle the GVWR the GCVWR and the Payload Capacity your maximum tow rating is going to be determined by the lowest of these. One way or another you will never be able to fully maximize each one without going over on another somewhere, hence the towing guide takes the general value in most circumstances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chadstickpoindexter Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 (edited) 18 hours ago, Nick1236 said: well the towing guide is just that, a guide. there are multiple ratings that determine your towing capacity. I understand that there are multiple ratings and they all just boil down to basically the lowest, but the examples I gave above show that the A/T tire have a higher load rating than the A/S tire (both 18's)... so I don't understand this... Especially after adding both the snow plow/camper package and the HCTT package to my 250, I would hope that simply because I chose the 18 A/T tires it isn't going to decrease the official numbers on *my* truck by 5000 lbs! I posted the load ratings for the 18 A/S and A/T tires above and the A/T tires have the higher rating by 225 lbs. Even if it were the other way around, how in the world would that drop the towing capacity by 5000 lbs? I added the HCTT to my truck so that I could get the higher GVWR (10800 vs 10000) and the higher GCWR (30000 vs 23500) and presumably the higher conventional tow rating (20000 vs 15000). What's interesting, on that towing guide, in order to get the 30000 GVWR it is noted that the HCTT package is required and then also bumps the GVWR up to 10800 lbs, but with no mention of which tires are required for these weights. I'm hoping that they just made a mistake on the "guide"... or maybe I am just not understanding it (which I accept is possible). What's also interesting is that on that same line (for the 3.31 rear end) under max weight carrying/distribution there is no weight indicated for 18" A/T tires... it only says 20000 and then indicates that this weight requires 18 A/S or 20 A/T tires... so with 18 A/T, what is the number then? There's not one listed. Edited June 23, 2021 by chadstickpoindexter Added screenshot 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harmacist Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 48 minutes ago, chadstickpoindexter said: I understand that there are multiple ratings and they all just boil down to basically the lowest, but the examples I gave above show that the A/T tire have a higher load rating than the A/S tire (both 18's)... so I don't understand this... Especially after adding both the snow plow/camper package and the HCTT package to my 250, I would hope that simply because I chose the 18 A/T tires it isn't going to decrease the official numbers on *my* truck by 5000 lbs! I posted the load ratings for the 18 A/S and A/T tires above and the A/T tires have the higher rating by 225 lbs. Even if it were the other way around, how in the world would that drop the towing capacity by 5000 lbs? I added the HCTT to my truck so that I could get the higher GVWR (10800 vs 10000) and the higher GCWR (30000 vs 23500) and presumably the higher conventional tow rating (20000 vs 15000). What's interesting, on that towing guide, in order to get the 30000 GVWR it is noted that the HCTT package is required and then also bumps the GVWR up to 10800 lbs, but with no mention of which tires are required for these weights. I'm hoping that they just made a mistake on the "guide"... or maybe I am just not understanding it (which I accept is possible). What's also interesting is that on that same line (for the 3.31 rear end) under max weight carrying/distribution there is no weight indicated for 18" A/T tires... it only says 20000 and then indicates that this weight requires 18 A/S or 20 A/T tires... so with 18 A/T, what is the number then? There's not one listed. Man I completely understand your confusion, I’m right there with you. It can’t have anything to do with the load rating on the tire because they have the same towing capacity for gooseneck/5th wheel towing which would be under higher load any way due to not only the higher tow capacity but also the higher 15% recommended tongue weight vs the 10% tongue weight of conventional towing. Maybe I’m completely missing something but that’s something I didn’t see the first look through the towing guide 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chadstickpoindexter Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 13 minutes ago, harmacist said: Maybe I’m completely missing something but that’s something I didn’t see the first look through the towing guide Same here… I just looked at the fact that I would need the HCTT package to get the overall higher weights (so I added it). And I’ll admit, I’m new to all of this, but I could have sworn I read somewhere else that by going with A/T tires over A/S tires on certain models (I think in the 350’s) was one way to get a slightly higher weight rating. But this towing guide seems to contradict that, as well as the actual load ratings of the tires themselves. Again, maybe I am just not reading it correctly or just missing something all together but it doesn’t make sense. Hope someone can clarify this (and that I still have the higher ratings with my choices.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harmacist Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 20 minutes ago, chadstickpoindexter said: Same here… I just looked at the fact that I would need the HCTT package to get the overall higher weights (so I added it). And I’ll admit, I’m new to all of this, but I could have sworn I read somewhere else that by going with A/T tires over A/S tires on certain models (I think in the 350’s) was one way to get a slightly higher weight rating. But this towing guide seems to contradict that, as well as the actual load ratings of the tires themselves. Again, maybe I am just not reading it correctly or just missing something all together but it doesn’t make sense. Hope someone can clarify this (and that I still have the higher ratings with my choices.) Same, I priced out a 250 with all the packages to get the higher #s and it was so close to the price of a 350 I just ordered that. But I also ordered the FX4 package which added the AT tires and apparently decreased my towing capacity lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chadstickpoindexter Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 15 minutes ago, harmacist said: Same, I priced out a 250 with all the packages to get the higher #s and it was so close to the price of a 350 I just ordered that. But I also ordered the FX4 package which added the AT tires and apparently decreased my towing capacity lol Yeah, a 350 wasn't much more expensive than what I ended up with (about $1500), but with what I have ordered, it will be more than I actually need... I did like the thought of adding in the extra buffers just to "make the most out of what it is" though. But for this reason, I didn't really need to go to a 350. In the future if we ever decide we want a "big" camper, we would just jump up to a DRW 450! So, when you added the FX4 package to your 350 did it show up that it decreased the towing amounts? I haven't seen any notification about that package decreasing it, only the Tremor package. Also, FWIW, in the 2022 Body Builders Guide on page 5, it lists a F250 with the 10800 lb GVWR as having a 30000 lb GCWR... it doesn't show towing numbers in the Body Builder Guide, but it would be weird that even with A/T tires, the GCWR could increase from 235000 to 30000 without any mention to a specific type or size of tire to be required, but that somehow it would change the towing capacity listed on the towing guide (also note that the GVWR stays the same on the Towing guide without regard to any specific tire or size too). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harmacist Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 (edited) 21 minutes ago, chadstickpoindexter said: Yeah, a 350 wasn't much more expensive than what I ended up with (about $1500), but with what I have ordered, it will be more than I actually need... I did like the thought of adding in the extra buffers just to "make the most out of what it is" though. But for this reason, I didn't really need to go to a 350. In the future if we ever decide we want a "big" camper, we would just jump up to a DRW 450! So, when you added the FX4 package to your 350 did it show up that it decreased the towing amounts? I haven't seen any notification about that package decreasing it, only the Tremor package. Also, FWIW, in the 2022 Body Builders Guide on page 5, it lists a F250 with the 10800 lb GVWR as having a 30000 lb GCWR... it doesn't show towing numbers in the Body Builder Guide, but it would be weird that even with A/T tires, the GCWR could increase from 235000 to 30000 without any mention to a specific type or size of tire to be required, but that somehow it would change the towing capacity listed on the towing guide (also note that the GVWR stays the same on the Towing guide without regard to any specific tire or size too). Not that I saw, also the reason I went F350 to get the best payload possible out of the configuration I wanted and the GCWR is just a set 30k with the diesel F350 with no stipulations or anything. From getting into camping (or glancing since I’m literally taking a house with me haha) about 6 years ago and between 2 campers I’ve learned not to put a lot of credence into the listed towing capacity as I’ve maxed out my payload every time before I’ve gone over the listed towing capacity when you add my family and a full truck bed with gear. Edited June 23, 2021 by harmacist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chadstickpoindexter Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 Yeah, for us, between passengers (including driver), cargo and camper tongue weight we should be at no more than 1750 lb at the most, but more realistically at 1600 lb. Before adding the HCTT package I was estimating our truck to have around a 2200-ish payload. Now that I have added the HCTT package though I’m hoping for closer to 2700! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick1236 Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 (edited) On 6/23/2021 at 4:11 PM, harmacist said: Not that I saw, also the reason I went F350 to get the best payload possible out of the configuration I wanted and the GCWR is just a set 30k with the diesel F350 with no stipulations or anything. From getting into camping (or glancing since I’m literally taking a house with me haha) about 6 years ago and between 2 campers I’ve learned not to put a lot of credence into the listed towing capacity as I’ve maxed out my payload every time before I’ve gone over the listed towing capacity when you add my family and a full truck bed with gear. I will add that if you getting serious into camping and plan on ordering a large fifth wheel (anything over GVWR 15k) I would skip the F250 all together and immediately go F350 dually. even if you are within spec of the F250 you will wish you had the bigger truck for a trailer that size. Edited June 30, 2021 by Nick1236 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chadstickpoindexter Posted July 1, 2021 Share Posted July 1, 2021 11 hours ago, Nick1236 said: I will add that if you getting serious into camping and plan on ordering a large fifth wheel (anything over GVWR 15k) I would skip the F250 all together and immediately go F350 dually. even if you are within spec of the F250 you will wish you had the bigger truck for a trailer that size. We don’t have any plans for a 5th wheel, but I’d even say for that just go with a 450 and skip the 350. The price difference is minimal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirage Flatter Posted July 3, 2021 Share Posted July 3, 2021 On 6/5/2021 at 12:02 AM, 1TonOFun said: What am I missing? Why would the 18” All Terrains be rated so much lower for conventional towing but not fifth wheel towing? Based on 40 + years experience in towing all kinds of trailers, I’m inclined to think that these ratings aren’t based on the type of tire, but on the fact that gooseneck or fifth wheel towing spreads the load of the trailer over the whole towing vehicle, and not just on the rear end, ie conventional towing. Make sense? Just my $.02, for what it’s worth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chadstickpoindexter Posted July 3, 2021 Share Posted July 3, 2021 19 minutes ago, Mirage Flatter said: Based on 40 + years experience in towing all kinds of trailers, I’m inclined to think that these ratings aren’t based on the type of tire, but on the fact that gooseneck or fifth wheel towing spreads the load of the trailer over the whole towing vehicle, and not just on the rear end, ie conventional towing. Make sense? Just my $.02, for what it’s worth. I don't think that makes sense either because a weight distribution hitch for a bumper pull also spreads weight out over the whole vehicle. Regardless, if a tire is rated for a lower load rating, then it will be lower, period. And as I pointed out above, the typically used 18" A/T tire has a higher load rating than the typically used 18" A/S tire... so that still doesn't make sense. I actually went by the dealers yesterday and talked to them about this... an no one could figure out why this is listed like this. I don't guess that's saying too much, but it is interesting that everyone agrees that it doesn't make sense given that the A/T tire is rated higher than the A/S tire to begin with. We also thought it was odd that under the conventional ratings, it simply listed 20,000 and noted the this weight required the 18" A/S tire or the 20" A/T tire, but there was no listed rating for the 18" A/T tire. So, if this is the case, what is the weight rating then?? IMO, this is a typo that has been copied and pasted since 2020... at least until someone can prove it wrong or state actual facts as to why this anomaly could even be right... for now though, I am leaving my 18" A/T tires as my selection. With the HCTT package added to a F250, it won't affect the GCVWR (30,000 lb) or the GVWR (10800 lb), so it won't really matter... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1TonOFun Posted July 3, 2021 Author Share Posted July 3, 2021 @Mirage Flatter I’ve been towing for 40+ years as well which is why I don’t understand why that one tire gets a significantly lower rating than the other two for conventional towing. My point about fifth wheel towing was the guide didn’t downgrade it for fifth wheel but significantly downgraded for conventional. I agree with @chadstickpoindexter that it’s probably a typo. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirage Flatter Posted July 3, 2021 Share Posted July 3, 2021 48 minutes ago, 1TonOFun said: @Mirage Flatter I’ve been towing for 40+ years as well which is why I don’t understand why that one tire gets a significantly lower rating than the other two for conventional towing. My point about fifth wheel towing was the guide didn’t downgrade it for fifth wheel but significantly downgraded for conventional. I agree with @chadstickpoindexter that it’s probably a typo. Yeah, I don’t know, and I don’t disagree with what you’re saying. Perhaps the tire manufacturers derate certain tires in bumper pull vs gooseneck/fifth wheel situations, although you’d sure think that if a tire was rated for say 3042 lbs @ 80 psi cold, that would be the load carrying capacity, period, excepting dual wheel applications. I know we’re getting the 18” A/T tires on our new F250 as that’s what the FX4 package specifies. I guess if I’m not happy with the tires and their load carrying capacity if and when it arrives, I’ll just do a tire swap. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chadstickpoindexter Posted July 3, 2021 Share Posted July 3, 2021 5 minutes ago, Mirage Flatter said: I guess if I’m not happy with the tires and their load carrying capacity if and when it arrives, I’ll just do a tire swap. Same here, however, what I am trying to figure out is if the truck will have any derated weight carrying capacities due to the fact that I am ordering it original with A/T tires. Like I mentioned, it looks like the GCVWR is 30K simply with the HCTT package, regardless of the tires, and the HCTT package will also result in a 10800 GVWR regardless of tires... at least that I can see mentioned anywhere. Are the towing capacities documented/stickered on the truck the same way the GVWR and the payload is? If not then I don't guess it matters... I just don't want it to derate the truck since I spent the extra money to upgrade both, the front and rear end to get the most rating available (considering it's diesel). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirage Flatter Posted July 3, 2021 Share Posted July 3, 2021 3 hours ago, chadstickpoindexter said: Same here, however, what I am trying to figure out is if the truck will have any derated weight carrying capacities due to the fact that I am ordering it original with A/T tires. Like I mentioned, it looks like the GCVWR is 30K simply with the HCTT package, regardless of the tires, and the HCTT package will also result in a 10800 GVWR regardless of tires... at least that I can see mentioned anywhere. Are the towing capacities documented/stickered on the truck the same way the GVWR and the payload is? If not then I don't guess it matters... I just don't want it to derate the truck since I spent the extra money to upgrade both, the front and rear end to get the most rating available (considering it's diesel). I surely understand what you’re saying, and what you’re anxious over. I decided on the 7.3 engine early on, and spec’d both the camper package, and FX4 with the 4.30 rear end for the max load carrying capacity that I could get on our new truck. I studied the 2022 Super Duty trailer towing information at length in making those decisions. It looks like you’ve done the same, and I see the unknowns that there seem to be in that information guide. I’m not sure that we want to use that guide as our trailer towing bible, but it may be the best info we have until we have our new trucks. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chadstickpoindexter Posted July 3, 2021 Share Posted July 3, 2021 56 minutes ago, Mirage Flatter said: I surely understand what you’re saying, and what you’re anxious over. I decided on the 7.3 engine early on, and spec’d both the camper package, and FX4 with the 4.30 rear end for the max load carrying capacity that I could get on our new truck. I studied the 2022 Super Duty trailer towing information at length in making those decisions. It looks like you’ve done the same, and I see the unknowns that there seem to be in that information guide. I’m not sure that we want to use that guide as our trailer towing bible, but it may be the best info we have until we have our new trucks. Yeah, too bad there aren't a bunch of trucks just sitting on lots that we could just go and look at... Since I have ordered my truck on 5/24 there has been 2 SD's show up at the dealership. They are both pretty similar to my build, but they were Lariat Ultimates and had 20" Michelin A/S tires on them. Mine is simply an XLT, but had most of the options that were also on these Lariats, except the moonroof (which from what I have read is an additional 100 lb add on). But, they were both diesels with the HCTT package and the payloads on both are 2,798 lbs. The biggest difference was that mine also has the snow plow/camper package, but didn't have the moonroof, so I anticipate that my truck should actually be at or probably even a little over 2800 lbs! But again, these are with the 20" A/T tires and mine will have the 18" A/T tires. I don't know... I guess I'll just have to wait and see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Hood Posted July 4, 2021 Share Posted July 4, 2021 On 6/30/2021 at 4:32 PM, Nick1236 said: I will add that if you getting serious into camping and plan on ordering a large fifth wheel (anything over GVWR 15k) I would skip the F250 all together and immediately go F350 dually. even if you are within spec of the F250 you will wish you had the bigger truck for a trailer that size. You don't need a dually for anything over 15K, but I would recommend a F350 and long bed for any truck with a diesel motor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Hood Posted July 4, 2021 Share Posted July 4, 2021 On 6/23/2021 at 2:15 PM, chadstickpoindexter said: I understand that there are multiple ratings and they all just boil down to basically the lowest, but the examples I gave above show that the A/T tire have a higher load rating than the A/S tire (both 18's)... so I don't understand this... Especially after adding both the snow plow/camper package and the HCTT package to my 250, I would hope that simply because I chose the 18 A/T tires it isn't going to decrease the official numbers on *my* truck by 5000 lbs! I posted the load ratings for the 18 A/S and A/T tires above and the A/T tires have the higher rating by 225 lbs. Even if it were the other way around, how in the world would that drop the towing capacity by 5000 lbs? I added the HCTT to my truck so that I could get the higher GVWR (10800 vs 10000) and the higher GCWR (30000 vs 23500) and presumably the higher conventional tow rating (20000 vs 15000). What's interesting, on that towing guide, in order to get the 30000 GVWR it is noted that the HCTT package is required and then also bumps the GVWR up to 10800 lbs, but with no mention of which tires are required for these weights. I'm hoping that they just made a mistake on the "guide"... or maybe I am just not understanding it (which I accept is possible). What's also interesting is that on that same line (for the 3.31 rear end) under max weight carrying/distribution there is no weight indicated for 18" A/T tires... it only says 20000 and then indicates that this weight requires 18 A/S or 20 A/T tires... so with 18 A/T, what is the number then? There's not one listed. Why are you buying a F250 if you want the max ratings? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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