Ford spends more on R&D than any other company in the world

[Noah Harbinger]

Link

[kyle]

yet another reason why they need to overhaul their product development department.....

[RichardJensen]

The plus side to this, of course, is that Don LeClair said that this is their basic PD budget going forward.

 

Hopefully they clean house, and spend money more wisely going forward.

[ZanatWork]

I hope so...yeesh...nothing like having the biggest R&D budget, but trailing in several powertrain issues.

[Edstock]

Just what is "R&D"?

 

It would be good to have some itemization. Does it include the robotics for Oakville/Chicago, for example? Does it include costs of development of the Dagenham CGI diesel family? Jaguar aluminum chassis, A-M composite technology? Fuel cell costs?

 

If Ford can make a diesel that meets emissions without towing around a container of urine (OK, it's urea) like Mercedes' solution (pun intended), maybe they haven't been profligate, after all.

 

Even VW has had to pull the TDI from the market, while they search for their solution, which may or may not be liquid.

Edited October 5, 2006 by Edstock

[Bluecon]

Just what is "R&D"?

 

It would be good to have some itemization. Does it include the robotics for Oakville/Chicago, for example? Does it include costs of development of the Dagenham CGI diesel family? Jaguar aluminum chassis, A-M composite technology? Fuel cell costs?

 

If Ford can make a diesel that meets emissions without towing around a container of urine (OK, it's urea) like Mercedes' solution (pun intended), maybe they haven't been profligate, after all.

 

Even VW has had to pull the TDI from the market, while they search for their solution, which may or may not be liquid.

Honda has the diesels figured out.

[RichardJensen]

Honda has the diesels figured out.

No.

 

Honda has SMALL diesels figured out.

 

They are federalizing a 2.2L 4-cylinder that will be used in the Civic, Accord, and CRV.

 

Ford could probably get the 2.0L Duratorq 50-state legal, with only moderate decreases in performance. However it would be an engine that would only work in the Focus and Fusion/Milan, which would mean Ford would be spending money making a 50-state legal engine that would be installed in less than 100k vehicles (assuming about 350k Fusions and Focuses, and less than 30% availability for the diesel, which would carry a price premium). Maybe the Escape too, maybe for another 50k units.

 

Ford gets an emissions system in place that works on medium displacement engines as well, and suddenly you've got an investment that can be applied to the Focus, Fusion, Five Hundrd, Freestyle, Edge, Escape, Panthers, Explorer, F150, Expedition.

 

You tell me which is the better investment.

[RichardJensen]

It would be good to have some itemization. Does it include the robotics for Oakville/Chicago, for example? Does it include costs of development of the Dagenham CGI diesel family? Jaguar aluminum chassis, A-M composite technology? Fuel cell costs?

The short answer is "yes".

 

And companies are not required to break down R&D spending minutely.

 

Ford, for instance, invests heavily in pure research (nano-tech and whatnot), sustainability research (windmills at Dagenham, shipping containers at Romeo, quarry water cooling at Lima), climate modeling, and software development.

 

On the PD side, Ford brought CNG, E85, and H2ICE technology to market, as well as the arguably more drivable full hybrid Escape. They developed the particulate filter on the 6.4L Powerstroke, including the engine management that periodically vaporizes the soot. They work with the EPA on long lead stuff like the hydraulic hybrid thing.

 

Chiefly, where they have wasted resources, over the last decade, has been on North American product development. There, it is almost impossible to find two things that Ford did right from 1996 to 2004.

[Bluecon]

No.

 

Honda has SMALL diesels figured out.

 

They are federalizing a 2.2L 4-cylinder that will be used in the Civic, Accord, and CRV.

 

Ford could probably get the 2.0L Duratorq 50-state legal, with only moderate decreases in performance. However it would be an engine that would only work in the Focus and Fusion/Milan, which would mean Ford would be spending money making a 50-state legal engine that would be installed in less than 100k vehicles (assuming about 350k Fusions and Focuses, and less than 30% availability for the diesel, which would carry a price premium). Maybe the Escape too, maybe for another 50k units.

 

Ford gets an emissions system in place that works on medium displacement engines as well, and suddenly you've got an investment that can be applied to the Focus, Fusion, Five Hundrd, Freestyle, Edge, Escape, Panthers, Explorer, F150, Expedition.

 

You tell me which is the better investment.

Same old story. Honda has a diesel and Ford could but they are not going to because (insert excuse here).

[RichardJensen]

Same old story. Honda has a diesel and Ford could but they are not going to because (insert excuse here).

Actually, Honda doesn't "have" a diesel.

 

They will have one by 2009.

 

According to them.

[Bluecon]

"Honda Motor Co., Ltd., announced today it has developed a next-generation diesel engine that reduces exhaust gas emissions to a level equal to a petrol engine. Honda’s next-generation diesel engine employs a NOx catalytic converter that Honda calculates will enable sufficent reduction in NOx emissions to meet U.S. Tier II Bin 5 emissions requirements) when the new engine is launched in three years’ time. The catalytic converter features the world’s first system using the reductive reaction of ammonia generated within the catalytic converter to “detoxify†nitrogen oxide (NOx) by turning it into nitrogen (N2)."

 

http://www.autoindustry.co.uk/news/25-09-06_6

[RichardJensen]

2006 + 3 =

[Bluecon]

2006 + 3 =

What is your point?

Honda has developed the diesel.

They have a diesel that will meet the 50 states emmissions.

 

Ford will probably have their engineers design a Ford exactly the same diesel and pay Honda for the

rights to the diesel technology that Ford designed completely on their own. Or was that the Toyota hybrid?

[J-150]

What is your point?

Honda has developed the diesel.

They have a diesel that will meet the 50 states emmissions.

 

Ford will probably have their engineers design a Ford exactly the same diesel and pay Honda for the

rights to the diesel technology that Ford designed completely on their own. Or was that the Toyota hybrid?

 

 

in 2009 Ford wil have at least 2 that we know of..

 

Powerstroke

Lion

 

 

Both will probably be sold in greater quantity than the Honda diesel. The Honda will sell how many? 100k? Ford will sell how many Lions and Powerstrokes? 300K? 400k? I guess Ford is making the greater impact on diesels for North America

 

 

So does truthfully pointing out that Honda isnt so great make me blind? Or a Ford shill?

Edited October 5, 2006 by J-150

[David Johnson]

The size of the EUCD platform is nearly identical to that of the existing $1 billion Mazda6-based platform, called CD3. In 2002, Ford said CD3 would meet global packaging requirements and have the driving dynamics required of a global mid-sized platform.

 

Ford spends more on (redundant) R&D.

[igor]

Bluecon .. the only difference between Honda and Ford right now is that Honda announced their 3 year powerplant plans ..

 

Ford could very well reveal tomorrow that all their 08 cars and trucks will have a diesel options .. we do not know ... because Ford has been keeping it secret ..

 

The fact that GM and Honda has been trying to score media points by boasting TODAY, about plans that are YEARS away, does not change that that technology/products are still YEARS AWAY .... Ford has been much more conservative with their announcements since the Hybrid inconvenience... and so there is no telling how far along the diesel development they are ..

 

A lot can happen in 3 years .. by your logic, GM is beating Ford because they HAVE Camaro?? I do not think so.

 

Igor

Edited October 5, 2006 by igor

[kyle]

Bluecon .. the only difference between Honda and Ford right now is that Honda announced their 3 year powerplant plans ..

 

Ford could very well reveal tomorrow that all their 08 cars and trucks will have a diesel options .. we do not know ... because Ford has been keeping it secret ..

 

The fact that GM and Honda has been trying to score media points by boasting TODAY, about plans that are YEARS away, does not change that that technology/products are still YEARS AWAY .... Ford has been much more conservative with their announcements since the Hybrid inconvenience... and so there is no telling how far along the diesel development they are ..

 

A lot can happen in 3 years .. by your logic, GM is beating Ford because they HAVE Camaro?? I do not think so.

 

Igor

 

 

You are right Igor, alot can happen in three years. But Honda has been an undisputed leader in small car technology and they have developed technology that no one has....I think the whole industry will be making diesels for small/medium size vehicles within the next 5 years.

 

I think both GM and Ford have been cautious in their outlook with diesels due to the negative (unwarranted in today's market) perception. Chrsler's is more open to it due to them being owned by mercedes-a leader in diesel technology. Honda does not have that baggage either and thus don't fear being a leader in the market.

[DCK]

If only they invested In product development......the explorer, expedition and the upcoming escape are laughable.

[Mark B. Morrow]

If only they invested In product development......the explorer, expedition and the upcoming escape are laughable.

 

Nonsense. Explorer will still outsell all of its competition, Expedition is at least an even match for the Tahoe/Suburban and much more user friendly and Escape is the best seller in its class. How exactly is being the best seller or class leader laughable?

[Biker16]

No.

 

Honda has SMALL diesels figured out.

 

They are federalizing a 2.2L 4-cylinder that will be used in the Civic, Accord, and CRV.

 

Ford could probably get the 2.0L Duratorq 50-state legal, with only moderate decreases in performance. However it would be an engine that would only work in the Focus and Fusion/Milan, which would mean Ford would be spending money making a 50-state legal engine that would be installed in less than 100k vehicles (assuming about 350k Fusions and Focuses, and less than 30% availability for the diesel, which would carry a price premium). Maybe the Escape too, maybe for another 50k units.

Ranger, Edge, transit, thats is a alot of volume.

Don't wait for the silver bullet. 100k engine is enough to secure space at an existing plant for US production.

 

The Duarteq 2.2 is also available.

[toyboxrv]

What is your point?

Honda has developed the diesel.

They have a diesel that will meet the 50 states emmissions.

 

Ford will probably have their engineers design a Ford exactly the same diesel and pay Honda for the

rights to the diesel technology that Ford designed completely on their own. Or was that the Toyota hybrid?

 

Honda hasn't developed a diesel that can do anymore than what Ford is doing with their own diesels now. The only thing they have is a convertor that can produce on it's own the necessary elements to reduce NOx emissions, at least that's what they say they have or rather will have in 3 years.

 

If it takes a warmup time for the convertor to generate enough heat to create the necessary reaction, they may have a problem getting it to meet the federal standards during warmup or they can use a tank to inject urea until it does reach operating temperature. A diesel doesn't have the quick rise in exhaust temps that a gas engine does. I have a hard time getting an EGT of 500 degrees on the freeway, when a gas engine will reach over 600 before the end of the street.

 

If it were such a given, they why is it going to take 3 years for something that Honda says works now?

[RichardJensen]

Ranger, Edge, transit, thats is a alot of volume.

Don't wait for the silver bullet. 100k engine is enough to secure space at an existing plant for US production.

 

The Duarteq 2.2 is also available.

It's just a half-measure. It can't be applied to the vehicles where a diesel would be a MAMMOTH selling advantage, where it would generate the most profit.

 

The Transit, if sold here, would sell in marginal volumes unless the E-Series were pulled, and the Duratorq 2.0 is insufficient for the Edge.

[Biker16]

It's just a half-measure. It can't be applied to the vehicles where a diesel would be a MAMMOTH selling advantage, where it would generate the most profit.

 

The Transit, if sold here, would sell in marginal volumes unless the E-Series were pulled, and the Duratorq 2.0 is insufficient for the Edge.

"It can't be applied to the vehicles where a diesel would be a MAMMOTH selling advantage" we not looking to turn the Us into europe, we are looking to carve out a profitable niche For ford cars, not double volume, we just want to increase sales. If we could simply sale 100,000 Diesel I4 cars we would be successful. you sai yourself it shouldn't take much to make the Duratorq I4 meet US regs, why would we wait to offer these engines here? we have flexible engine plants in Dearborn, cleveland, and lima they could add Diesel production to those lines, to Test the demand, of course after detailed market analasis. By your logic we would not have a Ford hybrid vehicle, because they would not be a " MAMMOTH selling advantage".

Take smaller bites.

 

Don't lecture on half measures.

 

As Ford's #1 apologist, you know half meaures are what we got for the next 3-4 years. We have had Not 1 not 2 but 3 restructuring plans in the last 5 years. and everyone of those plans you have agreed with, even those which have obivously failed. you defended the 500's bland styling but you say the New mondeo is not polarizing enough For this market. You don't like risk you would prefer a Sure thing, than to bet the company on the talented people inside of the glass house.

 

If those (transit) marginal volumes made money would it worth the investment?

Edited October 7, 2006 by Biker16

[bystander]

Actually, Honda doesn't "have" a diesel.

 

They will have one by 2009.

 

According to them.

 

If you listen real closely, you can actually hear Honda tell Detroit how they're going to beat the pants off of them in 3 years. Its like a football team announcing which play they are getting ready to run to the other team. Several months ago, there was an article in one of the automotive industry magazines talking about Honda's next generation hybrids being something like half as costly to build as their current ones. Now, it sounds as if they are leveraging their powertrain expertise to bring high efficiency diesels to the North American car market. I can't wait to hear Ford and GM excuses in a few years when Honda (and Toyota, which is also working on 2nd generation hybrids that are much less costly to manufacture) are once again in the right place at the right time with the right products while Detroit fiddles.

[RichardJensen]

As Ford's #1 apologist, you know half meaures are what we got for the next 3-4 years. We have had Not 1 not 2 but 3 restructuring plans in the last 5 years.

As Ford's #1 apologist, I'm also aware that Ford has not cut R&D spending over the past five years.

 

I have also adjusted my opinion on the Five Hundred's styling, based on the performance of the Fusion in the same approximate market (what was it Keynes said? "When I get new information, I adjust my opinion: What, sir, do you do with new information"). In a great many respects the Five Hundred is the better vehicle, and it certainly has a more cohesive design. However......... Not that I'll be soon advocating the cartoonish styling of the LXs on mainstream vehicles.

 

Also, with Diesel, it has to make sense financially: Ford invests in technologies (aggressive EGR and PM filtering which rob power) and gets a Duratorq that is the engineering equivalent of those 400cid engines in the 70s that made 150hp, and yeah, they can sell some, in a few applications, but they'll be uncompetitive (likely) with Honda motors. It would not generate a sufficient return, it would not add sufficient value to the vehicle being sold.

 

BTW, Bystander: Toyota is on its 2nd gen. Hybrid already. They've quietly pulled the 400h from the market stateside, and Ford will have their 2nd gen "powerpack" hybrid on the market in 2008.