Coming to a fairground near you!

[Stray Kat]

Ok well I'm gonna beat the dead horse again and I ain't gonna stop till we see change. Yeah I'm talking 'bout the sorry state of affairs when it comes to the incredible level of defilement that early and classic Fords suffer at the hands of the average streetrodder. Oh don't get me wrong I could'nt hold a candle to most of the talent that they exhibit. Furthermore I absolutely don't have any desire to knock any other brand of automobile. What I am trying to get accross is my frustration with this whole American sub-culture that feels it necessary to equip the most desireable and most classic and beautiful Ford autos ever produced with major components (like the whole damn driveline) with stuff produced by Ford's fiercest rivals.

 

Are there any individuals either in the Ford family or working in positions at Ford that even care enough to make a serious effort to change this sorry phenomenon??? Oh you say talk is cheap and you wanna know what I've done to effect a change in this arena? Well in my little world I've had the privilage to be able to assist a number of early Ford builders willing to break tradition and actually install a Ford engine in a Ford automobile. Further I designed and built a front cover integeral oil pump for small block Fords to help ease some of the problems that a front mounted oil pump causes in some early Ford chassis. I contacted and visited FRPP a number of times to either get their interest in producing my solution or to inspire them to consider their own solutions but to no avail. It was my belief at that naieve time that if we took away the excuses that the would be Chevy installer continuously trumpets as the overwhelming reasons for his bad habits we could effect change (in other words make it easier to install Ford engines!). I have come to learn that I was wrong and that the GM engine into Ford car is more nasty tradition than anything else, evidence the new GM engines (LS1 series which pose increasing engine swap difficulties) more widespread use in the Ford chassis.

 

I totally don't have any faith that this even bothers many people in the Ford family or other individuals, which is too bad. I actually look at this as an affront to the Ford Motor Company's reputation and heritage. The reality is that Ford Motor Company is about to acknowledge and reward individuals who have participated in the practice of dismissing Ford powerplant engineering and instead sort of promoted the engineering and accomplishments of rival auto manufacturers. I'm speaking of the big 75th anniversary of the holy grail of hot rodding, the 1932 Ford aka the "Deuce" This will include a special presentation of the 75 most "influential" `32's at this years renowned LA Roadster show. Ford is actually going to have on display many Ford vehicles which IMO do more to promote the "hemi" and sbc and what have you than any Ford product I can currently think of. The reason I say this is because in the mind of any hotrodder the engine is the "heart" of the vehicle. Always has been, always will be. I would take a hard line and only include the milestone `32 Fords which the builder has stayed the course and stuck with genuine Ford major parts.

 

Gotta run, but later I'll be happy to elaborate till you're sick of me. Just wish some bigwig at Ford happened to browse this sight and take an interest in this thread. Wishful thinking.

 

A couple pictures for your viewing pleasure.........

 

A link to the story a milestone Deuce that Ford Motor Company can be proud of! Check it out.

 

 

http://www.so-calspeedshop.com/projectcars...anespencer.html

Edited October 14, 2006 by Stray Kat

[Stray Kat]

Not a word huh?

[Stray Kat]

Naw, naw, nawww! I'm not gonna drop it. Check the link for an example to which I speak.

 

 

http://www.hotrodders.com/vehicles/05.html

[RichardJensen]

I know what you're talking about, but it seems Quixotic to fight it.

[01FOCI]

Yes its out of control, those rodders. I have heard of people putting small block chevys in classic Mercedes. What a joke! If you cannot afford or understand Mercedes parts you should not be driving one.

[retro-man]

Sad. My sister's father-in-law - wonderful guy - has a '32 Ford with a 350 and cadillac steering. And an automatic transmission. I never did get that.

 

And that '40 Ford is criminal. My dad's first car was a black '40 Ford coupe, with a flathead V8, "smitties" (glass packs), and baby-moon hubcaps.

[Sizzler]

Simple answer is that the SBC is very close to the actual physical size of the original Ford flathead V8 found in cars such as the 32 ford.

 

Yes, you can squeeze in other engines, but by far the easiest swap for more power is the SBC.

 

Just think about the agony of fitting something like a modular V8 in there? :titanic:

[IMSA-XJR9]

Simple answer is that the SBC is very close to the actual physical size of the original Ford flathead V8 found in cars such as the 32 ford.

 

Yes, you can squeeze in other engines, but by far the easiest swap for more power is the SBC.

 

Just think about the agony of fitting something like a modular V8 in there? :titanic:

 

But a Mod looks so good!! (But I understand fitment issues.)

 

http://www.mach1registry.org/forums/showthread.php?t=52346

 

[156n3rd]

If you look at some of the production totals throughout the 1930's and 40's, you'll see that many of those cars were built. The most desirable of course are the low production body styles. There were millions of cars of all brands and varieties built during the '30's especially so making some inot hot rods is another way to keep them around.

[marc-o]

I know it won't change a damn thing,but I agree.

 

I think old classics should be kept original, or at least tastefully done. Just one of those things I really don't "get".

 

Same thing for modern cars... I'm so sick of hearing people talking about putting 305 in a Miata... :blah:

[Ovaltine]

Are there any individuals either in the Ford family or working in positions at Ford that even care enough to make a serious effort to change this sorry phenomenon???

This is one of those types of questions where the answer is: "It's America, baby". As much as I can appreciate a classic vehicle that has a same-brand motor, everyone needs to remember that Americans are a unique people, who like to have unique choices. Enough of our basic freedoms are being eroded, that I don't think that someone as independent minded as a streetrodder is going to be too open to having someone chastise their choice of powertrain.

 

In the 'effort' you describe above, what do you suggest that Ford "people" do in response? Kidnap a possible offender's vehicle? Threaten them with bodily harm? (Those were jokes). Jawboning someone too aggressively about their choice of a powerplant might at worst cost you a friend, or at the least make you an annoyance to others.

 

About the use of the all-purpose, easily part obtainable Chevy 350 for street rods, I have this to say. Back in high school I watched Chevy's with stock 350's (headers and glass packs as the only modification) eat Fords (with 351's sporting MUCHO speed modifications) for lunch. The 350 (from my observation) was the better and more easily and cheaper powertrain to coax speed from.

 

So... for that concept to creep into street rodding is strange or wrong because.........?

 

I respect your opinion, but it's one of those "no-win" kind of deals, IMHO.

 

-Ovaltine

[retro-man]

This is one of those types of questions where the answer is: "It's America, baby". As much as I can appreciate a classic vehicle that has a same-brand motor, everyone needs to remember that Americans are a unique people, who like to have unique choices. Enough of our basic freedoms are being eroded, that I don't think that someone as independent minded as a streetrodder is going to be too open to having someone chastise their choice of powertrain.

 

In the 'effort' you describe above, what do you suggest that Ford "people" do in response? Kidnap a possible offender's vehicle? Threaten them with bodily harm? (Those were jokes). Jawboning someone too aggressively about their choice of a powerplant might at worst cost you a friend, or at the least make you an annoyance to others.

 

About the use of the all-purpose, easily part obtainable Chevy 350 for street rods, I have this to say. Back in high school I watched Chevy's with stock 350's (headers and glass packs as the only modification) eat Fords (with 351's sporting MUCHO speed modifications) for lunch. The 350 (from my observation) was the better and more easily and cheaper powertrain to coax speed from.

 

So... for that concept to creep into street rodding is strange or wrong because.........?

 

I respect your opinion, but it's one of those "no-win" kind of deals, IMHO.

 

-Ovaltine

Another personal thing: The worst POS car I ever owned was a '70 Pontiac LeMans with a 350 engine in it (which ate up its plastic - that's right, plastic - (ok, nylon - same diff) timing chain gear at 64,000 mi., despite my driving it like a granny). Do these rodders have some special technique for turning what was in my experience an execrable lump of turd into a respectable motor?

Edited October 14, 2006 by retro-man

[Hellcat_F6F]

Another personal thing: The worst POS car I ever owned was a '70 Pontiac LeMans with a 350 engine in it (which ate up its plastic - that's right, plastic - (ok, nylon - same diff) timing chain gear at 64,000 mi., despite my driving it like a granny). Do these rodders have some special technique for turning what was in my experience an execrable lump of turd into a respectable motor?

 

That (unless the engine had been changed) was a Pontiac 350, completely different from a SBC. I had a Pontiac 301 do the same thing.

[Stray Kat]

In the 'effort' you describe above, what do you suggest that Ford "people" do in response? Kidnap a possible offender's vehicle? Threaten them with bodily harm? (Those were jokes). Jawboning someone too aggressively about their choice of a powerplant might at worst cost you a friend, or at the least make you an annoyance to others.

 

 

-Ovaltine

 

 

 

Kidnap? Threaten? No not at all. What I would like to see is some more effort by Ford and people that work for and represent Ford into preserving what un- tainted heritage there is left. I would say the best way to foster change would be to create desireability for Ford product. Ford IMO has left way way too much of their rich heritage on the table. They need to reaffirm themselves as the enthusiasts first choice much like they were in the days when the Flathead V8 was king. I suggest that most of the hardware already exists in order to make Ford Powertrain #1 in this arena. What little is missing I estimate would be a realatively small monetary investment. Probably less than the cost of what it takes to groom a young driver in Ford's driver development program, which by the way usually ends up with the little bastards running off to GM, Dodge or Toyota when they wave the money. Ford needs to listen to the needs of street rodders, put the correct pieces into an affordable price range and market them as a unique brand just for them. Ohh something like maybe Total Performance, Competition Proven or Thunderbird Powered. Something along those lines. How about a Q & A website with real information and timely updates. You buy a FRPP engine you get a couple perks like a jacket and a subscription to a Ford Rodders shop tips type magazine. Man the possibilities are endless and don't seem all that expensive to do. At least Ford will have the pride of trying to fight back not just conceding like they seem to be now.

[Mark B. Morrow]

I agree that SBC motors don't belong in Ford bodies. The reason they are so common is really one of historic happenstance. When the small block Chevy engine was introduced in '55, hot rodders didn't have much choice in V-8's. The Ford Y-Block was too big and heavy as were the original HEMIs. Swaps of other V-8s such as Olds, Buick and Studebaker, were possible but not common. The choices were for the most part Flatheads or the SBC. When the aftermarket embraced the SBC by offering a huge array of speed parts the chioce became that much easier. Ford didn't offer irs own small block until the 221 in the '62 Fairlane. The 221 later became the 260, then 289 and 302.

 

Most of the hot rods built in the late '50s were SBC powered since the engines were readily available and could be built up and fitted to the Ford cars with ease.

 

By '62 old style hot rods based on Model As and 1930's Fords were giving way to to '50s and '60s cars. By '64, when the 289 was available, Musclecars and Ponycars were available at relatively cheap prices.

 

That said, There is no reason to build a Ford rod with a Chevy engine today. The 302/5.0 engine is plentiful and can be built to put out over 400 hp.

[napoleon]

That said, There is no reason to build a Ford rod with a Chevy engine today. The 302/5.0 engine is plentiful and can be built to put out over 400 hp.

 

 

A LS2 will do that without doing any work to it, besides being all aluminum and not splitting down the center when you put serious power to it. The last time I watched overhaulin or maybe american hotrod they put an LS something into a car and with the basics (cam, heads etc) was putting down 600hp n/a.

 

The thing that kills me is that it costs around $45,000 for a crate GT engine but you can buy a Z06 engine for around $15k with some very exotic internals. They may not be blower friendly but a shot of some nitrous and those damn engines scream.

 

I wouldnt put anything Gm into anything Ford or even drive a Gm for that matter, but you cant argue with the cheap horsepower coming from the LSx engines. On the street an LS1 with ANY kind of nitrous hooked up to it is pretty much the all feared combination. Terminators are the same but are way more expensive to buy into initially and arent as common as an f body.

 

And once the newer piece of shit LS1 camaros inevitably end up in scrap yards the engines and transmissions will more than likely find homes in just about every kind of car EXCEPT a Gm.

 

So far Ive seen LS1's in a mark VII, rx7, mercedes c230, mustang, ranger, and countless hot rods.

 

 

For a time 5.0's were finding their ways between the fenders of different makes of cars because they were dirt cheap, easy to get running with the factory engine harness and made good power, and dimensionally compact but the trend has shifted back to Gm for that not so much in hotrods but in peoples daily driven street cars. It creeps me out to know that the new Ls1 exhaust ports fit up to factory 5.0 headers, it just makes it all that easier.

[Stray Kat]

A LS2 will do that without doing any work to it, besides being all aluminum and not splitting down the center when you put serious power to it. The last time I watched overhaulin or maybe american hotrod they put an LS something into a car and with the basics (cam, heads etc) was putting down 600hp n/a.

 

The thing that kills me is that it costs around $45,000 for a crate GT engine but you can buy a Z06 engine for around $15k with some very exotic internals. They may not be blower friendly but a shot of some nitrous and those damn engines scream.

 

I wouldnt put anything Gm into anything Ford or even drive a Gm for that matter, but you cant argue with the cheap horsepower coming from the LSx engines. On the street an LS1 with ANY kind of nitrous hooked up to it is pretty much the all feared combination. Terminators are the same but are way more expensive to buy into initially and arent as common as an f body.

 

And once the newer piece of shit LS1 camaros inevitably end up in scrap yards the engines and transmissions will more than likely find homes in just about every kind of car EXCEPT a Gm.

 

So far Ive seen LS1's in a mark VII, rx7, mercedes c230, mustang, ranger, and countless hot rods.

For a time 5.0's were finding their ways between the fenders of different makes of cars because they were dirt cheap, easy to get running with the factory engine harness and made good power, and dimensionally compact but the trend has shifted back to Gm for that not so much in hotrods but in peoples daily driven street cars. It creeps me out to know that the new Ls1 exhaust ports fit up to factory 5.0 headers, it just makes it all that easier.

 

 

 

 

O K the LSx GM engines are good. Never said they were'nt, nor did I knock the original sbc. Not my purpose here. I have to tell you though the GM LSx engines are not that great a fit in early Ford engine compartments. They appear to be very compact in height and width but are also quite long. This fact requires surgery to get them in there. These are antique vehicles with marketly different underhood dimensions compared to more modern vehicles. Yet you're correct they are showing up in a variety of vehicles. All the more reason I think it would be good for Ford to step up their efforts to get their stuff in order. It is uncanny that it seems twice GM has configured their engines to the same package size as the hot Ford powerplant that preceded them. In the mid- `50's the sbc bore a striking resemblence to the cornerstone of hot rodding the Flathead Ford V8 at least in terms of size and weight targets, not to mention block profiles. Then in the `90's we get the LS engines which are very similar to small block Ford engines in even more ways. Did the GM engineers take note of what a great little package the modern 5.0 Fords were and that they were very much over- achievers? Who knows but it is food for thought. BTW the Modulars are actualy a good fit and can have an impressive underhood presence. Check it out.

Edited October 16, 2006 by Stray Kat

[napoleon]

O K the LSx GM engines are good. Never said they were'nt, nor did I knock the original sbc. Not my purpose here. I have to tell you though the GM LSx engines are not that great a fit in early Ford engine compartments. They appear to be very compact in height and width but are also quite long. This fact requires surgery to get them in there. These are antique vehicles with marketly different underhood dimensions compared to more modern vehicles. Yet you're correct they are showing up in a variety of vehicles. All the more reason I think it would be good for Ford to step up their efforts to get their stuff in order. It is uncanny that it seems twice GM has configured their engines to the same package size as the hot Ford powerplant that preceded them. In the mid- `50's the sbc bore a striking resemblence to the cornerstone of hot rodding the Flathead Ford V8 at least in terms of size and weight targets, not to mention block profiles. Then in the `90's we get the LS engines which are very similar to small block Ford engines in even more ways. Did the GM engineers take note of what a great little package the modern 5.0 Fords were and that they were very much over- achievers? Who knows but it is food for thought. BTW the Modulars are actualy a good fit and can have an impressive underhood presence. Check it out.

 

Ive seen some of the mod motor swaps into fox bodies and they are a decent fit, I wouldnt say good, atleast the 4 valves swaps, I never seen anyone bother with the 2 valves, and Im not even thinking of the 5.4. Course one of the great things with the fox bodied cars is that you can fit just about anything under the hood of one of those, but the mods I have seen still took some cutting and fabbing.

 

Agreed, after seeing 15+ year old ford headers match up to the LS1 I cant help but think some notes were taken from the 5.0.

 

I know the LS motors are longer but most of the cars I have seen them go into didnt have so much an issue of length as they did in width, I did a set of headers on a cobra and let me tell you I wont be doing it again, of course I wont be doing spark plugs on an f body anytime soon either but its just tough working around such a wide engine, that and the fact that you can get so many cubes out of the relatively small LS engines, cubic inches = free horsepower.

 

I am absolutely dying to see the hurricane engines hit the showrooms and the FRPP catalog. I really feel the scales will tip toward Ford powerplants once there is an overhead cam engine that can support some cubic inches, and it would also be nice if ford quit changing the F***ing bellhousing bolt pattern (Bonus to the LS1 for having the same tranny pattern for 50 years). Thats also the kinda changing stupid shit that pisses off hotrodders and keeps em sticking to Gm engines. It would be nice to see it about as wide as a 3 valve 4.6 but around 6.2 liters

[ebritt]

Another personal thing: The worst POS car I ever owned was a '70 Pontiac LeMans with a 350 engine in it (which ate up its plastic - that's right, plastic - (ok, nylon - same diff) timing chain gear at 64,000 mi., despite my driving it like a granny). Do these rodders have some special technique for turning what was in my experience an execrable lump of turd into a respectable motor?

Had a 76 Olds Cutlass with 350, it ate the plastic gears too!

[bifs66]

Simple answer is that the SBC is very close to the actual physical size of the original Ford flathead V8 found in cars such as the 32 ford.

 

Yes, you can squeeze in other engines, but by far the easiest swap for more power is the SBC.

 

Just think about the agony of fitting something like a modular V8 in there? :titanic:

 

The rods built in the 50s/60s typically used the SBC for all the reasons previously stated. However, with the advent of the 5.0 era (80s -up), there is little reason to ruin an old Ford with the typical SBC . Firstly, the modern SBF can be built to produce all the power one could use in a street rod, and do it for a reasonable amount of money. Secondly, the SBF is significantly narrower and lighter than any classic SBC. In fact, Ford produced a "short" nosed water pump to reduce the overall length of the SBF, just for street rods. The distributor location is a plus too. In recent years, many newly-constructed Ford rods are being bulit with SBF powerplants; and I've see quite a few turn up during the last couple of cruising seasons. Like some others have stated, it is a real turn off to any "real" Ford enthusiast to see an old Ford butchered with a SBC (or any other GM engine). Unfortunately, the GM oriented mags/rags (Hot Rod, Popular Hotrodding, etc) are pushing all they can to promote the LS engine series; fortunately, I haven't seen any show up at local cruises yet (have seen a Mod powered T-bucket).

If anybody claims that the SBC can't be beat for power, just review the most recent Popular Hotrodding Engine Masters Challenge (Nov 06). All the top winning engines were SBFs, with one big block Pontiac (built by one of the best engine builders in the country) coming in second. The competitors included BBCs; but I saw no mention of any SBCs being competitive.

Personally, I really prefer Ford Flatheads in the old Ford rods. They make an impressive visual display with all those chromed nuts holding down the finned aluminum heads!

[RichardJensen]

Personally, I really prefer Ford Flatheads in the old Ford rods.

There's a real purist.

[Stray Kat]

So gentlemen what are we to do? Does Ford's past mean enough? Is this subject relavent now in these most tumultuant times?

 

I believe this is imperetive. Why? Because Ford's past products and achievements are something to be proud of. Bedrock to stand on into the stormy future. People, current and future Ford customers see this practice and must wonder why so many auto enthusiasts don't trust Ford to provide the motive force for thier special vehicle. I challenge anyone who may notice this thread within Ford to ask themselves why this is and what must be done about it. Please I know for sure that a difference can be made if the powers that be engage in changing this situation.

[RichardJensen]

So gentlemen what are we to do? Does Ford's past mean enough? Is this subject relavent now in these most tumultuant times?

 

I believe this is imperetive. Why? Because Ford's past products and achievements are something to be proud of. Bedrock to stand on into the stormy future. People, current and future Ford customers see this practice and must wonder why so many auto enthusiasts don't trust Ford to provide the motive force for thier special vehicle. I challenge anyone who may notice this thread within Ford to ask themselves why this is and what must be done about it. Please I know for sure that a difference can be made if the powers that be engage in changing this situation.

Well, Ford could hire John Mellencamp to write a song called, "Our car, our engine".

 

 

(sorry, someone had to laugh at that, and I figure it'd have to be me).

 

But seriously, I think Ford needs to get that blue oval out everywhere. And that includes co-opting Chevy powered hotrods. Remind people that it sure as heck ain't the motor that makes those things cool. It's the style. For that, the decision to sponsor the 75 most influential Ford hotrods, regardless of current engine, is good politics: remind people--even SBC fans, that these are "FORDS".

 

Then you make a point of showcasing Ford/Ford products at decent sized shows (don't know where you'd draw the line).

 

Finally, as Stray Kat suggests, you do aftermarket kits that are friendly to the hotrod market.

 

You should do all three things, but I think the first, best, step is to remind everyone that these are Fords.

 

For instance, most of these vehicles have extensively altered sheetmetal, frames, interiors, etc. Even if the engine isn't a SBC, most of the parts are probably aftermarket anyway. The actual products on the car that are purchased from Ford are negligible in most instances, and the car itself hasn't given a dime in revenue to Ford since--gee--the Hoover presidency.

 

So what you do is remind everyone that this is a "FORD". Make a big deal about it. Get out in front of it. Sure the people that know, and do not like Ford will fill up databases around the internet with rants about how so-and-so's '37 isn't a Ford, 'cause it's got and SBC and a hydramatic, and totally different sheetmetal, etc.

 

But they'll just look like sore losers.

[Edstock]

"Well, Ford could hire John Mellencamp to write a song called, "Our car, our engine"."

 

Wait for the follow-up single, "Little Blue Ovals". -_-

 

The biggest thing Ford can do about the past is fix the future. IMHO, Ford needs to develop and release for sale, an extensive selection of go-fast parts for the 3.5 and 2.3, plus AWD chassis components.

 

That way, someone can buy an old Focus hatch and build a 300hp AWD street rod. Somebody can get a used FWD Fusion and make an AWD 450 hp supercharged or turbo build-up.

 

When future Fords are hot powerplants, then newbies to the retro-rod world will have a propensity to keep it all Ford.

 

Then, there'll be little Blue Ovals for you and me — in the winner's circle.

[coupe3w]

It's easy. Do what I did. Toss out the chevy and put a Ford in it. :happy feet:

 

Coupe3w