Done With Owning Anymore UAW or Unifor Built Vehicles

[Len_A]

Well, they walked. Shawn Fain is leading them all to disaster, and I say that as someone vehemently prounion and pro Detroit Three (ain't big any more). They have to accept the fact that they don't have the market share that's big enough to really give the union any real strength.

 

And they have to accept, and I mean they have to accept, that the Detroit Three aren't the Big Three anymore, and combined, their market share, especially considering that three three auto makers only sell 42%, isn't even close to what it used to be. I, for one, now own my last union built car. My ex-salaried Ford manager brother, owns a Volvo, as does one of his best friends, even though they have employee discount for life. We're done. Yes, they gave up a lot. Tough. It's now a major part of the business model, the Detroit Three lost market share, y'all make more than any of the transplants, or Tesla, that's life, f***ing get over it. And I am vehemently prounion. Just about every nonmanufacturing union worker - health, education, etc - are aghast at Shawn Fain's conduct, riling up the rank-and-file, and making demands that many nonmanufacturing union employee think are ridiculous. And now, Fain and his merry band of idiiots, are riling up the union haters. Way to go. I know of two HVAC contractors, whose employee are union, because they have to be to get business in Detroit, that cancelled their truck orders of F-150 and Silverado's, and ordered Toyota and Nissan trucks instead. They're that pissed off. 

[akirby]

“What their initial offer was, is to pay our hourly workers about $300,000 each, and to work four days," Farley said on Thursday of the UAW's demands. "That would basically put our company out of business."

 

Although Fain acknowledged that the automakers had upped their wage offers, the proposals remain inadequate, he said. Ford has offered 20% over 4.5 years, while GM and Stellantis offered 18% and 17.5% over four years, respectively. 

[akirby]

The workers should ignore the strike order.  What is the process to oust the president?

[Len_A]

3 hours ago, akirby said:

The workers should ignore the strike order.  What is the process to oust the president?

Will never happen. The ramifications of this bullshit move can not be under estimated. Those workers who voted for that idiot Fain, can thank each other for driving everyone over a cliff. Scares the hell out me. I can't retire, and at 64, trying to find another industrial sales gig scares the crap out of me. And being the adult child of an hourly (now deceased) Ford employee, I've had, four times in my career, had to deal with a coworkers or managers bigotry toward the hourly UAW employees, and don't think their very adult children should be in any white collar business career, unless it's a supervisors position. My late father's narrowminded reaction was two fold - "do I have to watch every g*d damn thing I say?" (yes, you f*cking do) and secondly, "can't you get another job?" (I don't want to - I'm really god at what I do). Because the way they think. When I pointed out, to several of my dad's hourly coworkers, that their behavior is an incredibly bad look, (just like this strike and Fain's behavior and theatrics are), their very typical response is that it's not their problem and sales & marketing need to deal with it. It's an infuriating attitude, and this strike is just an extension of that.

[92merc]

I know nothing about UAW, other than what I read here.  But I saw a recent article about former CEO Fields comments.  In a nutshell, Fields said UAW could win the battle by getting big pay raises.  But in the end lose the war because the US 3 car makers won't be able to compete on a global scale for wages.  That would mean either all production for Ford going overseas, or they would go out of business entirely. 

 

I would generally agree with that overall assessment.

[akirby]

55 minutes ago, 92merc said:

I know nothing about UAW, other than what I read here.  But I saw a recent article about former CEO Fields comments.  In a nutshell, Fields said UAW could win the battle by getting big pay raises.  But in the end lose the war because the US 3 car makers won't be able to compete on a global scale for wages.  That would mean either all production for Ford going overseas, or they would go out of business entirely. 

 

I would generally agree with that overall assessment.

My guess is there are enough smart people in the union to eventually tell this guy to accept the offer or take a hike.  Maybe the NLRB will assist. This position is unwinnable.

[fuzzymoomoo]

Y’all believe the media too much. That’s the only comment I’m going to make until this is settled. 
 

 

Edited September 15, 2023 by fuzzymoomoo

[twintornados]

7 hours ago, akirby said:

The workers should ignore the strike order.  What is the process to oust the president?

 

The rank and file membership voted FOR a strike....why would they ignore it?

 

However, with that said, the "final offer" should go out for a ratification vote. If it gets voted down, THEN start your strike action.

Edited September 15, 2023 by twintornados

[akirby]

14 minutes ago, twintornados said:

 

The rank and file membership voted FOR a strike....why would they ignore it?

 

However, with that said, the "final offer" should go out for a ratification vote. If it gets voted down, THEN start your strike action.

They voted to authorize a strike before the final offer was known.

[Len_A]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

They voted to authorize a strike before the final offer was known.

Every worker has a right to be pissed about CEO pay, but if they want to bitch about it, go bitch at the shareholders who approve these ridiculous compensation packages. And who are some of the biggest shareholders? Other union pension funds. You read that right - "Solidarity Forever" my ass. The California State Teachers’ Retirement System. The Teacher Retirement System of Texas. New York State Common Retirement Fund. Teamsters Pension Trust Fund . The Teamsters Central States Pensions The UAW's own VEBA. Every one of them always vote with the CEO's. And whether anyone believes it or not, each union has some degree of influence. Not one f*cking one ever votes against CEO compensation. Every single large share holder vote is a matter of public record. 

Don't like CEO compensation? Tell some of the biggest shareholders to do something about it. 

[twintornados]

3 hours ago, akirby said:

They voted to authorize a strike before the final offer was known.

 

Apparently, you do not understand how a strike vote works

[akirby]

1 hour ago, twintornados said:

 

Apparently, you do not understand how a strike vote works

The strike vote was 3 weeks ago on Aug 25.  How does that conflict with my point that the authorization was given before these latest offers were even on the table.

[twintornados]

5 minutes ago, akirby said:

The strike vote was 3 weeks ago on Aug 25.  How does that conflict with my point that the authorization was given before these latest offers were even on the table.

 

The strike vote is a vital tool that the rank and file gives to their negotiation team to call a strike if the negotiations tank. Now, again, as I have said before, the "final offer" should be presented to the rank and file and if the rank and file rejects it, it will give the negotiation team more bite at the table. But, admittedly, I do not know the what the minimum "floor" at the table would be to actually bring back to said rank and file.

[akirby]

3 hours ago, Len_A said:

Every worker has a right to be pissed about CEO pay, but if they want to bitch about it, go bitch at the shareholders who approve these ridiculous compensation packages. And who are some of the biggest shareholders? Other union pension funds. You read that right - "Solidarity Forever" my ass. The California State Teachers’ Retirement System. The Teacher Retirement System of Texas. New York State Common Retirement Fund. Teamsters Pension Trust Fund . The Teamsters Central States Pensions The UAW's own VEBA. Every one of them always vote with the CEO's. And whether anyone believes it or not, each union has some degree of influence. Not one f*cking one ever votes against CEO compensation. Every single large share holder vote is a matter of public record. 

Don't like CEO compensation? Tell some of the biggest shareholders to do something about it. 

Every job has its own qualifications and pay scale.  Of course CEO pay is ridiculous but to be a CEO you need decades of business experience and performance none of which union workers (or me or 99% of workers) have or ever will have.  You can literally walk off the street and be on the assembly line in weeks if not days.  Yes it’s hard work but so are most blue collar jobs.  What a company pays you has nothing to do with what they pay janitors or lawyers or CEOs.  If you don’t like your job or your pay go find another one.  That’s life.

[akirby]

6 minutes ago, twintornados said:

 

The strike vote is a vital tool that the rank and file gives to their negotiation team to call a strike if the negotiations tank. Now, again, as I have said before, the "final offer" should be presented to the rank and file and if the rank and file rejects it, it will give the negotiation team more bite at the table. But, admittedly, I do not know the what the minimum "floor" at the table would be to actually bring back to said rank and file.

But that’s my point.  A strike shouldn’t be authorized until the workers hear the final offer.  I bet the vote wouldn’t be anywhere close to 97% given the current offers.

[twintornados]

5 minutes ago, akirby said:

But that’s my point.  A strike shouldn’t be authorized until the workers hear the final offer.  I bet the vote wouldn’t be anywhere close to 97% given the current offers.

 

That's not how it works friend. The rank and file, by giving authorization via a strike vote are entrusting that the negotiation teams are acting in their best interest....you may not agree, but that is what it is.

[akirby]

7 minutes ago, twintornados said:

 

That's not how it works friend. The rank and file, by giving authorization via a strike vote are entrusting that the negotiation teams are acting in their best interest....you may not agree, but that is what it is.

I understand the game.  It gives negotiators more leverage.  That doesn’t stop the union from taking the last proposal to the workers to see if they want to ratify it.  If they don’t then strike.  Seems stupid to strike without knowing how the workers feel about an offer.

[twintornados]

43 minutes ago, akirby said:

I understand the game.  It gives negotiators more leverage.  That doesn’t stop the union from taking the last proposal to the workers to see if they want to ratify it.  If they don’t then strike.  Seems stupid to strike without knowing how the workers feel about an offer.

 

I think I said that...?

 

53 minutes ago, twintornados said:

 

The strike vote is a vital tool that the rank and file gives to their negotiation team to call a strike if the negotiations tank. Now, again, as I have said before, the "final offer" should be presented to the rank and file and if the rank and file rejects it, it will give the negotiation team more bite at the table. But, admittedly, I do not know the what the minimum "floor" at the table would be to actually bring back to said rank and file.

 

[akirby]

9 hours ago, twintornados said:

 

I think I said that...?

 

 

So you agreed with me but told me that’s not how it works?  Ok.

[twintornados]

45 minutes ago, akirby said:

So you agreed with me but told me that’s not how it works?  Ok.

 

You have it backwards...you agreed with me

[Len_A]

CEO pay sucks. That's a given. But the ratio of CEO pay to their workers pay is completely, 100% irrelevant. The UAW has no right to demand as much as they are. It's ridiculous, I give a damn how backwards their members buying power is. Absolutely not a single one of you have to right to make those insane demands. You're already uncompetitive with the transplants. And yes, the transplants CEO pay is ridiculous, as well. They've just better at hiding it (mansions, private school tuition for their kids, college education, even overseas, paid for). Battling the corporations is never going to solve it. Every CEO, at every corporation in the USA, Canada, Western Europe, Australia/New Zeeland, Japan and South Korea all pay their CEOs ridiculous amounts of money. All this battle is going to do is create even more negativity toward anything union made. I'm done trying to be a cheerleader for the Detroit (We ain't big anymore) Three. All that's done is subject me to ridicule and damage my career. NO more. I'm firmly on the other side, even though my Cadillac/Lincoln level health insurance is because of my wife's union. My wife, with TWO college degrees, who dispite the great health insurance, is drastically underpaid, even with a CBA. So my attitude now, as the adult child of an hourly Ford retiree, that attitude now is f**k you. You're losing supporters and customers. See me in five years when the Detroit Three's collective market share is below 40%. Below 35%. The asshole who had the laughing emoji - see who is laughing then, mother******.

Edited September 16, 2023 by Len_A

[twintornados]

51 minutes ago, Len_A said:

CEO pay sucks. That's a given. But the ratio of CEO pay to their workers pay is completely, 100% irrelevant. The UAW has no right to demand as much as they are.

 

GM CEO Mary Barra received a 34% raise...

[akirby]

1 hour ago, twintornados said:

 

GM CEO Mary Barra received a 34% raise...

She’s not an assembly line worker therefore it’s irrelevant.  Each job has a market value and that has nothing to do with how much the owner or the CEO or anyone else makes.  When you hire somebody to paint your house does the price vary depending on how much that company’s owner makes or how much the company made last year?  Of course not.  If you want to share in the profits then become an investor otherwise you’re just a paid laborer competing against other paid laborers for similar jobs.

[fuzzymoomoo]

Just gonna leave this here

[akirby]

Base pay is actually lower than Europe and only slightly higher than Japan.  The huge difference in in LTIs - long term incentives aka stock and stock options which can vary widely depending on stock performance.

 

But again it’s completely irrelevant.