silvrsvt Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/02/retail-h2-stations-close-in-california-while-h2-heavy-trucking-expands/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 3 hours ago, silvrsvt said: https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/02/retail-h2-stations-close-in-california-while-h2-heavy-trucking-expands/ DOH! I saw that...lack of demand vs overhead maybe? And the plot thickens...why pursue a tech that seems dead on the table? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 34 minutes ago, Deanh said: DOH! I saw that...lack of demand vs overhead maybe? And the plot thickens...why pursue a tech that seems dead on the table Because electric makes more sense for passenger cars but not for heavy vehicles. And making and storing hydrogen for heavy fleet vehicles is far easier because it doesn’t require vast distribution. So that’s why they’re pursuing it for heavy fleet vehicles but not passenger cars. I don’t know how to explain it any better or why you can’t understand it. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 (edited) 59 minutes ago, akirby said: Because electric makes more sense for passenger cars but not for heavy vehicles. And making and storing hydrogen for heavy fleet vehicles is far easier because it doesn’t require vast distribution. So that’s why they’re pursuing it for heavy fleet vehicles but not passenger cars. I don’t know how to explain it any better or why you can’t understand it. ok, fully understand the "heavy vehcile side of things"...so then why BMW?...why Honda ?...why Toyota ?....last I looked they DONT manufacture "heavy vehicles" so why pursue the technology if its just wasted revenue..Hyundai is also developing hydrogen PASSENGER cars, then theres also Land Rover..thats my question..So, reverse course and right back at you...why cant YOU understand that ?...sheesh...REALLY simple question, that quite literally youve failed to answer just poo poo the question and resort to tinfoil hat cliches...FULLY understand EV making more sense, never said anything different...but a straight answer to an honest question would be appreciated rather than constant deflection..which basically means YOU DONT KNOW. And Ill be the first to say, I dont either...its why I asked...only thing I can remotely think of is a combo of BEV and Hydrogen...but thats a BIG maybe... Edited February 13 by Deanh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted February 13 Author Share Posted February 13 (edited) 32 minutes ago, Deanh said: ok, fully understand the "heavy vehcile side of things"...so then why BMW?...why Honda ?...why Toyota ?....last I looked they DONT manufacture "heavy vehicles" so why pursue the technology if its just wasted revenue..Hyundai is also developing hydrogen PASSENGER cars, then theres also Land Rover..thats my question..So, reverse course and right back at you...why cant YOU understand that ?...sheesh...REALLY simple question, that quite literally youve failed to answer just poo poo the question and resort to tinfoil hat cliches...FULLY understand EV making more sense, never said anything different...but a straight answer to an honest question would be appreciated rather than constant deflection..which basically means YOU DONT KNOW. And Ill be the first to say, I dont either...its why I asked...only thing I can remotely think of is a combo of BEV and Hydrogen...but thats a BIG maybe... Have you ever heard of companies saying something and not coming through with it? They are just playing the tell the investors what they want to hear or think they want to hear so they don't sell their stocks. Spending millions on hydrogen vs spending billions on EV tech/infrastructure should tell you what you need. More info: Will hydrogen overtake batteries in the race for zero-emission cars? Edited February 13 by silvrsvt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackinaw Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 Maybe pertinent to this discussion. "Toyota says goodbye to electric cars and focuses on hydrogen – “They are not the solution” https://lagradaonline.com/en/toyota-electric-cars-hydrogen-solution/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 15 minutes ago, Deanh said: ok, fully understand the "heavy vehcile side of things"...so then why BMW?...why Honda ?...why Toyota ?....last I looked they DONT manufacture "heavy vehicles" so why pursue the technology if its just wasted revenue..Hyundai is also developing hydrogen PASSENGER cars, then theres also Land Rover..thats my question..So, reverse course and right back at you...why cant YOU understand that ?...sheesh...REALLY simple question, that quite literally youve failed to answer just poo poo the question and resort to tinfoil hat cliches...FULLY understand EV making more sense, never said anything different...but a straight answer to an honest question would be appreciated rather than constant deflection..which basically means YOU DONT KNOW. And Ill be the first to say, I dont either...its why I asked...only thing I can remotely think of is a combo of BEV and Hydrogen...but thats a BIG maybe... The new plant supplies fuel cells to other mfrs of heavy vehicles, construction equipment and generators, not necessarily their own vehicles. Honda is planning to launch a fuel cell CR-V in California but that’s just a one off science experiment in a very limited area. The bulk of the sales will be to other mfrs. And there is no deflection here. We’ve given you honest and factual answers from day one you just can’t seem to comprehend what’s being said. If you go read what these companies like Hyundai have planned, it’s all around supplying heavy trucks, equipment and generators. Passenger vehicles are nothing more than test beds and rolling laboratories to further refine fuel cell technology. None of those companies are planning to roll out large fleets of hydrogen powered passenger vehicles. The refueling infrastructure isn’t there and there is no business case to build it. Thats why the ones in California are closing. Go read the article above and this one from Hyundai and maybe you’ll believe what we’re trying to tell you. https://www.hyundainews.com/en-us/releases/3049 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted February 13 Author Share Posted February 13 13 minutes ago, mackinaw said: Maybe pertinent to this discussion. "Toyota says goodbye to electric cars and focuses on hydrogen – “They are not the solution” https://lagradaonline.com/en/toyota-electric-cars-hydrogen-solution/ Sure that is one way to spin it but you have this Toyota adding BEV at Kentucky What it boils down to is they are talking out of both sides of their mouth and anti EV people are playing up their actions. Check the agendas.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 14 minutes ago, mackinaw said: Maybe pertinent to this discussion. "Toyota says goodbye to electric cars and focuses on hydrogen – “They are not the solution” https://lagradaonline.com/en/toyota-electric-cars-hydrogen-solution/ They mention passenger vehicles but the meat of their plans is still heavy machinery and vehicles. Quote Toyota constructed the first hydrogen-fueled Hilux FCEV prototype pickup truck with a consortium in the UK, showing how a fuel cell may be integrated into a pickup truck. Thanks to hydrogen being light, light-duty FCEVs can haul more weight and have greater payload capacities than other zero-emission vehicle options. For some years, the company has been incorporating its fuel cell technology into heavy-duty transport and applications. Most recently, hydrogen-powered trucks from the Netherlands-based VDL Groep and the French manufacturer Hyliko entered the European truck market. The Japanese giant is also expanding its relationship with Corvus in Norway for future marine applications, such as ships and boats, and will use the hydrogen-powered VDL trucks to decarbonize its logistical operations. Furthermore, the French clean mobility startup GCK plans to transform diesel coaches into zero-emission hydrogen cars using Toyota fuel cell modules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 14 minutes ago, akirby said: The new plant supplies fuel cells to other mfrs of heavy vehicles, construction equipment and generators, not necessarily their own vehicles. Honda is planning to launch a fuel cell CR-V in California but that’s just a one off science experiment in a very limited area. The bulk of the sales will be to other mfrs. And there is no deflection here. We’ve given you honest and factual answers from day one you just can’t seem to comprehend what’s being said. If you go read what these companies like Hyundai have planned, it’s all around supplying heavy trucks, equipment and generators. Passenger vehicles are nothing more than test beds and rolling laboratories to further refine fuel cell technology. None of those companies are planning to roll out large fleets of hydrogen powered passenger vehicles. The refueling infrastructure isn’t there and there is no business case to build it. Thats why the ones in California are closing. Go read the article above and this one from Hyundai and maybe you’ll believe what we’re trying to tell you. https://www.hyundainews.com/en-us/releases/3049 ( its not just Hyundai...BMW is the one I find most perplexing as they have nothing in that "heavy" class, along with a couple of other manufacturers ) And Im not trying to argue or be condesending...it just makes ZERO sense, and thus my head scratching, to pursue a technology thats basically dead in the water barring "heavy duty usage " and even that will be frought with infrastructure issues... 17 minutes ago, silvrsvt said: Have you ever heard of companies saying something and not coming through with it? They are just playing the tell the investors what they want to hear or think they want to hear so they don't sell their stocks. Spending millions on hydrogen vs spending billions on EV tech/infrastructure should tell you what you need. More info: Will hydrogen overtake batteries in the race for zero-emission cars? yep, the old bait and switch, pretty common with manufacturers ....so its to appese investors?...that semi makes sense...just seems, at least on the surface , a complete waste of money...counter intuiitive for sure.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 28 minutes ago, mackinaw said: Maybe pertinent to this discussion. "Toyota says goodbye to electric cars and focuses on hydrogen – “They are not the solution” https://lagradaonline.com/en/toyota-electric-cars-hydrogen-solution/ dammit...thats not helping....lol... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 23 minutes ago, akirby said: They mention passenger vehicles but the meat of their plans is still heavy machinery and vehicles. drinking at work will be the death of me....Ill shut up about it...but my nature is that somewhat unanswered questions derive me friggen nuts.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 26 minutes ago, silvrsvt said: Sure that is one way to spin it but you have this Toyota adding BEV at Kentucky What it boils down to is they are talking out of both sides of their mouth and anti EV people are playing up their actions. Check the agendas.... that makes perfect sense to me...pandering to Investors and shareholders...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackinaw Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 1 hour ago, silvrsvt said: .....What it boils down to is they are talking out of both sides of their mouth and anti EV people are playing up their actions. Check the agendas.... Sure they're talking out both sides of their mouth, but Toyota Board Chair, Akio Toyoda, remains quite skeptical about EV's. He sees EV adoption rate peaking at 30% with the remainder being split between hybrids and hydrogen powered vehicles. https://finance.yahoo.com/news/toyota-chairman-doubles-down-electric-111721568.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAAfAhfo2m5kvRE3m6DZPcUVCfBpFCn9cet6DKS2BJ68tExQozd9OOZKZDMBgAEme8A1J0zXroDLNiTcU2gKduhf7lVQJR6Mpzh286YIB4dEyXmYWbGIPIxrBw6j1pTt1gy4tl73WiTFHZvZEuP_kUcwpR6z96KaETqkdFon7wLwY#:~:text=Toyoda estimated that fully-electric,in aggressively pushing electric vehicles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 1 hour ago, mackinaw said: Sure they're talking out both sides of their mouth, but Toyota Board Chair, Akio Toyoda, remains quite skeptical about EV's. He sees EV adoption rate peaking at 30% with the remainder being split between hybrids and hydrogen powered vehicles. https://finance.yahoo.com/news/toyota-chairman-doubles-down-electric-111721568.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAAfAhfo2m5kvRE3m6DZPcUVCfBpFCn9cet6DKS2BJ68tExQozd9OOZKZDMBgAEme8A1J0zXroDLNiTcU2gKduhf7lVQJR6Mpzh286YIB4dEyXmYWbGIPIxrBw6j1pTt1gy4tl73WiTFHZvZEuP_kUcwpR6z96KaETqkdFon7wLwY#:~:text=Toyoda estimated that fully-electric,in aggressively pushing electric vehicles. Considering it takes twice as much electricity to create enough hydrogen as it does to simply charge an EV to drive 100 miles and the fact you can charge at home - I don’t see that happening. I do see current EVs peaking at 30% - probably lower - but new batteries and technology and infrastructure will change that. It definitely has a place for fleets and commercial use where distribution isn’t an issue. And renewable energy helps the equation on hydrogen generation but whatever electricity you use for electrolysis is still more efficient charging a BEV. I think these companies invested big in hydrogen over a decade ago and they don’t want to walk away from it for whatever reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 38 minutes ago, akirby said: Considering it takes twice as much electricity to create enough hydrogen as it does to simply charge an EV to drive 100 miles and the fact you can charge at home - I don’t see that happening. I do see current EVs peaking at 30% - probably lower - but new batteries and technology and infrastructure will change that. It definitely has a place for fleets and commercial use where distribution isn’t an issue. And renewable energy helps the equation on hydrogen generation but whatever electricity you use for electrolysis is still more efficient charging a BEV. I think these companies invested big in hydrogen over a decade ago and they don’t want to walk away from it for whatever reason. paradox is Id think that all the people worried about the environment would probably, if they weighed everything, embrace Hydrogen as having less overall "damage" than BEV...strange world we live in for sure... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harley Lover Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 Re: Hydrogen. If I recall correctly, the Japanese government provides significant incentives to its OEMs to develop hydrogen tech for vehicles. I *think* the same is true of South Korea. Perhaps the Japanese (and maybe Korean) governments already have in place (or are planning) a significant hydrogen infrastructure for their country's vehicle fleets? I could see a geopolitical angle to such an emphasis, as it would diminish their reliance on imported fuels. Not saying any of this is true, just speculating. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted February 14 Author Share Posted February 14 3 hours ago, Deanh said: paradox is Id think that all the people worried about the environment would probably, if they weighed everything, embrace Hydrogen as having less overall "damage" than BEV...strange world we live in for sure... The damage part is overstated nor any worse then the oil industry..At some point lithium manufacturing will become closed loop to a point depending on recycling then new raw materials. hydrogen sounds great but if it was really a viable alternative for everything, different government would be pushing it more so then EVs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 16 hours ago, silvrsvt said: The damage part is overstated nor any worse then the oil industry..At some point lithium manufacturing will become closed loop to a point depending on recycling then new raw materials. hydrogen sounds great but if it was really a viable alternative for everything, different government would be pushing it more so then EVs. I, not sure it is overstated, but thats an arguable point thatcoiuld probably be taken up with the poor kid in the mine.....then ewe need to enter a conspiracy theory regarding EVs and the GOVT hellbent on pushing them...follow the $$$$ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted February 14 Author Share Posted February 14 32 minutes ago, Deanh said: I, not sure it is overstated, but thats an arguable point thatcoiuld probably be taken up with the poor kid in the mine.....then ewe need to enter a conspiracy theory regarding EVs and the GOVT hellbent on pushing them...follow the $$$$ Just like the governments requiring emission and fuel economy standards? Not to mention "mining" for lithium isn't the same as some kid working in a diamond mine or some other rare material in a conflict zone in Africa. https://samcotech.com/what-is-lithium-extraction-and-how-does-it-work/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captainp4 Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 20 hours ago, Harley Lover said: Re: Hydrogen. If I recall correctly, the Japanese government provides significant incentives to its OEMs to develop hydrogen tech for vehicles. I *think* the same is true of South Korea. Perhaps the Japanese (and maybe Korean) governments already have in place (or are planning) a significant hydrogen infrastructure for their country's vehicle fleets? I could see a geopolitical angle to such an emphasis, as it would diminish their reliance on imported fuels. Not saying any of this is true, just speculating. Came here to say this as well, the Japanese government has been "pushing" hydrogen for quite a while, which I think explains the Japanese manufacturers pursuing it and why Toyota especially has been so hesitant to jump on the BEV bandwagon. The BMW one doesn't really make sense to me either, they don't do anything heavy or industrial wise AFAIK and sounds like Europe is pretty set on BEV. I'll admit I haven't looked into hydrogen much, but from what I've seen and the one review video I watched of a hydrogen car being tested in CA, it sounds like the energy input to make it and the infrastructure just doesn't work. But, could be FUD articles just like you see on BEV, honestly don't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 42 minutes ago, silvrsvt said: Just like the governments requiring emission and fuel economy standards? Not to mention "mining" for lithium isn't the same as some kid working in a diamond mine or some other rare material in a conflict zone in Africa. https://samcotech.com/what-is-lithium-extraction-and-how-does-it-work/ Cobalt is what Im referring to...Congo....not a fan of people virtue signalling how BEVs will help the environment when that shite is going on, amoungst a multitude other issues that seem to be completely ignored, all this whilst BEV is basically still in its infancy with no history of long term effects...something ICE, good or bad ( but has improved signioficantly ) does have. And to be quite honest, Oil is going no where...we couldnt survive without it and its bi-products...and I dont think BEV is going anywhere either, and it too will improve its "signature " over time.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 17 minutes ago, Captainp4 said: Came here to say this as well, the Japanese government has been "pushing" hydrogen for quite a while, which I think explains the Japanese manufacturers pursuing it and why Toyota especially has been so hesitant to jump on the BEV bandwagon. The BMW one doesn't really make sense to me either, they don't do anything heavy or industrial wise AFAIK and sounds like Europe is pretty set on BEV. I'll admit I haven't looked into hydrogen much, but from what I've seen and the one review video I watched of a hydrogen car being tested in CA, it sounds like the energy input to make it and the infrastructure just doesn't work. But, could be FUD articles just like you see on BEV, honestly don't know. perhaps...guessing here, the Japanese Govt is subsidizing the manufacturers, maybe the German Govt as well...but that leaves Audi / PAG etc out of the loop...again...the BMW decision perplexes me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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