Unique Hybrid Set-Up in the New 2024 Lincoln Nautilus

[Gurgeh]

3 hours ago, Rick73 said:

Your original post was about the uniqueness of Ford combining a 2.0L Ecoboost with an E-CVT.  I personally find that subject very interesting, but obviously to discuss its merits (pros and cons), it requires comparing against other designs because there are no others exactly the same.  Let’s say we would have to think outside the box somewhat, or at least not limit conversation to a small box.  

 

My comment had absolutely nothing to do with you buying a Nautilus, which wasn’t part of original post in the first place.  If you actually want to  discuss original post objectively, and not take comments personally, I’m all in.  On the other hand if you now want to discuss your new Nautilus, I can respect that and will exit discussion.

 

P.S. — My mention of Maverick Hybrid was taken out of context.  I was not comparing Nautilus to Maverick, but rather the relative improvement different hybrid designs make, per original post subject matter.

I read your post as remorse that Ford didn't focus more on fuel efficiency with the hybrid system they implemented in the new Nautilus as compared to the Maverick. As we have hashed out, they are both quite good systems, but very different and are implemented for substantially different reasons. I'm sorry if I misunderstood the point you were trying to make and in any case should have avoided the sharp tone I used. Cheers!

[akirby]

2 hours ago, Gurgeh said:

I read your post as remorse that Ford didn't focus more on fuel efficiency with the hybrid system they implemented in the new Nautilus as compared to the Maverick.

As did everyone else.  But he’s obsessed with maximizing efficiency and doesn’t like using a hybrid as a power adder as opposed to providing maximum mpg.

[Rick73]

2 hours ago, akirby said:

As did everyone else.  But he’s obsessed with maximizing efficiency and doesn’t like using a hybrid as a power adder as opposed to providing maximum mpg.

Maybe, but even Ford and Farley are starting to agree.  They’re just slow.

[Rick73]

5 hours ago, Gurgeh said:

I read your post as remorse that Ford didn't focus more on fuel efficiency with the hybrid system they implemented in the new Nautilus as compared to the Maverick. As we have hashed out, they are both quite good systems, but very different and are implemented for substantially different reasons. I'm sorry if I misunderstood the point you were trying to make and in any case should have avoided the sharp tone I used. Cheers!

No remorse whatsoever because I have no dog in this fight.  Why should I care either way?.  I’m just intrigued by the different technologies and how much value they may add.  This unique Nautilus hybrid system gives us a glimpse into something we haven’t seen before.  Example:

 

FWD Maverick’s EPA City rating is improved 83% by combination of Atkinson and e-CVT / hybrid.

 

Nautilus’ EPA City rating is improved 43% by adding e-CVT / hybrid but keeping turbo engine for added performance.

 

These vehicles are obviously completely different and for different uses, but now at least we have a rough idea of impact of added Hybrid performance on fuel economy.  I’m not judging, or suggesting one is better than the other.  That’s entirely up to buyers. 

 

For what it’s worth, Toyota started advertising a new Crown Signia crossover with 243 HP hybrid power, estimated 36 MPG Combined.  It looks similar in size to Nautilus (from pictures), which also suggests there is likely a significant fuel-economy penalty when using EB versus Atkinson, even when aided by e-CVT.  Again, not judging, just comparing based on facts.  It’s also interesting that the Toyota 243 HP hybrid powertrain is pretty close to 250 HP base Nautilus.  I’d bet that’s plenty of power for “most” buyers.

 

From a marketing perspective, obviously Ford/Lincoln can’t offer a Maverick powertrain in a luxury Nautilus even if power was more than enough.

[jpd80]

The difference I see with the 2.0 EB hybrid is the combined 310 hp is more in line with the previous 2.7 EB

and in that respect, much better fuel economy 30/31mpg vs 19/25 mpg while keeping 

 most of the horsepower.

I imagine that an extra 55 horsepower over the Toyota hybrid thingy is a bit impressive…

We’ll see if Lincoln buyers actually want this or if it becomes forgotten like Aviator hybrid

because base power levels are sufficient….

On the 2.5 Atkinson,

It’s not about marketing, Chinese Nautilus was developed with only a couple of ECU calibrations,

a 2.0 EB Auto and a 2.0 EB hybrid so a 2.5 hybrid was never really considered and to do one now

would add a lot of cost in design, development and field reliability  testing that’s probably unrecoverable.

Edited March 1 by jpd80

[Gurgeh]

At Lincoln's show-and-tell event in Palm Springs (the embargo on reviews from that event only got lifted today), the engineers there explained more about the hybrid's operation. This, from Car and Driver:

 

"Much of our time was spent behind the wheel of the new hybrid model, a $1500 option on any trim level, and of the two powertrains, it's the one that suits the Nautilus best. It's the same power-split arrangement Ford's used for decades, in this case combining a more powerful version of the turbo 2.0-liter engine–it gains 50 hp and 15 lb-ft thanks to a larger turbocharger—with two electric motors through a planetary gearset. A dog clutch sends 50 percent of the torque to the rear axle as needed."

 

So the extra power in the hybrid set-up seems to come mostly from changes to the base 2.0 turbo engine. Interesting.

[akirby]

1 hour ago, Gurgeh said:

At Lincoln's show-and-tell event in Palm Springs (the embargo on reviews from that event only got lifted today), the engineers there explained more about the hybrid's operation. This, from Car and Driver:

 

"Much of our time was spent behind the wheel of the new hybrid model, a $1500 option on any trim level, and of the two powertrains, it's the one that suits the Nautilus best. It's the same power-split arrangement Ford's used for decades, in this case combining a more powerful version of the turbo 2.0-liter engine–it gains 50 hp and 15 lb-ft thanks to a larger turbocharger—with two electric motors through a planetary gearset. A dog clutch sends 50 percent of the torque to the rear axle as needed."

 

So the extra power in the hybrid set-up seems to come mostly from changes to the base 2.0 turbo engine. Interesting.

Wow.  Based on the non hybrid specs of 250/280 I don’t think that one was upgraded.  They must have targeted the old 2.7L performance wise with the hybrid.

 

Oh the inefficiency.  If only they used a smaller Atkinson cycle engine they could have gotten 3 more mpg…….😂

[smsfordman]

On 3/14/2024 at 10:25 AM, Gurgeh said:

At Lincoln's show-and-tell event in Palm Springs (the embargo on reviews from that event only got lifted today), the engineers there explained more about the hybrid's operation. This, from Car and Driver:

 

"Much of our time was spent behind the wheel of the new hybrid model, a $1500 option on any trim level, and of the two powertrains, it's the one that suits the Nautilus best. It's the same power-split arrangement Ford's used for decades, in this case combining a more powerful version of the turbo 2.0-liter engine–it gains 50 hp and 15 lb-ft thanks to a larger turbocharger—with two electric motors through a planetary gearset. A dog clutch sends 50 percent of the torque to the rear axle as needed."

 

So the extra power in the hybrid set-up seems to come mostly from changes to the base 2.0 turbo engine. Interesting.

Just wanted to ask about the change over from engine operation to electric driving?  Is there an on screen indicator to identify when it which mode the vehicle is in? The owners manual indicates a Power gauge on screen but I have yet to find this feature. Your comments please would be appreciated. Thanks

[Gurgeh]

4 hours ago, smsfordman said:

Just wanted to ask about the change over from engine operation to electric driving?  Is there an on screen indicator to identify when it which mode the vehicle is in? The owners manual indicates a Power gauge on screen but I have yet to find this feature. Your comments please would be appreciated. Thanks

Yes, it is the "Fuel Efficiency" widget you can put up on your panoramic screen. It shows when it is in electric-only mode (mainly at launch and during some easy driving intervals) and when not (doesn't mean there's no electric boost going on, only that it's not electric only). It also shows your overall historical MPG number (resettable on the widget screen) and has a circular gauge of 0-40, with a needle pointing at your current estimated MPG as you're driving along.

[smsfordman]

Ok I will check that out. I have not looked at that yet. I hope that helps everyone as well. Thank you great review.

[smsfordman]

Hi I have checked out the image on the fuel economy widget and I do see where the electric driving image is displayed for the Power Guage.

 My question is as per the owners manual they also list a Power Flow display, with the image and descrirtion of where the electric energy is going to ie from the generator to the battery or from the battery to the motor.I have not been able to locate this.It says it is located in apps. Any help on this one please.

[Gurgeh]

13 hours ago, smsfordman said:

Hi I have checked out the image on the fuel economy widget and I do see where the electric driving image is displayed for the Power Guage.

 My question is as per the owners manual they also list a Power Flow display, with the image and descrirtion of where the electric energy is going to ie from the generator to the battery or from the battery to the motor.I have not been able to locate this.It says it is located in apps. Any help on this one please.

There is no power flow display, at least none that I am aware of, despite what the owners manual says. Maybe it is an app that wasn't quite ready for launch, or maybe they just changed their mind. There are lots of apps that could be available, I think. One I had on my 2019 Nautilus that I often had displayed in the driver's info cluster was what tires were receiving power (and how much) at any given time. You could see on easy highway driving when power disconnected to the rear wheels for improved fuel efficiency and the surge of power on acceleration. It provided mostly useless info but it was cool to look at (I would put power flow in the same category). I suspect we'll see additional apps becoming available over time. But we'll see.

[smsfordman]

Thanks for the update. It would be interesting to see though as other hybrids have the power flow. I also hope they bring the tachometer to the hybrid like the ICE model in the excite mode.

 

 

[Gurgeh]

13 hours ago, smsfordman said:

Thanks for the update. It would be interesting to see though as other hybrids have the power flow. I also hope they bring the tachometer to the hybrid like the ICE model in the excite mode.

 

 

Agree with you on a power-flow widget. Though it doesn't provide hugely useful information, it helps you understand better how the hybrid drivetrain works. But I'm not sure what purpose a tachometer on a hybrid with an e-CVT would serve. It will generally just show a flat line. The whole purpose of this type of transmission is to keep rpms constant -- constantly at the sweet spot for power delivery -- and, as you accelerate the variable gear ratio does all the movement.

[RedHoncho01]

On 2/29/2024 at 6:07 PM, Rick73 said:

No remorse whatsoever because I have no dog in this fight.  Why should I care either way?.  I’m just intrigued by the different technologies and how much value they may add.  This unique Nautilus hybrid system gives us a glimpse into something we haven’t seen before.  Example:

 

FWD Maverick’s EPA City rating is improved 83% by combination of Atkinson and e-CVT / hybrid.

 

Nautilus’ EPA City rating is improved 43% by adding e-CVT / hybrid but keeping turbo engine for added performance.

 

These vehicles are obviously completely different and for different uses, but now at least we have a rough idea of impact of added Hybrid performance on fuel economy.  I’m not judging, or suggesting one is better than the other.  That’s entirely up to buyers. 

 

For what it’s worth, Toyota started advertising a new Crown Signia crossover with 243 HP hybrid power, estimated 36 MPG Combined.  It looks similar in size to Nautilus (from pictures), which also suggests there is likely a significant fuel-economy penalty when using EB versus Atkinson, even when aided by e-CVT.  Again, not judging, just comparing based on facts.  It’s also interesting that the Toyota 243 HP hybrid powertrain is pretty close to 250 HP base Nautilus.  I’d bet that’s plenty of power for “most” buyers.

 

From a marketing perspective, obviously Ford/Lincoln can’t offer a Maverick powertrain in a luxury Nautilus even if power was more than enough.

I currently drive a Corsair GT PHEV with the 2.5L Atkinson engine.  While I find the torque and horsepower acceptable it does come at a cost of considerable engine noise invading the cabin.  It is one of my biggest complaints about the powertrain.  The engine noise has been documented in several press reviews as well.

 

I have a Nautilus FHEV on order and recently test drove one to make certain of my ordering decision.  The 2.0L in the FHEV set up is considerably quieter than the Atkinson cycle engine.  It feels like there is more torque and acceleration compared the Atkinson engine.

 

Based upon this short experience I doubt I will ever purchase another vehicle with an Atkinson cycle engine.  I prefer the quiet luxury over the engine drone any day.

[Andrew L]

51 minutes ago, RedHoncho01 said:

I currently drive a Corsair GT PHEV with the 2.5L Atkinson engine.  While I find the torque and horsepower acceptable it does come at a cost of considerable engine noise invading the cabin.  It is one of my biggest complaints about the powertrain.  The engine noise has been documented in several press reviews as well.

 

I have a Nautilus FHEV on order and recently test drove one to make certain of my ordering decision.  The 2.0L in the FHEV set up is considerably quieter than the Atkinson cycle engine.  It feels like there is more torque and acceleration compared the Atkinson engine.

 

Based upon this short experience I doubt I will ever purchase another vehicle with an Atkinson cycle engine.  I prefer the quiet luxury over the engine drone any day.

 

I used to have a 2013 MKZ Hybrid and I found it pretty rough when it would switch back to gas from electric and on cold (or cooler days here in FL) it would be kind of rough.  Huge difference compared to my 2017 3.0T AWD which is very smooth and quiet in comparison. 

[Rick73]

2 hours ago, RedHoncho01 said:

I currently drive a Corsair GT PHEV with the 2.5L Atkinson engine.  While I find the torque and horsepower acceptable it does come at a cost of considerable engine noise invading the cabin.  It is one of my biggest complaints about the powertrain.  The engine noise has been documented in several press reviews as well.

 

I have a Nautilus FHEV on order and recently test drove one to make certain of my ordering decision.  The 2.0L in the FHEV set up is considerably quieter than the Atkinson cycle engine.  It feels like there is more torque and acceleration compared the Atkinson engine.

 

Based upon this short experience I doubt I will ever purchase another vehicle with an Atkinson cycle engine.  I prefer the quiet luxury over the engine drone any day.

Do you think that’s due to Atkinson-cycle engine design in general, or possibly the Ford 2.5L 4-cylinder Atkinson specifically, and or in this application?

 

An engine with only +/- 162 HP will have to work pretty hard to power a 4,400 vehicle, so it’s not entirely surprising that it may be a little loud and rough at times.

 

Anyway, my personal opinion for quite a while has been that Ford needs a larger-displacement higher-horsepower Atkinson engine for heavier vehicles.  I would guess the 2.5L Atkinson does better in lighter vehicles where it doesn’t have to work as hard, and therefore engine speed can remain lower on average.  That would help reduce noise, vibration, and harshness.

[Gurgeh]

2 hours ago, Rick73 said:

Do you think that’s due to Atkinson-cycle engine design in general, or possibly the Ford 2.5L 4-cylinder Atkinson specifically, and or in this application?

 

An engine with only +/- 162 HP will have to work pretty hard to power a 4,400 vehicle, so it’s not entirely surprising that it may be a little loud and rough at times.

 

Anyway, my personal opinion for quite a while has been that Ford needs a larger-displacement higher-horsepower Atkinson engine for heavier vehicles.  I would guess the 2.5L Atkinson does better in lighter vehicles where it doesn’t have to work as hard, and therefore engine speed can remain lower on average.  That would help reduce noise, vibration, and harshness.

Or, for those larger vehicles going the way they went with the Nautilus (going with a more powerful standard turbo as your base engine) might make good sense. It won't get you quite the fuel efficiency, but you'll get the increased power and smooth operation they are probably looking for, along with modestly improved mpg. All depends on if the customer is looking to maximize performance on a big vehicle or maximum fuel efficiency at the expense of power and possibly smoothness of operation. My Nautilus is my first hybrid and have never owned one with an Atkinson engine, so I can't really comment on whether they inherently run a little rougher or if it is just the version that was in the MKZ.

[Rick73]

29 minutes ago, Gurgeh said:

Or, for those larger vehicles going the way they went with the Nautilus (going with a more powerful standard turbo as your base engine) might make good sense. It won't get you quite the fuel efficiency, but you'll get the increased power and smooth operation they are probably looking for, along with modestly improved mpg. All depends on if the customer is looking to maximize performance on a big vehicle or maximum fuel efficiency at the expense of power and possibly smoothness of operation. My Nautilus is my first hybrid and have never owned one with an Atkinson engine, so I can't really comment on whether they inherently run a little rougher or if it is just the version that was in the MKZ.

No; at least it wouldn’t need to come down to choosing one or the other if a more efficient Atkinson engine of EQUAL power was available.  If engineers need or want a 250 HP engine in order for vehicle to provide the desired performance, then the question is whether a 2L 250 HP EcoBoost would save gas over a XYZ-liter Atkinson also of 250 HP.  That’s a debatable issue, but I won’t continue to argue a comparison that’s apples to oranges.  That won’t get us anywhere except pissed at each other because it’s like speaking in different languages.

 

Based on present Ford engine specific power output, it would take an Atkinson engine just under 4L to produce 250 HP.  Ford doesn’t have such an engine, and it might not fit your vehicle anyway, so in your case maybe a moot point.  My thought is that Ford needs a larger Atkinson engine particularly for RWD hybrids.

 

Obviously engine requirements can change as powertrain depends more on electric motor and less on engine power.  That has been improving over last 10 years and hopefully the trend will continue so performance is dominated by powerful electric motors — two or three.  Some hybrid vehicles today can combine power from up to three electric motors that I’m aware of.

[smsfordman]

I have driven many Lincoln corsairs all ice models and I can say i do not find them that quite an interior. That is one reason I ordered a Nautilus Hybrid . The Nautilus Hybrid I drove is very smooth and quite interior. I think itmay be better sound insulation and maybe retuning of the Active Noise Control.

[smsfordman]

12 hours ago, Gurgeh said:

Agree with you on a power-flow widget. Though it doesn't provide hugely useful information, it helps you understand better how the hybrid drivetrain works. But I'm not sure what purpose a tachometer on a hybrid with an e-CVT would serve. It will generally just show a flat line. The whole purpose of this type of transmission is to keep rpms constant -- constantly at the sweet spot for power delivery -- and, as you accelerate the variable gear ratio does all the movement.

I would like to see a Tachometer because the vehicle is so smooth driving that you can not tell if it is Electric driving or gas. Even stopped you cannot tell, where as a tach would indicte engine operation.

[SmartKid001]

Lexus RX hybrid with the 2.5L Atkinson engine is almost as quite as the Nautillus in most time but is significantly noisier when acceleration. I guess it's just the nature of Atkinson engine😆

[SmartKid001]

6 minutes ago, smsfordman said:

I would like to see a Tachometer because the vehicle is so smooth driving that you can not tell if it is Electric driving or gas. Even stopped you cannot tell, where as a tach would indicte engine operation.

the 'Power Flow indicator' would suit your demand much better. Chinese Nautilus has that, and I'm not sure why it's abscent in NA version. It's a simple app and doesn't need much effort to add into google system.

[smsfordman]

Interesting where did you se the power flow on the china version. Thanks

[RedHoncho01]

On 3/21/2024 at 9:12 PM, smsfordman said:

I would like to see a Tachometer because the vehicle is so smooth driving that you can not tell if it is Electric driving or gas. Even stopped you cannot tell, where as a tach would indicte engine operation.

My understanding is if you put the vehicle in the EXCITE drive mode there is some sort of tachometer showing in the display.  My Corsair GT will show a tachometer along with a graphic showing how much power the ICE and electric motors are using as well as how much charge is being put back into the HV battery when decelerating or braking.