Feedback from another friend with a problematic Ford

[bec5150]

The thing is ,when a Ford breaks down its, "Damned Fords and their crappy quality I'll never buy a Ford again!"

 

When a Toyota or other import has the exact same problem, its, "I'll be patient, this is really uncommon, <insert foreign brand name here> are all quality cars! Everybody says so!"

It's not about the product, it's about how the customer is treated when the product gives trouble with a common problem. I don't think anyone of the owners discussed were pissed until Ford told em to get bent. After that, they got pissed.

[68fastback]

BMW's, VW's, and Audis have their share of 'horror stories', yet average car buers think they are 'quality cars'.

 

...and it doesn't cost $900 for new ball joints on a CV like on some Audis Some mercedes eat starters and they cost a fortune... I must be one lucky person, because in decades of Fords I've had one serious problem (engine piston slap on '78 460 E250 which cost me because it was out of warranty. But I went on to drive tha truck (concerted new to 4x4 camper with 12.50 33" BFGs) for 265K miles. I'be had two Taurus wagons -- 335K miles and (wife's present taurus wagon) 276K miles.... no trans problems of any kind (yes, I service them every three years - -small price to pay)

 

My point is that may people don;t care for their cars and wonder why they have mechanical problems. Flush cooling, trans and PS every three years, change hoses and belt(s) every 6 years, etc. and cars last a really long time. My daily driver is a '92 Ranger 4x4 ex cab and I can tell you that it has had absolutely noting go wrong with it -- zero!

 

For all of Toyota's alleged quality, their numbers are slipping: in the same period that Ford's F-series quality improved 55%, Toyota recalled a 1/2-million truck-based vehicles for serious safety (steering, etc) defects. The whole quality diff is presently myth. I'll put Grand Marquis reliability and parts costs up against Toyota any day.

 

Anyone who thinks Fords suck aren;t getting the big picture, I think -- you can't believe all the crap the media spews

 

[ANTAUS]

Considering my vast experience helping friends with problematic VW's, Kias, Hyundais, MBenz, BMW, Hondas and Toyota in dealership service centers.... I can tell you it happens quite commonly. (the first 4 being the worst offenders).

 

And it's all about attitude as well. Some people want to hold others accountable, without taking an attitude check first.

 

And when I hear these horror stories, I first ask "What did YOU DO, to deserve this treatment"...And 1 out of 4 times, it's them being the culprit.

 

It's like calling a service center, and when one operator/technician/"service advisor" doesn't give you the results you wanted, nicely finish it, then call a few more times till you get what you want.

 

And most importantly, don't say your wanting to sue...then your opening a can of worms, then no one will help you at all.

Edited January 31, 2007 by ANTAUS

[eddiehaskell]

Every one of the failures mentioned in Ovaltine's original posts seem to be common failures with the specified Ford models. There are numerous reports of spark plugs blown out of modular truck engine heads ( http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=f...+plugs+blow+out ). His friend's experience is not a onesie occurrence. Same thing with plastic CV intake manifolds cracking. I've heard of that one before and unfortunately so have a lot of other people ( http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=f...+manifold+crack ). Ford automatic transmission failures at 50-60,000 miles are so numerous in so many vehicle lines (Taurus's, Escapes, Windstars, Explorers) that you have to wonder how the company can be so utterly incompetent at designing and building them. Focus coil spring failures ( http://www.autosafety.org/article.php?scid=37&did=795 ) and ignition failures ( http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=f...ignition+switch ) are also defects that have been widely reported.

 

Widespread problems like these where the company will not stand behind the product and make the customer whole again absolutely destroy your reputation. Especially in the age of the internet. If you were a customer without some special allegiance to Ford (either work or family), why would you ever buy another Ford again? Hell, the company won't back you up when something completely unacceptable like a freaking transmission failure occurs at 60,000 miles. And you're out $3K because some prick manager didn't do his job while pulling down his $200K salary. It's no wonder Ford is in the shape its in.

:(

[Michael Reynolds]

My brother's 2000 Ody with a tick over 99K miles had the transmission go out. He was the second owner and Honda STILL replaced the transmission with no cost to my brother. He'll be back at the Honda dealer for his next vehicle.

 

Yes, OTHER manufacturers do step up.

 

Don't even talk to me about the 5-spd/V-6 Honda combo from MY 1999-2003 found in the Odyssey, Type-S, and Accords. Those trannys were known to last all but 60K miles before they needed a replacement, which is probably why Honda didn't balk at replacing it for free because they know damn well what they were up against. A good friend of mine had a CL Type-S, and at 89K or so that transmission was slipping as if there were no tomorrow.

 

So of course OTHER manufacturers step up........having to replace a transmission here and there vs. a massive recall makes a big difference.

[kyle]

Don't even talk to me about the 5-spd/V-6 Honda combo from MY 1999-2003 found in the Odyssey, Type-S, and Accords. Those trannys were known to last all but 60K miles before they needed a replacement, which is probably why Honda didn't balk at replacing it for free because they know damn well what they were up against. A good friend of mine had a CL Type-S, and at 89K or so that transmission was slipping as if there were no tomorrow.

 

So of course OTHER manufacturers step up........having to replace a transmission here and there vs. a massive recall makes a big difference.

 

 

Honda's had a huge problem with their v6 transmissions. They have extended the warranty until 110k miles-it was 100k. From what I understand if it has not messed up by then, it will not be a problem. All the transmissions that have been replaced are being done so with updates. It is not expected to be a recurring problem.

 

I have had a friend of mine need two transmissions in his no sold explorer. Pretty reliable vehicle besides that but the point being is that should not of happened. When you think chrylser you think transmission problems even though their new stuff is built to a much higher standard.

 

Perception is not reality in many cases but the domestics have not done as good of a job as the imports building a quality vehicle...especially in the interior pieces where stuff wears out way to early. The new coming out of detroit has for the most part addressed those concerns but it will take years before the consumer puts trust in that brand (if ever)especially if they have had previous problems.

 

We can debate all we want here but no one can deny ovaltine has some pretty pissed off friends that will probably never buy a ford vehicle again.

[Ovaltine]

I just did the math, and the savings from Mark Fields little flights ($26 mil annual private jet - $31k annual commerical class ticket) would provide $1,000 assistance to 2,569 owners of Ford's experiencing catastrophic failure.

 

And THAT'S just the savings from Mark's jet being taken away!

 

And one more point... I keep reading about how vehicles from the other brands suck just as bad in different ways, which may be true, but the bottom line is: Those manufacturers AREN'T hemorrhaging losses like Ford is! Whether Ford's no worse isn't the point here.... it's what they've got to do to restore the faith in their vehicles. Blowing off people experiencing major problems past their paltry 3 year warranty don't cut it in this day and age of the Korean bumper-to-bumper 60k / drivetrain 100k warranties!

 

Look at the examples given about the Honda trannys being replaced at 100k given above. Did they *have* to do it? No! But they *knew* that they couldn't afford the bad press and owner resentment if they didn't. The old adage "Penny-wise, and pound-foolish" comes to mind here.

 

-Ovaltine

 

 

P.S. Here's the data from the Steve Wilson article I used to calculate the private jet costs. I chose the mid-range value.

 

"The eleven-hundred-mile, two-and-a-half hour, one-way trip from Detroit to Boca Raton in a Gulfstream-5? It’s not cheap at $7,000 an hour but then, add in the costs of the crew and their weekend meals and lodging expenses at what is said to be a luxury Palm Beach area hotel, and then the costs to fly Fields back to Detroit Sunday night?can it be $70,000 a week or more? It certainly can when the jet makes two trips to Florida, one to drop him off in another to go back and pick him up?

 

A Ford insider claims he’s seen paperwork that says it’s 50-grand a week but it’s unclear what’s not included in that number. Ford claims—but refuses to document—that the flights cost about $30,000 a week. At any rate, it certainly could be the cost of one worker’s job every week Fields flies home. "

Edited January 31, 2007 by Ovaltine

[Hydro]

I'm curious, Let's say his friends go to another company and they also experience problems. Do you think they'll be saying the same bad things about that company? Or is it too easy to have a problem with a Ford vehicle and write them off forever because that's what their friend or neighbor did? It seems whenever people have problems with other companys they just accept it and go on with their day (for the most part), but when it's a Ford "oh my God what a POS, they'll never get me business again!!"

[68fastback]

I just did the math, and the savings from Mark Fields little flights ($26 mil annual private jet - $31k annual commerical class ticket) would provide $1,000 assistance to 2,569 owners of Ford's experiencing catastrophic failure.

 

And THAT'S just the savings from Mark's jet being taken away!

 

And one more point... I keep reading about how vehicles from the other brands suck just as bad in different ways, which may be true, but the bottom line is: Those manufacturers AREN'T hemorrhaging losses like Ford is! Whether Ford's no worse isn't the point here.... it's what they've got to do to restore the faith in their vehicles. Blowing off people experiencing major problems past their paltry 3 year warranty don't cut it in this day and age of the Korean bumper-to-bumper 60k / drivetrain 100k warranties!

 

Look at the examples given about the Honda trannys being replaced at 100k given above. Did they *have* to do it? No! But they *knew* that they couldn't afford the bad press and owner resentment if they didn't. The old adage "Penny-wise, and pound-foolish" comes to mind here.

 

-Ovaltine

P.S. Here's the data from the Steve Wilson article I used to calculate the private jet costs. I chose the mid-range value.

 

"The eleven-hundred-mile, two-and-a-half hour, one-way trip from Detroit to Boca Raton in a Gulfstream-5? It’s not cheap at $7,000 an hour but then, add in the costs of the crew and their weekend meals and lodging expenses at what is said to be a luxury Palm Beach area hotel, and then the costs to fly Fields back to Detroit Sunday night?can it be $70,000 a week or more? It certainly can when the jet makes two trips to Florida, one to drop him off in another to go back and pick him up?

 

A Ford insider claims he’s seen paperwork that says it’s 50-grand a week but it’s unclear what’s not included in that number. Ford claims—but refuses to document—that the flights cost about $30,000 a week. At any rate, it certainly could be the cost of one worker’s job every week Fields flies home. "

 

The real question, imo, isn't the cost of a jet. That money may very well be spent better giveing Fields a way to travel when he needs to -- really.

 

The issue to my mind is whether it's prudent to set alegal precedent to routinely accept warranty burden for out-of-warranty failures. Granted 3-years is short -- they knew that when they bought the car. If there's a problem pattern for a specific failure that Fords deems is statistically way out of wack (like teh Honda trannys) then I say, fine, extend coverage to some rasonable point to embrace those failures if doing so will materialy benefit the good name of the business (wherever that line may be).

 

But Mark Fields jet is irrelevant. Maybe we should change the plant roof-mintenance schedule and pay for it that way <lol> or take $2.83 cents per week out of the salary of the employees of the supplier of the parts -- also irrelevant.

 

Imo, the crux is what's reasonable and legally preserves the manufacturers rights to defend other warranty claims that are statistically 'in-bounds' if you catch my drift. Notice, in Honda's situation, they did not open the floodgate on warranty claims, they merely slightly extended the warranty window a bit -- that legally preserves their rights.

 

Funny, if you listen to Click & Clack on Nat. Public Radio, there seem to be far few callers with big-3 problems! Not sure why that is -- seems most of the problems are VW, Audi, Honda, Toyota, and Subarus (not necessarily in that order. Maybe they're just more likely to be car-clueless and need to air their problems on the radio -- dunno, but it's interesting.

 

Just my $.02

 

-Dan

Edited January 31, 2007 by 68fastback

[Michael Reynolds]

So where do you draw the line with circumstances like these? Aside from the one case, are these WELL DOCUMENTED cases of failures on the Ford branded vehicles mentioned above?

 

For every horror story there are just as many consumers that have surpassed the 3/36 warranty and have had their problems resolved. I also could have sworn that new Ford vehicles going forward now have a 5/60 powertrain warranty. Which goes over and beyond most full line auto manufacturers.

Edited January 31, 2007 by Michael Reynolds

[NickF1011]

I also could have sworn that new Ford vehicles going forward now have a 5/60 powertrain warranty. Which goes over and beyond most full line auto manufacturers.

 

5-year/70,000 mile powertrain only. Still better than most competitors. Course, you're out of luck if your vehicle isn't an '07.

[68fastback]

5-year/70,000 mile powertrain only. Still better than most competitors. Course, you're out of luck if your vehicle isn't an '07.

 

..and retro-active, I believe, on all '06 models that had already shipped -- plus 24/7 curbside assist, if I recall.

[Ovaltine]

Funny, if you listen to Click & Clack on Nat. Public Radio, there seem to be far few callers with big-3 problems! Not sure why that is -- seems most of the problems are VW, Audi, Honda, Toyota, and Subarus (not necessarily in that order. Maybe they're just more likely to be car-clueless and need to air their problems on the radio -- dunno, but it's interesting.

 

Dan.... I *think* you answered your question above using 3 well known letters -- N, P, and R.

 

NPR listeners probably aren't the biggest consumers of mainstream Big 3 products.

 

They usually look like the following examples:

 

 

(Note: All the photos above are NPR listeners or speakers)

 

:lol:

 

-Ovaltine

Edited January 31, 2007 by Ovaltine

[Ovaltine]

5-year/70,000 mile powertrain only. Still better than most competitors. Course, you're out of luck if your vehicle isn't an '07.

Unless things have changed since last July, here's the info about the current warranties from the horse's mouth.

 

It looks like only Lincoln benefits from the 6yr/70k miles powertrain warranty. Fords and Mercs get the 5yr/60k miles powertrain warranty. Bumper-to-bumper is still left at 3 years.

 

 

http://media.ford.com/newsroom/feature_dis...m?release=23458

 

America's Car Company

 

Effective July 14, the powertrain limited warranty for 2007 Ford and Mercury vehicles will be five years or 60,000 miles, whichever comes first. That's an additional two years or 24,000 miles of coverage for such components as the engine and transmission beyond each vehicle's three-year or 36,000-mile bumper-to-bumper limited warranty.

 

For Lincoln, the powertrain coverage is now extended to six years or 70,000 miles - two years or 20,000 miles beyond the basic four-year or 50,000-mile bumper-to-bumper warranty. For all three brands, there are no deductibles for repairs, and the warranties are fully transferable to future owners at no cost.

 

-Ovaltine

[NickF1011]

Unless things have changed since last July, here's the info about the current warranties from the horse's mouth.

 

It looks like only Lincoln benefits from the 6yr/70k miles powertrain warranty. Fords and Mercs get the 5yr/60k miles powertrain warranty. Bumper-to-bumper is still left at 3 years.

 

 

http://media.ford.com/newsroom/feature_dis...m?release=23458

 

America's Car Company

 

Effective July 14, the powertrain limited warranty for 2007 Ford and Mercury vehicles will be five years or 60,000 miles, whichever comes first. That's an additional two years or 24,000 miles of coverage for such components as the engine and transmission beyond each vehicle's three-year or 36,000-mile bumper-to-bumper limited warranty.

 

For Lincoln, the powertrain coverage is now extended to six years or 70,000 miles - two years or 20,000 miles beyond the basic four-year or 50,000-mile bumper-to-bumper warranty. For all three brands, there are no deductibles for repairs, and the warranties are fully transferable to future owners at no cost.

 

-Ovaltine

 

 

My mistake.

 

Not that I really care much anymore. I doubt a new Ford vehicle will be in my future anytime soon. And no, neither will a Kia or Hyundai.

[Roadrunner]

..and retro-active, I believe, on all '06 models that had already shipped -- plus 24/7 curbside assist, if I recall.

 

I need to look into that, because I think my '06 Fusion -- which was purchased exactly the day before they extended the warranty -- is not covered.

[Michael Reynolds]

I need to look into that, because I think my '06 Fusion -- which was purchased exactly the day before they extended the warranty -- is not covered.

 

The salesperson, sales manager, or finance manager should have at least mentioned something about that b4 having you sign. Oh wait they were too busy drooling over your money.

[thirdmust]

I like my 98 Mustang so much that even after doing $6,700.00 damage in an accident I am still having it repaired. All out of pocket.

Edited February 1, 2007 by thirdmust

[68fastback]

I need to look into that, because I think my '06 Fusion -- which was purchased exactly the day before they extended the warranty -- is not covered.

 

It should be covered but you won't receive an updated Mulrooney sticker or paperwork -- I was told that by someone on stangs unleashed who checked into it on his mustang delivered before June'06.... it even applies to Crown Vics etc. but I don't know if the warranty procedure is any diff with the dealer. I do remember that the the retroactive part did have a difference with one of the features of the extended waranty, but it wasn't duration of coverage... good luck!

 

-Dan

[partsisparts]

I tried to do the same type of commentary/survey Ovaltine did on Ford products using Kia as an example. The problem is I can't find a Kia from 1997 to 2003 still on the road.

[Ovaltine]

I tried to do the same type of commentary/survey Ovaltine did on Ford products using Kia as an example. The problem is I can't find a Kia from 1997 to 2003 still on the road.

 

Trust me.... you don't have to look too hard to find vehicle horror stories for Hyundai / KIA pre-2004. I've never tried to assert that any super premium product was being produced by them during that era.

 

But... the problem there is, the numbers of sales of H/K were so miniscule back then, that the clunkers didn't add up enough to create the critical mass necessary to completely torpedo the brands. Sure... their overall reputation sucked, but not enough people had even seen or ridden in an H/K product (or know someone who owned one) that people could form their own opinion. Thus, when the product quality actually started to be delivered and reported on AND the pricing and content was right, *bang*.... these brands are technically considered "new" and an option for a purchaser's consideration. The success of the 60k and 100k warranties thrown on the hood of these vehicles can't be ignored either. Evidence of the success of that approach has become obvious with the Ford and GM warranty upgrade announcements over the last 6 months.

 

Ford, GM, etc. on the other hand are brands that EVERYONE and their relatives (traditionally) has had experience with in this country, so any baggage created in the past decades tends to be more visible, reported, and unfortunately remembered. Any declines in quality, styling, features, dealership experience, price competitiveness, etc. by the Big 3 were much more visible due to the nature of higher sales volumes. That's the down side of success.... there's *usually* only one place to go...... down.

 

So to summarize, putting fairness and reporting accuracy aside, the perception of domestic Big 3 vehicles is what is going to have to be changed for the buying public to put them on the 'A' list again. Unfortunately, that may require some expertly selected superhuman and expensive measures to "jumpstart" the American public's awareness to recent increases in quality, performance, and affordability.

 

I think the recent Car and Driver ads on TV by Ford comparing (favorably) the Ford Fusion to the competitors is an example of what I'm talking about. The increase in warranty is another.

 

An ad campaign touting how the dealership body has been brought to heel, accompanying some major customer butt kissing by said dealers will be another "leg of the stool".

 

The initial point of this thread was to introduce the concept of another "front" that Ford can attack, which is the removing of the bad taste(s) left in the mouths of recent product purchasers who (in my observation) are NOT going to be very positive "pitchman" for the brand.

 

-Ovaltine

Edited February 1, 2007 by Ovaltine

[NickF1011]

Ford's got to have a record of all these pissed off customers somewhere. Perhaps they should start a mailing campaign in which they offer a humble apology and offer them $500 in additional discounts on any new Ford product, or a $50 gift card if they even make the effort to come test drive a new vehicle.

 

A little humility can go a long way.

[partsisparts]

I think we are all missing something with these long term high mileage warranties. The warranty comes with the car...yes, but, the price of the warranty is built into the base price of the car. The cars would be the cheaper by the price of the cost factor of the warranty. Therefore a $14000 Hyundai may be $13100 without the 10?/100K warranty. The down side is, if you do not use it you already paid for it.

I think going a little conservative with the terms 5/60k and giving people a choice whether to purchase, or not is a good call made by Ford. It gives Ford an improvement to sell, and gives the consumer a sense of quality. And doesn't raise the price of the car as much as a longer term warranty. Now if you want the same coverage, you may purchase it with the car. Every Ford has an optional 100K warranty and 6 yrs. Being that most people change cars way before that, the 6yr term is not a factor to most people.

It also keeps the dealers quiet. The GM dealers must be screaming at GM for taking a lot of profit out of thier stores. Sometimes the dealer makes more money on the extended warranty than they do on the car!

I know why every one seems to blast Ford for not going with a 10yr/ 100k warranty. This may be the reason Ford decided not to do it. Lower price and choice. Just my 2 cents. :stats:

Edited February 2, 2007 by partsisparts

[RichardJensen]

Ford's got to have a record of all these pissed off customers somewhere. Perhaps they should start a mailing campaign in which they offer a humble apology and offer them $500 in additional discounts on any new Ford product, or a $50 gift card if they even make the effort to come test drive a new vehicle.

 

A little humility can go a long way.

apology = admission of guilt = grounds for lawsuit.

 

That's why you never see specific apologies for suable stuff.

[NickF1011]

apology = admission of guilt = grounds for lawsuit.

 

That's why you never see specific apologies for suable stuff.

 

Well I never said anything about being specific. Perhaps just a general sorry for disappointing "America"