suv_guy_19 Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 Yes, the current Accord has "only" 240hp, but we also know that a brand new Accord is right around the corner and I can pretty much guarantee that if the past is any indication of how Honda will react to the market the next gen Accord is going to probably have the same hp as the competition, albeit with a smaller, more rev-happy engine. So, if Ford bumps the Fusion up to 240hp for 2008, I bet the 2008 Accord has 260+, then there'll be the new Malibu with >250hp and Aura the same. So who does that leave? With 240hp Ford will be in the lower end of the market against Hyundai (235hp), DCX (235hp), and maybe some other stragglers. I know we can defend it as Ford fans all we want, but the fact is that's a poor showing for a midsize V6 FWD sedan in this market. If the 3.0 got better mileage than the competition I could see it working in this market, but the fact that the competition is getting better mpg AND power out of their larger V6's really hurts this argument. I woundn't necessarily agree. Honda does not try to be a horsepower leader. Its quite evident in the crv as well as their atv's and boat motors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 Ooops, sorry, wrong answer, you'll have to settle for the blender! 240hp is where the Accord is NOW. It's about to get replaced, and does anyone believe Honda won't turn up the wick a bit? For that matter, isn't the single most consistent whine on this board that Ford targets the competition where they are, and not where they're going? 3.5 for the Fusion, preferably by Thursday. Oh. So the 263hp 3.5L engine in the Fusion means what for you people? less than Camry less than (allegedly) the Accord, less than the Altima, blah blah blah. Less than all the cars you so frequently say the Fusion must exceed. So where does the 3.5 get you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 Oh. So the 263hp 3.5L engine in the Fusion means what for you people? less than Camry less than (allegedly) the Accord, less than the Altima, blah blah blah. Less than all the cars you so frequently say the Fusion must exceed. So where does the 3.5 get you? It at least puts you in the ballgame. Right now the Fusion is warming the bench with its 221 horsepower. And Igor, I'll believe the GTDI 2.0 with 260+ HP when I actually see it on the option sheet. I'm not really so disappointed with what I think the Fusion will eventually become as I am just disappointed that Ford could have made it so much better from the get-go, without having to add all of these band-aids down the road to address the vehicle's shortcomings that never should have existed in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 What's the biggest room in the world? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 What's the biggest room in the world? The Five Hundr---eerrrr Taurus's trunk? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 Room for improvement. The Fusion is fine as is, and will get better. Likely not to some of the rather extreme opinions on this board, but better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 Room for improvement. The Fusion is fine as is, and will get better. Likely not to some of the rather extreme opinions on this board, but better. Room for improvement. Now there's an understatement. Ford will still be playing catch-up. Will the next Fusion be better? Certainly. Will it have everything to make it competitive with the newer competition on the market? Possibly. Ford still seems to be stuck in its old ways of benchmarking the current competition instead of trying to exceed it in any way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGallun Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 why do we need so much horsepower in a midsize sedan anyways? insurance will go up, gas will get worse etc... 220-240hp for this midsizers is perfect imho.. keep adding more its just gonna ruin the segment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 Room for improvement. Now there's an understatement. Ford will still be playing catch-up. Will the next Fusion be better? Certainly. Will it have everything to make it competitive with the newer competition on the market? Possibly. Ford still seems to be stuck in its old ways of benchmarking the current competition instead of trying to exceed it in any way. Actually, GM benchmarks more extensively than Ford. The Delta cars have solid beam rear axles because the GM team benchmarked the previous Jetta, and copied several suspension elements from it. As far as determining what is 'competitive', I really don't think that people here are giving the Fusion a fair shake: No one, for instance, takes the Camry to task for having less rear seat room than the previous generation--or for having a shallow rear seat cushion. No one takes the Camry or the Accord to task for not having AWD available. No one takes the Camry to task for its reliance on modest upgrades to its chassis resulting in a vehicle that is not substantially better than it's 1992 predecessor in driving dynamics. The reality is that Ford needs to keep Hermosillo running profitably with this product, the Milan and the MKZ, and they need to do research to determine what exactly those vehicles need in order to sell in the volumes they require. Ford needs, not to benchmark the competition, but to research consumer desires. Among people most likely to buy a Ford, what equipment is desired as standard, what as options, etc.? Those are the questions Ford should be asking--and if the answer comes back "a more powerful engine", then by all means, do it, but if sound research suggests that fuel economy is a stronger factor---then go that route. The bottom line is that you cannot gauge where the market is going exclusively by looking at the competition. At the same time that people here are clamoring for Ford to 'stop following' they are also clamoring for Ford to follow the rest of the industry in this hp race. What if the market has moved on? CAFE and fuel economy are going to be big news items, and studies reveal that this is a very important consideration for a lot of car buyers... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igor Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 or that the only way the Camry can handle decently is to add so much body reinforcement to the chassis, that there has to be a bracket between the trunk and the passenger compartment preventing ANY form of folding rear seats - (Camry SE) - something that I am still amazed NO media outlet pointed out .. . http://www.toyota.com/camry/models.html?s_...TN_CAMRY_MODELS Igor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biker16 Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 Room for improvement. The Fusion is fine as is, and will get better. Likely not to some of the rather extreme opinions on this board, but better. Fine as is? will it ever be the best? no thats what the mondeo is. the best in it's class. stop settling for good enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGallun Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 or that the only way the Camry can handle decently is to add so much body reinforcement to the chassis, that there has to be a bracket between the trunk and the passenger compartment preventing ANY form of folding rear seats - (Camry SE) - something that I am still amazed NO media outlet pointed out .. . http://www.toyota.com/camry/models.html?s_...TN_CAMRY_MODELS Igor new camrys handle like gunk, my frielnd has a nice new one, when he had his SVT contour he would fly around this off ramp at around 80mph.. rather tight turn... my fusion can do it safely around 75mph... his camry would be lucky to make that turn at 60mph lol.. body roll baby! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LincolnFan Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 Apprently 400HP V8 w/3-spd stick BOF RWD 200 inches long sedan isn't enough anymore for BOFers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 why do we need so much horsepower in a midsize sedan anyways? insurance will go up, gas will get worse etc... 220-240hp for this midsizers is perfect imho.. keep adding more its just gonna ruin the segment. Nobody really NEEDS a car over 90 horsepower, but people WANT it. Most people opt for the 4 cylinder engines, but the image you get from offering a high-power alternative does a lot for the effectiveness of your marketing. Something about "Most powerful in its class" resonates well with consumers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igor Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 (edited) Nobody really NEEDS a car over 90 horsepower, but people WANT it. Most people opt for the 4 cylinder engines, but the image you get from offering a high-power alternative does a lot for the effectiveness of your marketing. Something about "Most powerful in its class" resonates well with consumers. well I guess that will be the role of the GTDI ... :D I know you will not believe in it until you see it, but then you should not argue about this either .... you are arguing that the Fusion will not be powerful enough because you take one rumor as true and the other as not .. while they came from the same source .. we either do not know yet at all about any of the Fusion 09 engines, or we know of all 3 .. you cannot pick and choose and then run for 12 pages of a forum thread claiming that the most powerful engine will be a 240hp V6 ... it's either 221hp V6, or 260hp Turbo I4. PS: and as pointed out by Richard .. not the D35 . not anything else will make Fusion have the title of "most powerful in the class" with the Premium Tuned 306hp Altima. Igor Edited March 20, 2007 by igor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 (edited) no thats what the mondeo is. the best in it's class. How many legs does a dog have, if we call its tail a leg? Edited March 20, 2007 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 well I guess that will be the role of the GTDI ... :D I know you will not believe in it until you see it, but then you should not argue about this either .... you are arguing that the Fusion will not be powerful enough because you take one rumor as true and the other as not .. while they came from the same source .. we either do not know yet at all about any of the Fusion 09 engines, or we know of all 3 .. you cannot pick and choose and then run for 12 pages of a forum thread claiming that the most powerful engine will be a 240hp V6 ... it's either 221hp V6, or 260hp Turbo I4. PS: and as pointed out by Richard .. not the D35 . not anything else will make Fusion have the title of "most powerful in the class" with the Premium Tuned 306hp Altima. Igor I know I'm picking and choosing, but I'm just basing this all on Ford's past decisions. They haven't done anything in the past to correct problems like shortcomings in power so quickly. Until I see Ford actually executing plans to improve products quickly, I will remain skeptical. And as I pointed out before, I'm more disappointed with the CURRENT Fusion than I am with what it may become. Ford gave the current car a few big handicaps which may keep them from rectifying them in an acceptable manner with the refresh. Look at the new Taurus for example. Is it improved? Sure, vastly. Is it improved enough? Not enough close. Why is that? Because the Five Hundred sucked so badly that any improvements at all would be deemed "significant". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueblood Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 Oh. So the 263hp 3.5L engine in the Fusion means what for you people? less than Camry less than (allegedly) the Accord, less than the Altima, blah blah blah. Less than all the cars you so frequently say the Fusion must exceed. So where does the 3.5 get you? It gets you what everybody here is forgetting about, and the most important thing as well. A lot more torque, which makes the peak horsepower numbers less of an issue whether they are a few ahead or behind the competition. If Ford becomes the only player in this class with a 3.0L engine they will always be behind, and always be considered second class.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueblood Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 why do we need so much horsepower in a midsize sedan anyways? insurance will go up, gas will get worse etc... 220-240hp for this midsizers is perfect imho.. keep adding more its just gonna ruin the segment. !. The Fusion is slow. 2 The competition has bigger engines, which make more power, AND still get better fuel mileage. Ford can start selling cars at Wal-Mart if you'd like? It would certainly fit in with the image their cars have thanks to the "cheaper, mediocre is ok" mindset of Fords decision makers... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suv_guy_19 Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 It gets you what everybody here is forgetting about, and the most important thing as well. A lot more torque, which makes the peak horsepower numbers less of an issue whether they are a few ahead or behind the competition. If Ford becomes the only player in this class with a 3.0L engine they will always be behind, and always be considered second class.. Ford (just like honda) has never been a horsepower leader. It's not necessary. Why should so much power be necessary in a family car. Most people buy the I4. A recent study in Canada showed that fuel economy is the #1 concern. Power was somewhere around 15th I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueblood Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 well I guess that will be the role of the GTDI ... :D I know you will not believe in it until you see it, but then you should not argue about this either .... you are arguing that the Fusion will not be powerful enough because you take one rumor as true and the other as not .. while they came from the same source .. we either do not know yet at all about any of the Fusion 09 engines, or we know of all 3 .. you cannot pick and choose and then run for 12 pages of a forum thread claiming that the most powerful engine will be a 240hp V6 ... it's either 221hp V6, or 260hp Turbo I4. PS: and as pointed out by Richard .. not the D35 . not anything else will make Fusion have the title of "most powerful in the class" with the Premium Tuned 306hp Altima. Igor If Ford did put a turbo 2.0L in the Fusion it still wouldn't be class leading in power, not even close, especially in torque, and it wouldn't get good fuel mileage either, just look at the terrible numbers the CX-7 gets. So a 15 mpg Fusion 4 banger is competitive against 270-280+ horse V6's that get 30 mpg on the highway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueblood Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 Ford (just like honda) has never been a horsepower leader. It's not necessary. Why should so much power be necessary in a family car. Most people buy the I4. A recent study in Canada showed that fuel economy is the #1 concern. Power was somewhere around 15th I think. Well the best selling cars in the class offer much more power, so that's why.. And Ford is using a barely improved old engine from the 96 Taurus, yuck.. Hell, why not just put a 60 horsepower 3 cylinder in the thing then? Who needs more power than that to haul the family around? This mediocre religion at Ford is taking them to the grave, I don't think some people will ever get it. We don't need to be competitive in power.. We don't need to be competitive in interior quality We don't need to be competitive in technology We don't need to be competitive in available options After all, Wal-Mart is doing great selling shit, why can't Ford do the same?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igor Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 (edited) If Ford did put a turbo 2.0L in the Fusion it still wouldn't be class leading in power, not even close, especially in torque, and it wouldn't get good fuel mileage either, just look at the terrible numbers the CX-7 gets. So a 15 mpg Fusion 4 banger is competitive against 270-280+ horse V6's that get 30 mpg on the highway? so we ALREADY know it is 15mpg? the fact that DISI23 did not get good mileage in an SUV and AWD Sedan does not mean the D20GTDI will be the same .. there is a reason Ford did not go with the DISI23 ... this might be one of them .. but I guess you already have your mind set .. if it is not Mondeo or D35 Fusion it will be a failure .. even if you have to MAKE UP the reasons. how about we wait for the actual numbers or more precise rumors? Ford now we barely have the fact that these engines exist. and if you lookup MY posts, you will see that I TWICE said that Ford NEED both the D30PIP and the D20GTDI to get 30mpg by the new EPA tests .. if they will not, this engine lineup is suboptimal. Igor Edited March 20, 2007 by igor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 (edited) We don't need to be competitive in power.. We don't need to be competitive in interior quality We don't need to be competitive in technology We don't need to be competitive in available options If Ford fixed all the supposed Problems with the Fusion We still find something else to bitch about the Fusion.... Is that what this place is all about? a Bitch and Whine fest about how "WE" feel Ford should be run, based on our own little needs and wants? When our needs and wants aren't what the vast majority of people who buy Ford products are? The vast majority of bitching on here is over bench racing numbers.... Remember the saying: You can't please everyone. Another saying: The perfect is the enemy of the good. Edited March 20, 2007 by silvrsvt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 I constantly find myself day dreaming when taking my morning commute to work. WOW..if only I had 325 horsepower, THAT would be terrific in this 10 mph bumper to bumper...come on guys ...everyone is acting like the Fusion should be Fords flagship performance model...maybe down the road we will see some typ of pedestal model, but right now it serves it's purpose trmendously, and hopefully gives a glimpse of good things to come... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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