GM Building a Cadillac V12 Sedan

[RichardJensen]

I've seen the XLRs and that's just one man's opinion. I find them to be gaudy excesses: overly starched corvettes with hideous headlights.

 

There's another man's.

 

Oh, and as for the 'at least Cadillac is trying' argument, see above: Trying is not the same as succeeding. If GM thinks they can sell a $90k Zeta sedan, I have a lovely bit of property on the West River Riviera I'd be happy to sell them (West River Riviera = prime real estate alongside the Midland settling ponds--lots of sunshine, and with a westerly wind almost no smell at all!)

[PolarBear]

OTOH, when it comes to dollars and cents, Lincoln is profitable on a per unit basis. More so than Cadillac, which is still amortizing $5B plus in investments earlier this decade.

 

Yeppers- the only real disagreement we have on these boards. Ford threw $12-20 billion down that fiscal black hole called Jaguar, while letting it's domestic nameplates languish. GM took Cadillac, spent a fraction of that sum, and is well on the way of a turnaround. Time will tell who was right.

Edited March 22, 2007 by PolarBear

[jpd80]

I've seen the XLRs and that's just one man's opinion. I find them to be gaudy excesses: overly starched corvettes with hideous headlights.

 

There's another man's.

 

Oh, and as for the 'at least Cadillac is trying' argument, see above: Trying is not the same as succeeding. If GM thinks they can sell a $90k Zeta sedan, I have a lovely bit of property on the West River Riviera I'd be happy to sell them (West River Riviera = prime real estate alongside the Midland settling ponds--lots of sunshine, and with a westerly wind almost no smell at all!)

 

Lutz has more guts than a wood duck.

 

GM is doing the complete opposite of sensible with this car, no one in their right mind would even consider putting a V12 into an up market Zeta and shoving it out the door as a Cadillac.

Preposterous!.... ridiculous!.... It will never sell!....There's too much profit......

No one is that stupid.....No one wants a V12.....Not for $90K....Not even a test drive.....

Not that it looks bad........Not another American car like it.......Not too many will buy...

Where do I sign.

Edited March 22, 2007 by jpd80

[Hemiman]

Good job Caddy! Thank you Bob!

[DCK]

With the new products in the showroom and on the way, I wouldn't say lincoln has given up. Theres nothing wrong with lincolns being based on fords. It seems to work for others.

Finally after 6 years of abandonment, only now is Ford eveninvestig in them and it took new management before they even decided that it would be best to give Lincoln new sheetmetal. Yeah Lincoln did give up, they know they know it would require a lot of hard work, great design and innovative products to compete against European luxury, Lexus, Infiniti, and Cadillac. So they won't even try, They gave up instead they will take the easy road out and put some leather on Fords and BS that they are going for a "Different audience" an audience that doesn't require them to compete? You say it works for others? Who? Lexus may have some off toyotas but they get complete new sheetmetal and powertrains and they have a full range of Lexus only vehicles. Acura does succeed but no one really considers them true luxury and Acura has a sporty styling and tuning. You have tons of people in their 20's and early 30's going for acura.............what is lincolns average buying age 70+

[silvrsvt]

what is lincolns average buying age 70+

 

 

The MKZ/Zephyr have been bringing in a younger audience to Lincoln.

[Hemiman]

-Develop a new V12 based on the Duratec 35... 7.0L on the dot

-Apply TT tech, with about 750 reliable horsepower

 

-Give to Jaguar for Regular Production run XJ12 and XK12

 

This is what Ford should do with Jag. While I like the Idea of Caddy becoming world class, I think Jag could pull this off much more easily.

Edited March 22, 2007 by Hemiman

[old_fairmont_wagon]

Jag has more recent heritage with a V-12 then Caddy (though, I do believe Caddy has used them in the distant past). I'd freaking love to see a v12 Jag. There's no way I'll ever be able to afford it, but, given the competition that Jag faces, a V12 may be just the cachet that it needs. Though, I'd do things a bit differently...

 

Jag gets the current duratec 6.0L V-12 from AM. That engine is plenty potent for Jag's uses.

AM gets a new v-12 developed from the D35 that clocks in at 7.0L

LR gets a new engine option for the RR sport, that same 7.0L V12 that AM uses, but with a longer stroke (making it a 7.4L)

 

Eventually, if there is ever a new RWD Lincoln with a big enough engine compartment, I'd like to see Lincoln get a V12 in their flagship. The Lincoln version can be destroked version of the D35 based V-12 with a 6.6L displacement, and to make the economy numbers look good, they can shut down an entire bank of cylinders and go I-6 on the highway. This is just one of those pie-in-the-sky things since I doubt that Lincoln will ever have a vehicle worthy of such a lofty powerplant in the forseeable future.

[one2gamble]

Ford should be giving Jag a V12 but it has to have the goods. Direct Injection etc etc. Rover should also use this engine as the top of the line motor. Maybe throw on a blower for the "sport" models and now we are talking some fun. If Audi can slap a 500hp diesel in its SUV why cant Ford slap a Blown V12

[RichardJensen]

Yeppers- the only real disagreement we have on these boards. Ford threw $12-20 billion down that fiscal black hole called Jaguar, while letting it's domestic nameplates languish. GM took Cadillac, spent a fraction of that sum, and is well on the way of a turnaround. Time will tell who was right.

Documents on file at Companies House in Wales show a total investment in Jaguar, since 1990, of about $6-7B, give or take, including the purchase price. Jaguar is still a registered British corporation, and as such must make a complete accounting on a regular basis. This accounting has been available for all to see for the last 17 years, yet we persist in seeing overstated and wildly inaccurate remarks such as the above, coming from ANALYSTS who should know better.

 

The numbers you have thrown out are inaccurate.

[jpd80]

Documents on file at Companies House in Wales show a total investment in Jaguar, since 1990, of about $6-7B, give or take, including the purchase price. Jaguar is still a registered British corporation, and as such must make a complete accounting on a regular basis. This accounting has been available for all to see for the last 17 years, yet we persist in seeing overstated and wildly inaccurate remarks such as the above, coming from ANALYSTS who should know better.

 

The numbers you have thrown out are inaccurate.

 

Richard,

In past posts regarding 2006 Financial Result of PAG, I remember you saying something about Ford transfering money internally.

Are journalists confusing these transfers with acruing debt?

In British countries, it's common practise to switch money around to accentuate losses for increased tax deductions, the taxes being much higher in commomwealth countries than USA.

Edited March 22, 2007 by jpd80

[RichardJensen]

Actually, the analysts that you see reporting on Ford cover dozens of companies, and they simply do not have the time (or perhaps the knowledge) required to dig up Jag's financial results. Companies House is not like EDGAR and the SEC. You need to know exactly what you're looking for to find information.

 

So, at the risk of seeming uninformed, they spit-ball figures. The Times of London did an indepth piece a while back and actually summed the reported losses for Jaguar over the period of Ford's ownership, as well as capital infusions and came up with a total of, I believe something like £3.5B, which comes to around $6B estimating the aggregate rate of exchange, that goes to $7B when you factor in the purchase price.

 

Given that Jaguar was a deeply troubled operation when purchased--and an operation for which Ford overpaid, due to the (in hindsight, foolish) desire of Jaguar management to sell to GM, Ford's performance with it needs to be held up for one criticism: the mismanagement of the brand from c. 96-02 viz. the SType and XType, and the extremely ill-conceived attempt to turn Jaguar into a volume brand. This not only diluted the quality of Jaguar's core product, it diluted the cachet of the product as well.

[Roadrunner]

Nobody saw this coming - the upper lever iteration of a Zeta platform.

The beauty of the Zeta is its flexibility, the mid section, overhangs and the front rails are all able to be changed. In this case, the front rails can be extended to take a V12, something Holden engineers worked into the design. With clever sheetmetal, most buyers won't pick its heritage. It's only natural to assume this will be another all Holden effort. With a unique engine and with low production numbers, I'd expect Holden's Adelaide plant would build the Caddys down the LHD export Caprice line, a very simple solution.

 

Interesting addition.

 

Australia has smaller production overall, making it acceptable for a low-production car.

[grbeck]

With the new products in the showroom and on the way, I wouldn't say lincoln has given up. Theres nothing wrong with lincolns being based on fords. It seems to work for others.

 

But when the whole lineup consists of rebadged Fords...that's when the trouble starts. At least the "others" have flagship models that really do stand on their own (S-Class, 7-Series, Lexus LS) and lend luster to the cheaper models.

 

Lincoln has...the Town Car.

 

At least Cadillac is trying. Look at the 2008 CTS - GM definitely got that one right. If the next-generation STS, SRX and XLR represent as big an improvement over their first-generation designs as the CTS does over its predecessor, then Cadillac is definitely on the road to recovery.

[suv_guy_19]

But when the whole lineup consists of rebadged Fords...that's when the trouble starts. At least the "others" have flagship models that really do stand on their own (S-Class, 7-Series, Lexus LS) and lend luster to the cheaper models.

 

Lincoln has...the Town Car.

 

At least Cadillac is trying. Look at the 2008 CTS - GM definitely got that one right. If the next-generation STS, SRX and XLR represent as big an improvement over their first-generation designs as the CTS does over its predecessor, then Cadillac is definitely on the road to recovery.

 

 

That's alot of ifs. I don't really think that the new cts is all that great, unless you want to scare people. BMW is BMW, who do they share with, Mercedes would never take from chrysler because they are the controling brand.

[jpd80]

Lutz: Camaro Gear Could Spawn Big Caddy

 

A Cadillac with more than eight cylinders still possible, Lutz says.

by Joseph Szczesny (2007-02-25)

 

Could the same rear-wheel-drive platform General Motors Corp. plans to use for the new Chevrolet Camaro also be used for a new rear-wheel-drive and/or all-wheel-drive ultra-luxury Cadillac?

 

GM vice chairman and product guru Robert Lutz recently acknowledged it was a possibility during a conversation with journalists earlier this month at theChicago auto show.

 

Lutz noted that as part of global product strategy, GM would have fewer but more flexible platforms that would accommodate a wider range of vehicles and vehicle designs. Specifically, the new Camaro platform could be used for other vehicles. Lutz also hinted part of the reason for the delay in moving forward with the Camaro - it's now set to appear in 2009 - has been the need to extend the utility of the fundamental architecture so it could serve as the platform for other vehicles as well.

 

"What you've got to understand is that we've got this modular product architecture kit where we have two different lengths of center underbodies, two different lengths of front rails and two different lengths of rear overhang. So we can modify those elements any way we want. In the case of the Camaro, it's long short, short. If, for instance, we wanted to do a very large rear-wheel-drive Cadillac with more than eight cylinders you could do long, long, long," Lutz said.

 

"It's like a Lego set-you weld them together anyway you want," he added.

 

http://www.thecarconnection.com/Auto_News/...173.A11964.html

 

Anyone think Lutz hasn't already told the world what GM is doing?

 

Looks like an up market Zeta to me.

[Watchdevil]

Oh, and as for the 'at least Cadillac is trying' argument, see above: Trying is not the same as succeeding.

 

 

GM will succeed and kick some ass in the next few years. Ford on the other hand doesn't try... They just make empty promises... Hence almost every show car within the past several years but no production models... Ford is a LOOSER right now going the way of the Rambler if things don't turn around very soon.

 

The consesus of the naysayers around here seem to think we should be greatful for the new FrankenTaurus which is spawning the illustrious MKS next year which will be sought after by every person formerly known as a yuppie... Let's wait for the second coming of the Lord instead...

 

All I know is a Lincoln-Mercury dealer went out of business right accross the street from a thriving Cadillac dealer...

[Watchdevil]

Anyone think Lutz hasn't already told the world what GM is doing?

 

Looks like an up market Zeta to me.

 

If Ford was doing this basing a Lincoln off a similar flexible RWD platform you all would be pissing yourselves with joy... As it is all we can hope for is Shelby GT-500 powertrain in the old Town Clown...

 

The damned truth is many of you can't stand the fact that GM has started to turn around and become better than Ford.

 

Blame Ford not GM for Ford not being competitive in the marketplace...

 

Long ago I left Ford because they didn't build anything I wanted. Looks like history is repeating itself...

Edited March 23, 2007 by Watchdevil

[Watchdevil]

Lutz has more guts than a wood duck.

 

Bill Ford has no guts.

Edited March 23, 2007 by Watchdevil

[LSFan00]

Isn't the STS a "gussied up buick?" I thought I heard that somewhere and laughed.

[kpc655]

V12 caddy? seems like a good idea. they need a big new project to focus on. when was the last time GM had a v12 in production?

 

Ford's 6.0V12 isnt too bad, its the same idea just two duratecs jammed together. They ought to build a big super luxury lincoln with that thing..even if its just a show car. focus the brand a bit.

 

The gT must have been a disappointment to Ford. it sold well at first, but with all the quality issues and corporate problems, there are still unsold new GT's out there today. Maybe they'll get down to my price range!

 

Cheers

[NickF1011]

V12 caddy? seems like a good idea. they need a big new project to focus on. when was the last time GM had a v12 in production?

 

Ford's 6.0V12 isnt too bad, its the same idea just two duratecs jammed together. They ought to build a big super luxury lincoln with that thing..even if its just a show car. focus the brand a bit.

 

The gT must have been a disappointment to Ford. it sold well at first, but with all the quality issues and corporate problems, there are still unsold new GT's out there today. Maybe they'll get down to my price range!

 

Cheers

 

The LAST thing Ford needs now is another stunning concept that won't see the light of day in production.

 

As for the GT, it seems to have met its goals. They are still moving 100+ a month, which is pretty darn good for a $150K+ car after all and will likely dry up the remaining supply within a couple of months, with perhaps a few stragglers here and there. There aren't as many left unsold as you might think.

[old_fairmont_wagon]

The STS is a stretch of the CTS platform at present. You're thinking of the DTS, which is riding on the same platform as the Buick Lucerne. Its not as horrid as people think, but, its definitely no great shakes in the corners.

 

As for Ford in my book, they're in "prove it" territory with me now when they talk about their turnaround. On their current path, they might just be able to make the US operations break even, or get close enough to survive with their overseas profits. Trouble is, with the MOUNTAIN of debt that they've acrued to survive the short term, they will be behind on the balance sheets for the better part of a decade getting it all payed off. That means comparatively less money to reinvest in product, in efficiency improvements, in top flight executives, in pretty much anything in the business that could use some investment.

 

That's gonna make the long haul very shakey.

[JM.]

If the new CTS hints at the direction Cadillac is headed with all of its cars, I don't think they'll have much trouble selling the STS for much longer...Have to remember pretty much all the cars Cadillac currently has and is selling is their first attempt since the revitalization. I think it's ok to get things a little wrong, but now that the public is aware of Cadillac as a luxury player, it's time to knock everyone's socks off.

 

A V12 expensive a** car will be extremely hard to pull off. I don't know if the brand is ready for something like this, but maybe this will be their "halo" car that is made to draw attention to the brand instead of make profits.

 

...

 

I saw the new CTS at the Dallas autoshow last week and it is amazing! The body just seems so well put together, it makes the current gen CTS look awful. And what shocked me was there was a lot of people checking out the current CTS on the floor and sitting in it. I had to ask the Caddi rep if the CTS was a concept it looked so good.

[retro-man]

I haven't been too crazy about Cadillac's current design direction - that whole "Transformers" vibe to this so-called "Arts and Sciences" design theme. However, I do sense, feel, a certain vitality to the lineup. I don't know if it's the sporting tendency, offering manual transmissions and tight suspensions, the reaching toward the top with the re-skinned Vette, or what it is. But there's a certain vitality. And with somebody running around the back of the Mercedes studios hitting everything in sight with the ugly stick for the past several years, I think Caddy might even stand a chance of gaining in Europe, if they stay on their game - despite the quirky styling - which is being greatly refined and improved over time in any case.

 

Lincoln, in sorry contrast, is only the memory of past glory to me.

Edited March 24, 2007 by retro-man