GM Building a Cadillac V12 Sedan

[armadamaster]

And with that you proven yourself biased.

 

Their new truck interiors as leagues ahead of their previous interiors.

 

So I guess out of the three new trucks I sat in at the 2007 auto show, the two with creaky door panels were just mine and my friend's imagination. No arguments on the exterior I assume? The F-350 headlamps and Dodge Ram tailights just don't reel me in on the new GMC Sierras, nor do the lack of chrome or side mouldings on the bulk of the Silverados and SUVs. Well spent billion or so bucks that could have gone to a much more desperately needed car lineup overhaul instead of putting it on the back burner yet again.

 

Then you talk about FWD "junk" Last I checked the Aura won Car of the year and thenew malibu is around the corner. The new trucks improved their marketshare for the segment. GM has a set solid plan, everything so far at ford is always "maybe" "it's a possibility" or their favorite "We're still judging the market"

The only thing impressive on the Aura is the interior, all the new Saturns actually. What I did not like and continue to dislike about small-midsize cars in general is the difficulty of getting in and out of them. The Aura in particular has an annoying piece of plastic on the inside of the B-pillar that will stab you in the back or hip on the way out. As far as the trucks improving their marketshare, shame we can't say the same for the cars, I've noticed the current WImpala and Malibu filling the rental donkey gap left by the now defunct Taurus quite nicely.

 

GM put out great sedans and so did Ford with the Fusion. But Ford put out redesigns of the Explorer, Expedition and Escape that are all lackluster restyles at the very best and all carrying over sheetmetal because god forbid Ford invest in updating vehicles appearance like the competition does for a redesign.

 

Ford has blanded there entire lineup to death since 2000 with the exception of the Focus, which got blanded in the 2005 restyle. The Fusion, while not my cup of tea, was done nicely, yet the Five Hundread/Torea$$ is an abomination. GM has put out some great sedans, ions ago. The last really great sedan GM put out was the last generation B-body, and the F-body coupes til it was neglected to death in 2002. A 1995 Impala SS has better resale value than a 1995 Corvette. The rest of this FWD cookie cutter crap is fine as a supplement, but grossly insufficient in terms of a fully rounded product lineup, but the important thing is we have 15 different SUVs to choose from. Also, if this ongoing experiment with FWD has been such a success, why the name change game with the same old platforms to change perception of GM products? Why the shift back to RWD all of a sudden? Just rebadge and rename the W and G platforms some more in 2010. I don't see Toyota or Honda changing the names of the Camry or Accord anytime soon.

[Bagrah01]

OTOH, when it comes to dollars and cents, Lincoln is profitable on a per unit basis. More so than Cadillac, which is still amortizing $5B plus in investments earlier this decade.

 

Are you an accountant or just the ultimate spin doctor. I got it, you must be a politician. Never in my life have I read such a constant flow of bull come from any other place than the White House. You're so full of it, I assume you leave tracks when you walk.

[RichardJensen]

Are you an accountant or just the ultimate spin doctor.

Nope. I just disagree with you. No more, no less.

[DCK]

Well spent billion or so bucks that could have gone to a much more desperately needed car lineup overhaul instead of putting it on the back burner yet again.

 

I am not arguing that they were right to put the cars on the back burner in favor of trucks, I am saying the investments in their trucks paid off. I agree that cars should of been priority numero uno, but their trucks needed to be fixed to. Also I don't see them as putting cars on the back-burner, the Zeta was really the only thing that was and then in reality it never was.

 

The only thing impressive on the Aura is the interior, all the new Saturns actually. What I did not like and continue to dislike about small-mid size cars in general is the difficulty of getting in and out of them. The Aura in particular has an annoying piece of plastic on the inside of the B-pillar that will stab you in the back or hip on the way out.

I guess I am on of the few that think the worst thing about the Aura is its interior, IMO the car is fantastic and many Journalist tend to agree. But also IMO the interior is a disgrace, the fusion's interior is terrible also but not as bad the the Aura. The new Malibu has a down right stunning interior. Simply beautiful from the instrument cluster to the center stack to the doors. It is the Details because Details aren't Details, Detail make the product and the new Malibu interior is amazing.......build quality I have no idea though. Also GM is completely retarded by not offering Nav in the new Malibu. Someone needs to shoot the idiots making those decisions.

 

As far as the trucks improving their marketshare, shame we can't say the same for the cars, I've noticed the current WImpala and Malibu filling the rental donkey gap left by the now defunct Taurus quite nicely.

 

No one is denying the Malibu and Impala are fleet queens. But GM is cutting fleet numbers just as much if not more than Ford and that is without killing models. The next generation Malibu and later the Zeta Impala will cut their fleet numbers down considerably more than what they already have.

 

GM has put out some great sedans, ions ago.

I had to read that twice because the first time i skimmed it I read the Ion was a great sedan. lol

 

Why the shift back to RWD all of a sudden? Just re-badge and rename the W and G platforms some more in 2010. I don't see Toyota or Honda changing the names of the Camry or Accord anytime soon.

 

GM is venturing to find itself, it doesn't want to be boring Toyota and boring Honda they want they're vehicles to inspire like they did back in GM's prime. Ford seems to be okay chasing Honda and Toyota and aren't able to make any desicionthat is bold.

[VetteZ06]

The Aura's a very nice looking car. It and the Solstice are the best (exterior) styling efforts to come out of GM since (IMO) the '88 Cutlass Supreme Coupe.

 

Is this supposed to prove me wrong? It's not even worth the effort, Richard. You've made a reputation for yourself, and it's not going away any time soon. I expect nothing more from you.

 

As far as the rest of you and Watchdevil's balderdash...

 

People use this word?

 

...neither of you are objective either, and you're both fools if you think you are.

Uh-huh. Right. Richard (the king of objectivity and reason) thinks I'm filled with bias. Boo frikkidy hoo.

 

Everybody is biased Richard. Everybody. Some people, however, have the ability to see through their bias. You were not graced with this capability, and therefore you see the world in a different (read: skewed) way.

 

If you don't like what I say, ignore my posts, it's not hard.

 

I have a feeling this won't be the last time you say this.

[RichardJensen]

Some people, however, have the ability to see through their bias.

Uh-huh. If you could see ***completely*** through your bias, you would realize that personalizing this discussion does not advance your side of the argument.

 

But that's just my biased take on matters.

 

Oh, and feel free to spend more of this thread discussing me, instead of the topic at hand. I mean it's probably going to annoy other people, but don't let that stop you. I'm sure the smart ones will be able to see through their biases, and will most assuredly thank you for the service that you're performing. You know, putting me 'in my place', and all.

[LincolnFan]

But when the whole lineup consists of rebadged Fords...that's when the trouble starts. At least the "others" have flagship models that really do stand on their own (S-Class, 7-Series, Lexus LS) and lend luster to the cheaper models.

 

Lincoln has...the Town Car.

 

At least Cadillac is trying. Look at the 2008 CTS - GM definitely got that one right. If the next-generation STS, SRX and XLR represent as big an improvement over their first-generation designs as the CTS does over its predecessor, then Cadillac is definitely on the road to recovery.

 

The STS refresh already flopped. It looks like the refresh was done by Ford's old managment.

[RichardJensen]

That was no refresh. That was a whole new car.

[LincolnFan]

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/03/27/new-yor...-gets-a-revamp/

 

That's what I mean.

[RichardJensen]

Didn't see the article. They must've pulled it.

[Deanh]

this has dead duck written all over it and Zero common sense...which is great for Lincoln as long as they don't follow the same path. Lets see,, gas at all time highs, Bush seemingly declaring war to anybody he possibly can that needs bullying, and killing the economy in the interim...so what is Cadillacs answer?....a 12 cylinder gas guzzling 100k plus needless flagship????????? that appeals to .0005% of the over 70's market WHAAAAAAAAAAA?????????hmm, sorry Caddy, to justify THAT type of product one has to build a following and preceeding cars ( for instance the convertble...FAILURE )have a huge influence on that standing...typical of someone trying to be what they are not.....Lincoln could learn a LOT from this....DON"T create products that are priced way out of reach of a majority of the market, the more expensive the product the smaller the market is........but hey...if Cadillac wants to go ahead...go ahead...better for us......one less real competitor....

[jpd80]

It may be all the things you say but this is not a car for the ordinary sedan market. There are people out there prepared to pay for a beast like this and $70-90K for the wealthy is not a big stretch.

 

Here's the real kicker:

When Zeta was developed by Holden, they benchmarked it against the Mustang's design/fabrication, reputedly one of the cheapest.

I'd hate to think how cheap GM can knock out these Zeta derivatives' they can be built down an existing production line here in AUS.

 

You think the GTO was over priced? Wait till you see the helmet factor on this baby.

[RichardJensen]

$70-90K for the wealthy is not a big stretch.

No. The stretch is the name and heritage.

[VetteZ06]

Uh-huh. If you could see ***completely*** through your bias, you would realize that personalizing this discussion does not advance your side of the argument.

 

My "argument" has solely to do with you - how in the world can it be anything but personal? Besides, it's not really an argument; it's more like an observation. You possess the worst kind of bias, and that's the simple truth. What's there to argue about?

 

But that's just my biased take on matters.

This goes without saying. Why bother mentioning it?

 

Oh, and feel free to spend more of this thread discussing me, instead of the topic at hand.

 

You've already declared that the new V-12 sedan will be a failure, so apparently there's nothing left to discuss. Does it matter that none of us have the faintest idea what it looks like? I guess not.

 

I mean it's probably going to annoy other people...

You would know something about annoying people, eh? I should probably take your word for it.

 

You know, putting me 'in my place', and all.

 

Free of charge, Richard. Free of charge.

[Deanh]

It may be all the things you say but this is not a car for the ordinary sedan market. There are people out there prepared to pay for a beast like this and $70-90K for the wealthy is not a big stretch.

 

Here's the real kicker:

When Zeta was developed by Holden, they benchmarked it against the Mustang's design/fabrication, reputedly one of the cheapest.

I'd hate to think how cheap GM can knock out these Zeta derivatives' they can be built down an existing production line here in AUS.

 

You think the GTO was over priced? Wait till you see the helmet factor on this baby.

so why even attempt to go after a TINY market when you can't get it right for the "mainstream"???????? $$$$$$ market?????? This has ZERO sense....insane if you ask me....similar to Kia all of a sudden coming out with a 55k flagship...or wait a W12 VW Phateon.....case closed =0...... thankyou very much, next show at 9...

[Deanh]

do have to say that both the mid engine and Twelve concepts were gorgeous....just personally think Cadillac are reaching TOO high too fast....and producing either and venturing into markets rife with expensive Benz's, BMW's, Maseratis, Maybachs, upcoming 4 door porsches etc...is just setting them up for complete and utter failure......now, make the twelve an eight, drop pricing to perhaps high 70's...maybe...MAYBE they have something.....but they need to work on the reputation of their lower line models first....

[Deanh]

My "argument" has solely to do with you - how in the world can it be anything but personal? Besides, it's not really an argument; it's more like an observation. You possess the worst kind of bias, and that's the simple truth. What's there to argue about?

 

This goes without saying. Why bother mentioning it?

You've already declared that the new V-12 sedan will be a failure, so apparently there's nothing left to discuss. Does it matter that none of us have the faintest idea what it looks like? I guess not.

 

You would know something about annoying people, eh? I should probably take your word for it.

Free of charge, Richard. Free of charge.

Be nice boys or no watching Tractor Pulls Thursday night.....

[jpd80]

so why even attempt to go after a TINY market when you can't get it right for the "mainstream"???????? $$$$$$ market?????? This has ZERO sense....insane if you ask me....similar to Kia all of a sudden coming out with a 55k flagship...or wait a W12 VW Phateon.....case closed =0...... thankyou very much, next show at 9...

 

Steady Eddie,

I'm a Ford supporter like you and I don't really like the zetas, I just think GM have the unmitigated gall to charge $90K for a $50K car.

What seems insane to you and I make sense when you call it a luxury and chase after the over priced Euros.

 

Also remember Bob Lutz goes all the way with his ideas and they make a big splash - not one zeta has been sold in North America yet and look at the build up they are getting - kinda like the second coming. The cars are being hyped to infinity yet none of the press bothers to jump planes to Australia or the Middle East to drive examples.

I've driven LWB and SWB examples of the zetas, yes they drive nicely for US$30K to $45K but, are they worth $70K to $90K?

Edited March 28, 2007 by jpd80

[armadamaster]

I am not arguing that they were right to put the cars on the back burner in favor of trucks, I am saying the investments in their trucks paid off. I agree that cars should of been priority numero uno, but their trucks needed to be fixed to. Also I don't see them as putting cars on the back-burner, the Zeta was really the only thing that was and then in reality it never was.

 

One thing GM has done right til this newest gen is their trucks, I didn't care for the angry wasp front fascia done in 2003, but Ford and Dodge have blown theirs up so big you need a step ladder to get in and out of one, and their MPG are atrocious.

 

 

I guess I am on of the few that think the worst thing about the Aura is its interior, IMO the car is fantastic and many Journalist tend to agree. But also IMO the interior is a disgrace, the fusion's interior is terrible also but not as bad the the Aura. The new Malibu has a down right stunning interior. Simply beautiful from the instrument cluster to the center stack to the doors. It is the Details because Details aren't Details, Detail make the product and the new Malibu interior is amazing.......build quality I have no idea though. Also GM is completely retarded by not offering Nav in the new Malibu. Someone needs to shoot the idiots making those decisions.

No one is denying the Malibu and Impala are fleet queens. But GM is cutting fleet numbers just as much if not more than Ford and that is without killing models. The next generation Malibu and later the Zeta Impala will cut their fleet numbers down considerably more than what they already have.

Well, interior improvements are one thing I take particular notice of now since the interiors are mediocre at best in my 1991+ B-bodies, with the exception of the seats, the door panels and dashs are junk.

 

I had to read that twice because the first time i skimmed it I read the Ion was a great sedan. lol

GM is venturing to find itself, it doesn't want to be boring Toyota and boring Honda they want they're vehicles to inspire like they did back in GM's prime. Ford seems to be okay chasing Honda and Toyota and aren't able to make any desicionthat is bold.

 

Oops, for all about that hiccup the Ion, my grandfather bought a LS(?) new and racked up 180K low maintenance miles on it before it got totaled. My friend has a first year Vue and that little turd is pretty awful, I think the doors are made out of cardboard.

[Watchdevil]

Yeah. That's why I delete every post of yours that leaves me shaking my head and questioning your sanity (for instance, when you said that your own photochop of the 427 gives you an orgasm every time you look at it).

 

Are you so STUPID to believe that I actually have an orgasm when I look at my chop of the 427? Yes I like what I had done to it, but there is nothing wrong with using exaggerated expressions to describe my enthusiasm for it. You just don't think the concept itself was a good idea, therefore you insist on asserting your opinion to the point that you are satified that you have changed everyone's opinion to agree with yours.

 

Anyway, it's not surprising to see you look arrogantly down your nose at me as someone without valid reasoning and worthy of riducule... You have obviously made your point that I am stupid, ignorant or riduculous in some way or not as intelligent as you *think* you are because for example I loved the 427 concept as a Thunderbird coupe and you don't. Maybe you are prejudiced because I live in North Carolina where we are all ignorant toothless redneck trailer trash hillbillies. We can't possibly have enough intellect compared to some accountant from up north...

 

However, your reaction is just your insecurity that perhaps someone may value my opinion over yours... Of course you don't want to fall off your BON throne...

 

Truth is i was gifted at a very early age to understand mechanical and electrical things. People who don't know everything who are well educated have been coming to me for 20 years to help them get what they need and often they ask me how to do it. Doctors, Lawyers, Accountants, etc come to me to solve their problems. Because they cannot do it themselves...

 

My passion for automobiles is based on the beauty of visual art mixed with the understanding and appreciation of technical things, which itself is also beauty and art.

 

However the only thing you have proved with this post is that you are a control freak quick to point out to me and everyone else that YOU have the POWER to CONTROL and that by some grace of you the devine power of BON, we are all "allowed" by you to post here, but if anyone is to ever question your ability to moderate or contradict an opinion of yours, or state an opinion you don't wanna hear, you are quick to let everyone know that you have the power to control, edit, delete, whatever.

 

You have actually become the person that needs to be moderated.... Maybe you need to be dethroned. And if I get banned or deleted from posting this it just proves my point.

 

Your need for POWER and CONTROL is the only reason we have a moderator in the first place. I never had a problem with the Sheriff or the Lemon. I always knew where they were posting and I simply ignored them, let them have their free speech and did not care to read their threads.

 

 

Considering your post counts, you actually spend way too much time here. I wonder if you can actually do a competent job of accounting without this forum as an interference...

Edited March 28, 2007 by Watchdevil

[Deanh]

Steady Eddie,

I'm a Ford supporter like you and I don't really like the zetas, I just think GM have the unmitigated gall to charge $90K for a $50K car.

What seems insane to you and I make sense when you call it a luxury and chase after the over priced Euros.

 

Also remember Bob Lutz goes all the way with his ideas and they make a big splash - not one zeta has been sold in North America yet and look at the build up they are getting - kinda like the second coming. The cars are being hyped to infinity yet none of the press bothers to jump planes to Australia or the Middle East to drive examples.

I've driven LWB and SWB examples of the zetas, yes they drive nicely for US$30K to $45K but, are they worth $70K to $90K?

Hasn't worked in the slightest for any of their exported versions yet...what makes you think it will hange???? a sticker of $100k...hell, VW is ESTABLISHED and it didn't work for them...I say good on caddie, it is ballsy, but I DON"T...in fact I will go so far as to say I KNOW it won't work...and hopefully Lincoln will watch and learn that no matter what...certain nameplates should not go after certain market niches....

[Watchdevil]

Hasn't worked in the slightest for any of their exported versions yet...what makes you think it will hange???? a sticker of $100k...hell, VW is ESTABLISHED and it didn't work for them...I say good on caddie, it is ballsy, but I DON"T...in fact I will go so far as to say I KNOW it won't work...and hopefully Lincoln will watch and learn that no matter what...certain nameplates should not go after certain market niches....

 

Reading over at GMI its up in the air now whether there is validity to the story of there being a V12 Cadillac under development. Lutz recently stated a denial that Holden has anything to do with it. Perhaps that is the key though. Perhaps the program is still a go, its just Cadillac actually doing it themselves.

 

I think Cadillac does have the potential to make ultra luxury cars. A $100,000 Cadillac will find buyer acceptance more so than a VW Phaeton simply because a Cadillac represents the traditional American symbol of success. Cadillac will never do well in Europe but places where GM cars have traditionally been sold it may make an impact.

 

I dont think Cadillac will find any buyers over $100,000 and the majority of buyers it would have at $100,000 are entertainers and sports superstars. I doubt Cadillac will ever displace the snob appeal of a Rolls Royce but it can run with Mercedes and BMW. Cadillac has traditionally been about an obtainable symbol of sucess.

 

Anyway, I don't think it is a wrong move for Cadillac to bring out an top end luxury sedan like a Sixteen nor an exotic sports car like a Cien. It will be all about limited numbers of cars to boost the image of GM as a world contender. GM does a good job with the Corvette with world class performance. A car like the Cien would give Ferrari, Maserati, and other exotics a run for it's money and some extra profit for GM for having the greatest new thing.

[Deanh]

Reading over at GMI its up in the air now whether there is validity to the story of there being a V12 Cadillac under development. Lutz recently stated a denial that Holden has anything to do with it. Perhaps that is the key though. Perhaps the program is still a go, its just Cadillac actually doing it themselves.

 

I think Cadillac does have the potential to make ultra luxury cars. A $100,000 Cadillac will find buyer acceptance more so than a VW Phaeton simply because a Cadillac represents the traditional American symbol of success. Cadillac will never do well in Europe but places where GM cars have traditionally been sold it may make an impact.

 

I dont think Cadillac will find any buyers over $100,000 and the majority of buyers it would have at $100,000 are entertainers and sports superstars. I doubt Cadillac will ever displace the snob appeal of a Rolls Royce but it can run with Mercedes and BMW. Cadillac has traditionally been about an obtainable symbol of sucess.

 

Anyway, I don't think it is a wrong move for Cadillac to bring out an top end luxury sedan like a Sixteen nor an exotic sports car like a Cien. It will be all about limited numbers of cars to boost the image of GM as a world contender. GM does a good job with the Corvette with world class performance. A car like the Cien would give Ferrari, Maserati, and other exotics a run for it's money and some extra profit for GM for having the greatest new thing.

Possibly...but I have a little parrallel with Ford.....it's GT40 didn't exactly have people beating down the door.....and THAT is a superb car.....

[RichardJensen]

Possibly...but I have a little parrallel with Ford.....it's GT40 didn't exactly have people beating down the door.....and THAT is a superb car.....

People were beating down the door. But it was a limited edition car that was targeted at buyers with, shall we say, different priorities than the consumer of an $80k sedan.

[Deanh]

People were beating down the door. But it was a limited edition car that was targeted at buyers with, shall we say, different priorities than the consumer of an $80k sedan.

Richard...they WEREN"T knocking down the doors...the initial batch of just red cars just sat....when we sold our allocation of 2 we went hunting out of state and had NO problems...NOW on the other hand inventory is scarce....and human nature being what it is NOW the demand seems up...and yes agreed it is a different beast than a 90k car...but principle the same...a high line vehicle for the rich few....a terribly SMALL market...and to emphasize the point...we make more profit on Gt500's than the $160k GT.....bigger market with more potential buyers...

Edited March 28, 2007 by Deanh