OFFICIAL: Next Focus and Fusion on GLOBAL PLATFORMS

[pcsario]

Everyone is doing it already, including Toyota. There's nothing dangerous about doing it these days, there's hardly the huge size discrepancy between regions there was before.

 

Ford will start giving Lincolns unique sheetmetal because, well duh, they NEED unique sheetmetal to avoid the "rebadged POS" reputation. Ford doesn't, and it would be just a retarded way of wasting money on redundant things.

 

Richard just proved Lutz was right. He gave his best shot at describing "American" design, and while it was a respectful try, it's so vague it could apply to everything with grace. To me, he just described the Verve concept. Practical, Bold, Evocative.

 

 

Ditto about timeless classics from Europe and other parts of the world.

 

See, the thing no one gets, is that design is now a global thing, it's really no longer regional. If I had asked that same question to Richard just 10 years ago, all he would've needed to say is: "Europe=Conservative, American=Bold". That's no longer the case.

 

It used to be simple before. We all knew what american cars looked like in the 70's and before, how BMW's and Mercedes looked like, how Italian cars looked like, and so on. Now it's not a matter of adhering to a theme (boxy, jellybean,etc), just a mixture of styles baked together to create a new design language. Just look at the list of american biggest sellers (non-trucks). Most of those cars were done with a global focus. The only differences they've in other regions, are the same type of changes Ford is planning here.

 

Most of the advanced design work is done in California these days, with influences from every culture on Earth. Here, the Saturn Sky is considered proof that "american design" is still alive, yet in Europe it passes perfectly fine as a European design. So what gives? To me this is a matter of pride, and people refusing to admit times have changed.

 

As for the Edge --and I said the same thing when the Murano was launched-- it's just an oversized hatchback. Much like was the case in Europe, the evolution of the boxy shape. If J Mays hadn't left VW, that's what the profile and design of the new Golf would've looked like, only with a VW badge. To simply say "leave the S-Max to Europe, give us the Edge" is so funny I didn't even know what to say. Take a look at the stuff sold in Europe before uttering things like that. To assume we would've to choose one over the other is absurd. Just offer both. Stereotypes are fun, but not everything revolves around b-cars and trucks, there's quite a bit of common stuff in the middle, plus, global stuff like the Murano is also sold there.

 

How much did the Taurus/Sable facelift cost in '99/00MY? Around 300m a piece, add inflation and consider they were only minor retouches. Now, with that in mind, think about the total cost of adding new everythint to an already designed product, we would be back at square one. Redundancy and uneeded expenses, less resources available for the important stuff, etc. Do this for every car, and we would easily be talking about 2 billion a year. Twice the design budget, twice the focus group budget, twice the R&D spent on aerodynamic and wind noise fine tuning, etc.

 

This is about consolidating AS MUCH (not as little) as possible.

 

Finally, the only thing "Dave" has proven, is that Ford's strategy of a different front end for NA is right.

Edited August 25, 2007 by pcsario

[RichardJensen]

With all due respect, pc, I would never have said that European design was conservative. European design has not been conservative since the late 19th century; generally European design and artistic movements have been more iconoclastic than American movements. The reasons for this are somewhat speculative and certainly too complicated to go into here.

 

Also, the Verve (like a few other cars and plenty of other bits of industrial design--such as the iPod, and architecture--such as Frank Gehry), is well enough executed in the proper fashion to work both as an American design and as a European design.

 

Mark carefully that this is my opinion on the Verve.

 

It does not apply to the equally well executed Iosis, which is beautiful (except for the taillights), but which lacks certain characteristics that would make it more at 'home' as an American car built and sold by an "American" car company. The S-Max and Galaxy are not bold enough and the Kuga is too Avant Garde.

 

The problem with the Verve (the sole problem, as I see it) is that it doesn't quite fit into the near range of Ford's NA designs, nor does it really fit into any kind of Ford NA design language. This makes repositioning the Ford brand in NA with the Verve as it stands, more difficult.

 

But the Verve itself? It straddles the ocean quite well. Far better than any design that has come out of Cologne in recent memory.

 

However, it is exceptionally risky to 'bet' on consistently developing designs that will work as well in the U.S. as in the EU.

 

You do save -some- costs, but your downside risk is considerably higher.

 

Now as to the cost of facelifting the Taurus & Sable, the reality is that design takes time and retooling takes money; consider that no matter what, Ford will have to retool at least two plants to build any global C and CD sedans and CUVs; no matter what, they're going to be dumping a few hundred million into new tooling on the U.S. side. There's no real cost savings, except in designer time, in having the same sheetmetal on both sides of the Atlantic.

Edited August 25, 2007 by RichardJensen

[Deanh]

None of those sell in any significant volume. Even the 3-Series doesn't sell THAT many.

ahhh, not really my point...however...COMBINED they take up a fair bit of the pie.........

[Deanh]

????????????????????????

 

Ford sells more F150s than VW sells of everything combined.

 

Lincoln outsells Audi.

 

The 3 series isn't even the best selling entry-level luxury car, the Lexus is.

 

I mean you can total up all those cars that you listed, and still have room left over in the space occupied by the F-series.

 

----

 

And excuse me, but 'heavy handed' is an insult--One might just as well look at these puny flimsy Alfas as those heavy handed Super Duties.

 

I used neutral to positive language to describe both American and European design. You're the one who had to resort to value-biased language. The British born designer of the 427 concept car said that he didn't 'get' big American cars till he came to America.

 

Might I suggest that you spend some time driving from Yellowstone to Minneapolis on the old "Yellowstone Highway (U.S. 12) in a tightly sprung Mini before you continue to assert that European cars are 'better', or that European design is 'better.'

It's not. It's just DIFFERENT.

I never have assumed one is "better" than the other, I just see A LOT more constant "success" in the styling front from the Euro's than the States...and you keep putting the F-150 in the mix....its not relevent when in reality the Euros dont even have pickups...Lorrie's yes...completely different...the 427 wa a knockout...it DID have grace and elegance....we NEVER saw it...fusion is NOTHING like it, Supercheif....again...we NEVER saw anything like it, Cobra coupe? Intercepter?????......seems there is a trend here..... I can only hope Mullaly can change it....

Edited August 27, 2007 by Deanh

[RichardJensen]

ahhh, not really my point...however...COMBINED they take up a fair bit of the pie.........

And that's why I keep bringing up the F150.

 

'Combined' those imports don't equal the F150.

 

In fact I don't think they equal the Camry, certainly not the Camry & Accord.

 

----

 

As to the 'more consistent success' of 'European' designs, I cannot agree that either Ford's European studios are more consistently successful, nor can I agree that European designs in general are more consistently successful (you find me even two attractive German sedans today, and I'll give you a ... well some suitable reward for performing an impossible task)

[NickF1011]

(you find me even two attractive German sedans today, and I'll give you a ... well some suitable reward for performing an impossible task)

 

Eh, being a bit harsh here aren't we? And you very well know that's a matter of opinion. There are several German designs now that I find attractive...however, they don't have VW badges on them, that's for certain.

[suv_guy_19]

Eh, being a bit harsh here aren't we? And you very well know that's a matter of opinion. There are several German designs now that I find attractive...however, they don't have VW badges on them, that's for certain.

 

 

Audi A8/S8 and Mercedes CLS (I know its called a coup, so maybe I'm wrong) come to mind for me.

[NickF1011]

Audi A8/S8 and Mercedes CLS (I know its called a coup, so maybe I'm wrong) come to mind for me.

 

As much as it pains me to say this, even the Bangled BMW's have grown on me.

[suv_guy_19]

As much as it pains me to say this, even the Bangled BMW's have grown on me.

 

 

Truth be told, I feel the same way. I just wanted to leave that out. But hey, if your brave enough to say it, so am I, lol.

I still wouldn't buy (nor could I afford) a BMW. A little too stone boat like from what I've heard.

[NickF1011]

Truth be told, I feel the same way. I just wanted to leave that out. But hey, if your brave enough to say it, so am I, lol.

I still wouldn't buy (nor could I afford) a BMW. A little too stone boat like from what I've heard.

 

Eh, I'm pondering a 3-series for my next daily mode of transportation whenever I replace the Mazda6... At least my brother is a BMW service tech, so I have a mechanic on-call. :lol:

[suv_guy_19]

Eh, I'm pondering a 3-series for my next daily mode of transportation whenever I replace the Mazda6... At least my brother is a BMW service tech, so I have a mechanic on-call. :lol:

 

Well, maybe its just me, but another car that I find attractive is the new C class. It has an interesting look to it.

[Deanh]

And that's why I keep bringing up the F150.

 

'Combined' those imports don't equal the F150.

 

In fact I don't think they equal the Camry, certainly not the Camry & Accord.

 

----

 

As to the 'more consistent success' of 'European' designs, I cannot agree that either Ford's European studios are more consistently successful, nor can I agree that European designs in general are more consistently successful (you find me even two attractive German sedans today, and I'll give you a ... well some suitable reward for performing an impossible task)

where does a pickup come into a conversation about sucessful sales /design of coupes/ sedans? lost me there Rich sorry. 2 sedans...piece of cake....VW passat and mainly Jetta...alllllll OVER the place here, 3 series BMWs are as common as cell phones and quite commonly seen together. Audi A4...moving to more $, A6.....most people lease them so YES they ...because they can't afford the purchase.....and most purchase the Fusion.....350 a month is 350 a month....so what gets whom to buy what? design...check, potential status....check....styling...check....most impressive IMO of the aforementioned is the A4...not too jazzed on how they changed the headlights....but clean, handsome , no nonsense and with a little 1.8 turbo....kinda sounds like a recipe for the Fusion to emulate...the 09 w Turbo may do that...fingers crossed.

Edited August 28, 2007 by Deanh

[Roadrunner]

OR heres a doozie...why not just spec the car for the most stringent of the two countries and leave it at that....kinda like having Cal emissions on EVERY American car.....

 

On an environmental mindset, that is a good idea. It also helps Ford with the CAFE race.

 

But, on a consumer level: No way! - why restrict cars that won't ever enter Cali?

Ask the Kansan: Why should my truck have less power when I need that power to tow my horses?

Ask the Arizonan: Damn Californians are trying to have their way across my country!

Ask the other people: Aren't Cal emissions going to choke my car needlessly, as I won't need them for my state's regs?

 

So, I'm not sure on this.

 

When a "California car" is built, who makes the changes: the factory or the dealer?

[RichardJensen]

where does a pickup come into a conversation about sucessful sales /design of coupes/ sedans? lost me there Rich sorry. 2 sedans...piece of cake....VW passat and mainly Jetta...alllllll OVER the place here, 3 series BMWs are as common as cell phones and quite commonly seen together. Audi A4...moving to more $, A6.....most people lease them so YES they ...because they can't afford the purchase.....and most purchase the Fusion.....350 a month is 350 a month....so what gets whom to buy what? design...check, potential status....check....styling...check....most impressive IMO of the aforementioned is the A4...not too jazzed on how they changed the headlights....but clean, handsome , no nonsense and with a little 1.8 turbo....kinda sounds like a recipe for the Fusion to emulate...the 09 w Turbo may do that...fingers crossed.

You said the European sedans are successful. I said that I doubt the listed sedans fill the space the Camry occupies, let alone the Camry & Accord.

 

As far as German sedans--I don't consider any of what is on the road to be as good as what was on the road 15 years ago.

 

Or in Audi's case, five years ago. The previous A6 was quite nice looking, ditto the previous Passat.

 

What has happened since then, I don't think, can be called improvements.

 

With the BMWs, I can't say that the Bangle designs have grown on me as much as I can say that I've gotten accustomed to them. It's hardly the same thing. You can get used to being in prison. Doesn't mean you like it there.

 

The Benzes---no, I can't bring myself to call anything but the new SLK attractive, and it's not as attractive as the old SLK.

 

Yes, it's an exaggeration and definitely a reference to a matter of opinion to say that there aren't even 2 good looking German sedans today.

 

However, I would not be surprised if you did a survey and discovered fewer people like what is being sold today, and that those that like it, overall, are not very passionate about these designs.

[SVT_MAN]

The only flaw you could find in the Mondeo was that it looked like a Camry.

 

I mean really, that's bottom of the barrel material even from you.

 

 

Lets take care of that and put a new front end on it. Presto. Excellent global product.

 

We would be back to "But it would've european DNA in it and I can't accept that"

 

I'm not against collaboration from Ford NA, but unlike you, I do believe good design is global in nature.

 

Even if good design is global in nature, "GOOD TASTE" IS NOT. You design a product for local TASTES. A good design won't mean a hill of beans if no one likes it where you are selling it!

 

All it takes is to walk into a McDonald's in India or China to discover what I am talking about. Sure, they sell you a hamburger, but is it the same hamburger you can get on main street in Pleasantville, USA? No.

 

It's much different. McDonald's a truly global company, and they know that they have to adapt their product to local tastes ... yet Ford shouldn't follow suit? Ford should sell a European car as an American car just because Americans have no taste (according to you)? I'm sure your cause is very philanthropic (curing our bad, American tastes, afterall is a very worthwhile cause ..), but it simply doesn't make good business sense.

Edited August 29, 2007 by SVT_MAN

[Deanh]

On an environmental mindset, that is a good idea. It also helps Ford with the CAFE race.

 

But, on a consumer level: No way! - why restrict cars that won't ever enter Cali?

Ask the Kansan: Why should my truck have less power when I need that power to tow my horses?

Ask the Arizonan: Damn Californians are trying to have their way across my country!

Ask the other people: Aren't Cal emissions going to choke my car needlessly, as I won't need them for my state's regs?

 

So, I'm not sure on this.

 

When a "California car" is built, who makes the changes: the factory or the dealer?

as far as American cars are concerned, Cal emmisions do not effect HP and performance in ANY way....so why not, and building the car one way and one way only HAS to have a savings involved....computers etc would all be the same, so time saved on developement etc....

[atomcat68]

The problem is that even if the entire nation adopts California standards, California will just make a new standard so they can still feel superior to everyone else.

[StevenCaylor]

as far as American cars are concerned, Cal emmisions do not effect HP and performance in ANY way....so why not, and building the car one way and one way only HAS to have a savings involved....computers etc would all be the same, so time saved on developement etc....

 

Ford only makes one engine that has a horsepower difference with California regs. That's the Focus. The 2.0 in California makes 130 HP and with Federal regs, it's 136. I believe in the 2008 model, it will be 132 vs 140.

[Deanh]

The problem is that even if the entire nation adopts California standards, California will just make a new standard so they can still feel superior to everyone else.

perhaps.....BUt...anything that lowers crap being spilt into the air cannot be a bad thing.............

[Deanh]

Ford only makes one engine that has a horsepower difference with California regs. That's the Focus. The 2.0 in California makes 130 HP and with Federal regs, it's 136. I believe in the 2008 model, it will be 132 vs 140.

so a Pzev engine in any other state is actually NOT a Pzev?

[NickF1011]

perhaps.....BUt...anything that lowers crap being spilt into the air cannot be a bad thing.............

 

It is a very bad thing on a lot of levels actually, but we don't need to go down this road....again.

[Deanh]

It is a very bad thing on a lot of levels actually, but we don't need to go down this road....again.

?....huh? that makes zero sense Nick....hybrids aside of course ( battery issues) ...so youre saying just rip any sort of emmision controls off???? I need a drink......

[StevenCaylor]

so a Pzev engine in any other state is actually NOT a Pzev?

 

Any state with Califonia emissions gets the Duratec 20E in the Focus. That's California and four northeastern states. IIRC, there are eight other states where it is optional to have California emissions.

[Deanh]

Any state with Califonia emissions gets the Duratec 20E in the Focus. That's California and four northeastern states. IIRC, there are eight other states where it is optional to have California emissions.

undrlines my point....to have an assembly line set up one way and one way only MUST be more efficient and cost saving.......

[NickF1011]

?....huh? that makes zero sense Nick....hybrids aside of course ( battery issues) ...so youre saying just rip any sort of emmision controls off???? I need a drink......

 

I didn't say it was bad on ALL levels...but the insanity needs to end somewhere. The leftist wackos are getting too much clout out in Commifornia.