Saw another 2008 Focus

[StevenCaylor]

The one that people either love or just plain don't get.

 

http://www.thefordsource.com/store/car_acc..._keyless_lg.jpg

 

This is what the aftermarket one looks like

 

Here's what it looks like on my 2000 Mustang. Since it's wireless, it very easy to install, maybe about 5 minutes. IIRC, it works with most Ford's from 98 and up that had the factory keyfob.

 

Another Ford accessory I have on my Mustang is automatic headlamps. That one, I let the dealer install since it splices into the headlamp switch.

 

Edited September 8, 2007 by StevenCaylor

[jonas1022]

Very good looking little car. I still prefer the Lancer's looks, but this is just a night and day improvement for the Focus. It won't embarrass itself in comparison to the Civic and Corolla by any means.

WTF is a Lancer? A car from a looser Japanesse company about to go bust? Do you really like that thing?

[jonas1022]

What I don't understand is why Ford gets slammed for design when Toyota & Honda comes up with the ugliest cars on earth and everyone cheers. :shrug:

Yeah! I have yet to see a Toyota design that is good looking. They are either ugly or plain. Honda isn't much better. I did like the Acura TL, but then that isn't a Honda (at least by lable) is it?

[BlackHorse]

WTF is a Lancer? A car from a looser Japanesse company about to go bust? Do you really like that thing?

 

Taste is subjective and all, but I can see the point about the Lancer. Regardless of Mitsubishi's financial problems, the Lancer is a nice looking little car. It's certainly no worse than this Focus.

[BlackHorse]

Yeah! I have yet to see a Toyota design that is good looking. They are either ugly or plain.

 

Don't forget plain ugly. In fact, one might even say, they design ugly cars more often then not.

[jonas1022]

Don't forget plain ugly. In fact, one might even say, they design ugly cars more often then not.

Well they are reliable and consistent aren't they? So, yes I stand corrected. There is also plain ugly!

[Biker16]

The one that people either love or just plain don't get.

 

http://www.thefordsource.com/store/car_acc..._keyless_lg.jpg

 

This is what the aftermarket one looks like

the focus ain't got that.

 

back on topic:

 

I wonder if the next focus will be built At Wayne or even in the US.

 

the plant is actually pretty well run.

 

looking at it's peers in productivity it lags behind.

 

The paint shop. Is semi automated, Maybe could be fully automated and moved to separate stand alone Building, that would free up more floor space for the assembly line or expansion of the body shop. this could greatly improve the productivity of the paint shop allow fo installation of a new "flex" body shop. (issue there is very little space on site to build, without affecting the operation of the holding lot or MTP)

 

 

I guess the material Flow and handling could be improve from a basic perspective.

Wayne (right) and MTP (left)

http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=42.274006,-...p;z=16&om=1

 

The stamping plants are located to the south across the train tracks.

 

Could we improve the flow of materials into the plant?

right now we have most material coming in from the west side of the plant, using conveyors and fork lift to disperse the material thru the plants to the work stations. there is also a disadvantage to having a single every thing under one roof plant because it stretches your line of logistics within the plant. there looks to be choke point where both plants have ll thier loaidng docks, and

 

I won't argue it works well but is it working well enough?

 

This is The Focus plant in Germany

 

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&...p;z=16&om=1

 

There is extreme separation of stamping, body shop, paint, Trim lines. http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&...p;z=18&om=1

 

material flows from building to building via internal conveyors, and each part of the process has its own loading docks and supply flow.

 

 

Why would we need a new plant?

because when you retool you carry over alot of restrictions to efficiency that an older plant has.

with a New or ground up redo, you can reform the process and make the assembly process, maximize efficiency and minimize waste.

a plant that is scalable, and can increase production by means other than increasing line speed.

infinitely flexible.

 

JITDS : Just In Time Delivery System

ILVS. : In Line Vehicle Sequencing

 

It appeared the Focus is still using Alot of equipment from the 1991 escort.

 

We need to do alot better For C2 or C1.5

[RichardJensen]

How long would it take you to save the $1B plus spent on a new plant?

 

And I know the Focus doesn't have a factory keypad, but one can be installed by the dealer. Heck, you can buy them off e-bay.

[StevenCaylor]

How long would it take you to save the $1B plus spent on a new plant?

 

And I know the Focus doesn't have a factory keypad, but one can be installed by the dealer. Heck, you can buy them off e-bay.

 

Like I said before, the keypad is VERY easy to install yourself. Takes perhaps five minutes. A total waste of money if you have the dealer do it.

[Biker16]

How long would it take you to save the $1B plus spent on a new plant?

 

1) the choice is to invest less money and lose money.

 

2) invest in plant needed to make the product profitable.

 

3) invest in china or mexico and make money.

 

Richard you are not a manufacturing expert.

 

We will spend 500 billion to retool an exsisting plant or 800-1000 million to build a new plant.

 

I wish you would at least spend time to examine the issue before you decide.

[silvrsvt]

1) the choice is to invest less money and lose money.

 

2) invest in plant needed to make the product profitable.

 

3) invest in china or mexico and make money.

 

Richard you are not a manufacturing expert.

 

We will spend 500 billion to retool an exsisting plant or 800-1000 million to build a new plant.

 

I wish you would at least spend time to examine the issue before you decide.

 

 

And you are?

[fbmphil]

Carl Weathers, starring as Chubbs in Happy Gilmore.

[RichardJensen]

I wish you would at least spend time to examine the issue before you decide.

Oh geez yes, Ford spent $300M on new equipment at Wayne. Or they could spend an additional $700M on a new plant some place.

 

 

The difference is practically pocket change.

 

Regardless of what you want to toss out there, the cost of keeping an existing plant up to date is non-trivially lower than building a new plant from scratch.

[Biker16]

Oh geez yes, Ford spent $300M on new equipment at Wayne. Or they could spend an additional $700M on a new plant some place.

The difference is practically pocket change.

 

Regardless of what you want to toss out there, the cost of keeping an existing plant up to date is non-trivially lower than building a new plant from scratch.

 

 

would have preferred Ford continue to build the mustang in DAP and simply invest in retooling that 80 year old plant.

 

there are times when a plant reaches the end of its useful life. Wixom was on of them, it was designed for different era of manufacturing. the same could be said about River Rouge complex.

 

by your logic we would never build a new plant because it would be too expensive. I am not arguing the costs, I am advocating the benefits of a new plant.

 

C2 will require an all new Flex body shop. 300million

Wayne would likely need a new paint shop 150 million

Re-fitment of the Trim line to accommodate larger vehicles like the C-max/Kuga, variety of other models Cost 100-200 million.

 

550-650 million these are real numbers, Not including actual Retooling

 

The 2008 Focus cost 130 million For "tooling and equipment"

 

Where would you reduce investment?

 

Would it be wise to at least have a plant whose layout could make best use this investment? A new plant would not be restrained by choke points of an older plant.

 

P.S Wayne Ain't got the space to handle such an expansion. the focus will likely be moving.

Edited September 10, 2007 by Biker16

[RichardJensen]

Re-fitment of the Trim line to accommodate larger vehicles like the C-max/Kuga, variety of other models Cost 100-200 million.

Do you know where they build the Escape?

 

They will not need to build the Escape at Wayne. It can still be built at KCAP.

 

Also, if you assume a 20 year lifespan to a 'plant', or at least to its innards (CAP re-engineered in mid 80s for Taurus, Hermosillo built in '86), Wayne is a few years away from any major investment anyway, and who knows what they'll do with it?

 

Wouldn't be surprised if they re-engineer both Wayne & MTP a la OAP + OTP = OAC. But certainly not for the Focus alone, nor likely for the Focus & Escape.

Edited September 10, 2007 by RichardJensen

[Biker16]

Do you know where they build the Escape?

 

They will not need to build the Escape at Wayne. It can still be built at KCAP.

 

Also, if you assume a 20 year lifespan to a 'plant', or at least to its innards (CAP re-engineered in mid 80s for Taurus, Hermosillo built in '86), Wayne is a few years away from any major investment anyway, and who knows what they'll do with it?

 

Wouldn't be surprised if they re-engineer both Wayne & MTP a la OAP + OTP = OAC. But certainly not for the Focus alone, nor likely for the Focus & Escape.

 

why build a flex plant if you don't intend to use it?????

 

the escape will be the Kuga, and it will be built with THe focus.

 

 

STOP Repeating the mistakes of the past Do it right

 

 

OTP + OAP became OAC only when OTP closed.

 

You really don't know shit about manufacturing.

 

Wayne will close to allow MTP to build the F150. Maybe converting WAP to a supplier park.

 

Since you really don't know shit about this.

 

WAP and MTP use up 370 Acres

 

KCAP use 1 2 6 9 acres. 3.49 times the space as MTP and WAP.

 

there ain't no space at Wayne combined with the issue of shuting down production to gut and rebuild a plant.

 

GET A CLUE.

 

Stop arguing with me on this, you are wrong.

 

We may have a all new plant built on the site of an exsisting plant, or an all new line built under roof an exsisting plant.

Edited September 11, 2007 by Biker16

[ShockFX]

STOP Repeating the mistakes of the past Do it right

 

Quoted for emphasis.

[RichardJensen]

Wayne will close to allow MTP to build the F150.

 

Yeah. I'm the idiot.

 

MTP is going to build the F150, when Ford already has a perfectly serviceable F150 plant sitting on, as you pointed out, about 4 times the footprint. Or, perhaps, half again the footprint, when you account for -two lines- at KCAP.

 

Why don't you provide some credentials as to -your- manufacturing expertise?

 

What you see -me- talking about, in terms of marketing, is Business 101 stuff. Core material in any marketing class that is put into practice about everywhere. Except apparently in Detroit

 

 

You on the other hand claim some sort of superior knowledge... What's your basis?

[Biker16]

Yeah. I'm the idiot.

 

MTP is going to build the F150, when Ford already has a perfectly serviceable F150 plant sitting on, as you pointed out, about 4 times the footprint. Or, perhaps, half again the footprint, when you account for -two lines- at KCAP.

 

Why don't you provide some credentials as to -your- manufacturing expertise?

 

What you see -me- talking about, in terms of marketing, is Business 101 stuff. Core material in any marketing class that is put into practice about everywhere. Except apparently in Detroit

You on the other hand claim some sort of superior knowledge... What's your basis?

 

I do know more about manufacturing than you do, how 3 years of engineering. plus the fact I know how a Car is really built.

 

What

JITDS, ILVS, Lean manufacturing.

 

 

more importantly I know how ford scores on the harbor report.

I know how inefficient Ford's stamping operations have been. Because We have neglected to update them as fast as our competition has been.

How stamping both on-site and off-site has an effect on a plants, actual flexibility.

 

I also know what the Harbour report is.

 

 

perfectly serviceable? It sounds like adequate. Aren't you in favor of kaizen (continuous improvement)?

 

whatever.

 

As i said before You really need to study the issue before you dismiss it out of hand. You do that too much.

 

Why move the F150 to MTP?

 

MTP has a flex line, is creeping along with the Navi and Expy, KCAP is running 2 shifts, DTP running 3 crew. will be looking to right size F150 production, shifting production to MTP, Which already runs the T1

Expy and Navi, havg it run 3 crew along with DTP makes sense. and has been rumored for at least a year.

 

We do know, Ford has 2 more plants to idle.

 

We won't know for sure until the Labor negotiations end.

 

 

MTP is going to build the F150, when Ford already has a perfectly serviceable F150 plant sitting on, as you pointed out, about 4 times the footprint. Or, perhaps, half again the footprint, when you account for -two lines- at KCAP.

 

Actually MTP and Wayne combined are larger in floor space than KCAP. the point I was making is that Wayne can't easily expand, you would have more options for integrated Supplier park, and other logistical improvements that you really can't do in Wayne.

 

 

Wayne

http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=42.274006,-...p;z=16&om=1

 

Germany

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&...p;z=16&om=1

 

Kansas City

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&...p;z=16&om=1

[SilverStangO1]

Any news of an ST version or upgraded coupe model? Something besides the 2.0?

[630land]

I just drove one, it is nice.

To me it is what the 2005 should have been.

 

interior is good, textures are good, tons more storage.

 

The Seats were great, 100% better than the 2000.

 

NVH Was good, engine still a little coarse At mid to high Rpm.

 

We Also had the plant tour. my 1st car plant tour.

 

They finally :

replaced the 2000 Focus seats

Added some decent door seals

Replaced the ancient electrical system, with a new CANbus system ( shared with th Escape.)

Flow thru center console

Cons:

nice looking plastic, hard plastic, there was only one piece of soft touch plastic in the car.

Absence of interior trunk release.

NEW steering wheel does not tilt and telescope, just tilts.

steering wheel is too big.

conclusion, finally an update to the 2000 Focus.

 

P.S. The build Quality is Top notch, It will Score best in class in reliability.

 

What happened to "This car should be a C1!" So, if it pleases this finicky Focus fan, then it sounds like it is better than what the complainers say. :shades:

[RichardJensen]

Why move the F150 to MTP?

 

MTP has a flex line, is creeping along with the Navi and Expy, KCAP is running 2 shifts, DTP running 3 crew. will be looking to right size F150 production, shifting production to MTP, Which already runs the T1

Expy and Navi, havg it run 3 crew along with DTP makes sense. and has been rumored for at least a year.

The most persistent rumor about MTP is that it will -close-.

 

You would have Ford spend a billion dollars moving the F150 from KCAP for what concrete benefits?

 

You've multiple times in your post asserted your qualifications. Well, show me that your academic knowledge has real world merit.

 

Show me how Ford justifies moving the F150 from KCAP to MTP in dollars and cents. You tell me how long it takes Ford to pay off that move. You tell me how much they save in transportation costs. You show me how much they save using a flex plant to build 2 or even 3 shifts worth of the same basic product (and you don't need a flex plant to bolt an Expy body onto a frame that is roughly the same as the F150 frame).

 

-----

 

As far as 'studying' the issue is concerned, don't confuse my dismissal of your posts with a failure to consider them. You talk a fine game about what Ford can do to simplify operations, but until you can provide any kind of valid dollars and cents estimates of COST SAVINGS, I can't be bothered. Frankly, there's nothing for me -to- study.

 

And don't tell me that savings are self-evident.

 

They're not.

 

Sure, savings -will occur- but will they justify the investment?

 

Not always and not necessarily.

Edited September 11, 2007 by RichardJensen

[ShockFX]

If the 2008 is what the 2005 should have been, it follows to say the car is 3 years behind where it should be. Thank god it's catching up in 2010/2011.

[Biker16]

What happened to "This car should be a C1!" So, if it pleases this finicky Focus fan, then it sounds like it is better than what the complainers say. :shades:

 

You are right. I should be more negative, but it really ain't that bad. C1 fixed alot of what was wrong with C170, the 2005 did not fix alot of issues, it kept them.

 

cupholders, for example.

 

They carried over the center console, design because they didn't want to redesign the emergency brake, the 08 moves the E-brake and offers a new center console that can fit larger cups. They Did the SAME thing with C1, duplicating the efforts.

 

Windows:

They increased the thickness of the windshield an side glass on the 08, they did the same thing on C1 in 2004.

 

Door seals:

The original Door seals on the 1998 focus were too thick and were not very effective. the 08 redesigned the doors and the seals so that it fits together better making the redesigned seals more effective. C1 use a double door seal system to handle the same issues.

 

As to Richard's argument to why you don't want a new plant. The 1996 Taurus kept the hard points of the previous model because th e cost of redoing the tooling was too great, and would require the plant to be shutdown for extended periods of time. forcing compromises in the design of the car.

 

Going forward, we can not become the smart and nimble company we want to be if we don't put the money where it will help us the most.

our plants and our people. Building flex plants that are not flexible, typical Old Ford half assing

 

ONE FORD!

 

US plants need to mirror our ROW plants as much as possible. ONE FORD one way to Design, engineer and build cars.

 

Show me how Ford justifies moving the F150 from KCAP to MTP in dollars and cents. You tell me how long it takes Ford to pay off that move. You tell me how much they save in transportation costs. You show me how much they save using a flex plant to build 2 or even 3 shifts worth of the same basic product (and you don't need a flex plant to bolt an Expy body onto a frame that is roughly the same as the F150 frame).

 

I have no numbers Ford does, and Ford does not release such data. It does make sense.

 

The 2009 F150 uses the T1 architecture.

 

MTP was Retooled and added a Flex body shop to build the T1 based Expy and Navi.

 

MTP has gone from 3 crew to 2 shift as sales have fallen. 272375 (1999)-> 111150 (2006). It is well under capacity and has recently had 300 million in investments.

 

Do you move The Expy and Navi or do you move a product in to MTP, and run that plant Balls out. (3 crew max production ~300,000 units. )

 

 

As to KCAP you have the escape line and the F150 line.

 

The F150 line has a Flex body shop, That would be able to build C-cars. Saving 300 million.

 

move F150 production to MTP in 4Q2008

Idle KCAP truck in 4Q 2008

Retool KCAP truck in 4Q 2008- 3Q 2009

Focus production begins at KCAP 4Q 2009 Full production 1Q 2010

Wayne Idled 1Q 2010.

[RichardJensen]

The 1996 Taurus kept the hard points of the previous model because th e cost of redoing the tooling was too great, and would require the plant to be shutdown for extended periods of time.

 

Do you mean the '00 Taurus? Or the '96 Taurus. Because the '96 Taurus shares almost nothing with the '95 Taurus. At the time, Ford fitted the Chicago stamping plant with equipment that could stamp the entire side of the car (except the front fenders) from a single blank.

 

The 2009 F150 uses the T1 architecture.

 

MTP was Retooled and added a Flex body shop to build the T1 based Expy and Navi.

 

MTP has gone from 3 crew to 2 shift as sales have fallen. 272375 (1999)-> 111150 (2006). It is well under capacity and has recently had 300 million in investments.

 

Do you move The Expy and Navi or do you move a product in to MTP, and run that plant Balls out. (3 crew max production ~300,000 units. )

As to KCAP you have the escape line and the F150 line.

 

The F150 line has a Flex body shop, That would be able to build C-cars. Saving 300 million.

 

move F150 production to MTP in 4Q2008

Idle KCAP truck in 4Q 2008

Retool KCAP truck in 4Q 2008- 3Q 2009

Focus production begins at KCAP 4Q 2009 Full production 1Q 2010

Wayne Idled 1Q 2010.

IMO you move Expy and Navi to KCAP.

 

I think consolidating C2 at a single factory (Focus/Escape/whatever else) doesn't make sense logistically, once you factor in the costs of relocating half of the company's F150 production.

 

And as with OAC, I think you make the best of an awkward setup at MTP/Wayne and turn it into a single plant complex. Possibly for C2 and EUCD2.