My thoughts on a UAW VEBA.

[mrballsonya]

I really have no faith in the ability of the UAW to manage such a huge liability/Fund. I think ahead... about 5 years and have terrible images in my head, of unqualified, middle school educated, UAW Reps being led out of the UAW international in handcuffs. This will be like giving out blank checks to crackheads. Unless this money is very closely watched and scrutinized, it will be skimmed, pilfered and "invested poorly". In 4 years, we'll all see a bulletin stating that " Due to the increasing high cost of health care, and underperfoming investments, the VEBA will have to be supplemented to the tune of $2000 per employee".

 

We've all seen the UAW membership dwindle to less than 40% of what it once was, and yet our beloved international has remained as bloated as it ever was. This really sounds like an efficient, well run organization. Definitely an organization that I'd like to infuse a Multi billion dollar investment in. The corruption, kickbacks, payoffs and favoritism that this massive amount of money will create are truly scary. If you guys think that all the shady shit that happens at a local level, amazingly stops as soon as the same individuals go "down town".....I've got a nice bridge to sell you in Brooklyn, N.Y. .

 

I also have serious questions about the, "what if" scenario of the enactment of a U.S. national health care system. I doubt this will ever happen, but if it does... what happens to this money? I highly doubt the UAW would refund the money to its members, or even increase the retirement benefits. This would be a pure windfall for the UAW. I foresee a MASSIVE expansion of International, doubling the size.....all in the name of "Increasing new membership campaigns" i.e.....an excuse to pay every brother, cousin, nephew, and friend $80,000 a year to do nothing.

 

As you can tell, I'm a very skeptical person. I absolutely believe in the fundamental beliefs of a union, without collective bargaining I don't think we'd have a middle class in the U.S. Unfortunately I think the modern UAW has become a nepotistic, self serving, uncompetitive joke. The UAW no longer serves its average member, it serves itself and the lazy P.O.S worker. Make sure you get the drunk, crackhead his job back, so you can saddle his hardworking coworkers with twice the work.

 

If you mess up once.... thats O.K., if you mess up again...well, this is your last chance.....the third time, you're GONE. Lets cut the fat, and prove that good, hardworking UAW members cannot be equaled in their work ethic, and efficiency. Lets remain competitive, and keep our good paying jobs here in the U.S. .

 

It'll be very hard to compete with $2 per hour Chinese workers, when we've got $30 an hour UAW workers stating......"that's not my job, all I can do is sit here and read my paper". IMO the modern UAW needs a serious protocol overhaul, and a massive leadership cleansing.

[scmustang]

I really have no faith in the ability of the UAW to manage such a huge liability/Fund. I think ahead... about 5 years and have terrible images in my head, of unqualified, middle school educated, UAW Reps being led out of the UAW international in handcuffs. This will be like giving out blank checks to crackheads. Unless this money is very closely watched and scrutinized, it will be skimmed, pilfered and "invested poorly". In 4 years, we'll all see a bulletin stating that " Due to the increasing high cost of health care, and underperfoming investments, the VEBA will have to be supplemented to the tune of $2000 per employee".

 

We've all seen the UAW membership dwindle to less than 40% of what it once was, and yet our beloved international has remained as bloated as it ever was. This really sounds like an efficient, well run organization. Definitely an organization that I'd like to infuse a Multi billion dollar investment in. The corruption, kickbacks, payoffs and favoritism that this massive amount of money will create are truly scary. If you guys think that all the shady shit that happens at a local level, amazingly stops as soon as the same individuals go "down town".....I've got a nice bridge to sell you in Brooklyn, N.Y. .

 

I also have serious questions about the, "what if" scenario of the enactment of a U.S. national health care system. I doubt this will ever happen, but if it does... what happens to this money? I highly doubt the UAW would refund the money to its members, or even increase the retirement benefits. This would be a pure windfall for the UAW. I foresee a MASSIVE expansion of International, doubling the size.....all in the name of "Increasing new membership campaigns" i.e.....an excuse to pay every brother, cousin, nephew, and friend $80,000 a year to do nothing.

 

As you can tell, I'm a very skeptical person. I absolutely believe in the fundamental beliefs of a union, without collective bargaining I don't think we'd have a middle class in the U.S. Unfortunately I think the modern UAW has become a nepotistic, self serving, uncompetitive joke. The UAW no longer serves its average member, it serves itself and the lazy P.O.S worker. Make sure you get the drunk, crackhead his job back, so you can saddle his hardworking coworkers with twice the work.

 

If you mess up once.... thats O.K., if you mess up again...well, this is your last chance.....the third time, you're GONE. Lets cut the fat, and prove that good, hardworking UAW members cannot be equaled in their work ethic, and efficiency. Lets remain competitive, and keep our good paying jobs here in the U.S. .

 

It'll be very hard to compete with $2 per hour Chinese workers, when we've got $30 an hour UAW workers stating......"that's not my job, all I can do is sit here and read my paper". IMO the modern UAW needs a serious protocol overhaul, and a massive leadership cleansing.

very well said. thank you for speaking out for ALL responsible hard working ford employees

[Furious1Auto]

In 4 years, we'll all see a bulletin stating that " Due to the increasing high cost of health care, and underperfoming investments, the VEBA will have to be supplemented to the tune of $2000 per employee".

The big problem is that the UAW only generates income from it's members and not at the rate that the company generates money off of our products! If the UAW saw that they their investment were not keeping pace, then what you suggest is a very real possibility! Even worse, we don't negotiate with our international and the could force the retiree's to take reduced coverage to as little as 90/10 or even 80/20 coverage! They could also try to impose dues hikes to say, 3 or 4 hours a month. Where would it end? The liability needs to remain on the company. The only way I would vote yes is if I thought that the country was ready to have national health care, and from lobbying for it on this sight I did not get positive responses. I don't think national health care will be happening any time soon! F-ck VEBA

[Len_A]

This is only a guess or speculation on my part, but my thinking on a VEBA is that Gettlefinger will do, with a VEBA, what he did prior to last years health care negotiations, and that's bring in an outside accounting firm to take care of the VEBA, just as he brought in an outside auditor to go over GM & Ford's books.

 

Just my thoughts. If he doesn't do that, then all your concerns are justified.

[macattack]

I really have no faith in the ability of the UAW to manage such a huge liability/Fund. I think ahead... about 5 years and have terrible images in my head, of unqualified, middle school educated, UAW Reps being led out of the UAW international in handcuffs. This will be like giving out blank checks to crackheads. Unless this money is very closely watched and scrutinized, it will be skimmed, pilfered and "invested poorly". In 4 years, we'll all see a bulletin stating that " Due to the increasing high cost of health care, and underperfoming investments, the VEBA will have to be supplemented to the tune of $2000 per employee".

 

We've all seen the UAW membership dwindle to less than 40% of what it once was, and yet our beloved international has remained as bloated as it ever was. This really sounds like an efficient, well run organization. Definitely an organization that I'd like to infuse a Multi billion dollar investment in. The corruption, kickbacks, payoffs and favoritism that this massive amount of money will create are truly scary. If you guys think that all the shady shit that happens at a local level, amazingly stops as soon as the same individuals go "down town".....I've got a nice bridge to sell you in Brooklyn, N.Y. .

 

I also have serious questions about the, "what if" scenario of the enactment of a U.S. national health care system. I doubt this will ever happen, but if it does... what happens to this money? I highly doubt the UAW would refund the money to its members, or even increase the retirement benefits. This would be a pure windfall for the UAW. I foresee a MASSIVE expansion of International, doubling the size.....all in the name of "Increasing new membership campaigns" i.e.....an excuse to pay every brother, cousin, nephew, and friend $80,000 a year to do nothing.

 

As you can tell, I'm a very skeptical person. I absolutely believe in the fundamental beliefs of a union, without collective bargaining I don't think we'd have a middle class in the U.S. Unfortunately I think the modern UAW has become a nepotistic, self serving, uncompetitive joke. The UAW no longer serves its average member, it serves itself and the lazy P.O.S worker. Make sure you get the drunk, crackhead his job back, so you can saddle his hardworking coworkers with twice the work.

 

If you mess up once.... thats O.K., if you mess up again...well, this is your last chance.....the third time, you're GONE. Lets cut the fat, and prove that good, hardworking UAW members cannot be equaled in their work ethic, and efficiency. Lets remain competitive, and keep our good paying jobs here in the U.S. .

 

It'll be very hard to compete with $2 per hour Chinese workers, when we've got $30 an hour UAW workers stating......"that's not my job, all I can do is sit here and read my paper". IMO the modern UAW needs a serious protocol overhaul, and a massive leadership cleansing.

 

you've covered everything...well said! hope everyone who sees this will take note and pay attention...this HAS to happen before anyone will once again take the UAW serious!!!

[Hotlanta]

This is only a guess or speculation on my part, but my thinking on a VEBA is that Gettlefinger will do, with a VEBA, what he did prior to last years health care negotiations, and that's bring in an outside accounting firm to take care of the VEBA, just as he brought in an outside auditor to go over GM & Ford's books.

 

Just my thoughts. If he doesn't do that, then all your concerns are justified.

 

I'm sure that's what he will do, absolutely. But the problem is, FMC had so-called "professionals" doing the same thing, and STILL can't afford the health care costs.

 

And with the stock market and economy steadily declining, investing that money is at best, risky.

 

I'm afraid that we are up the proverbial creek no matter WHO handles it. Look what happened with Caterpillar and Detroit Diesel. They both ended up with bankrupt VEBAs and were left with huge increases in co-pays, deductibles, and premiums, despite previous agreements to protect them.

 

I guess all we can do is hope for the best, and expect the worst.

[Furious1Auto]

I'm sure that's what he will do, absolutely. But the problem is, FMC had so-called "professionals" doing the same thing, and STILL can't afford the health care costs.

 

And with the stock market and economy steadily declining, investing that money is at best, risky.

 

I'm afraid that we are up the proverbial creek no matter WHO handles it. Look what happened with Caterpillar and Detroit Diesel. They both ended up with bankrupt VEBAs and were left with huge increases in co-pays, deductibles, and premiums, despite previous agreements to protect them.

 

I guess all we can do is hope for the best, and expect the worst.

Interesting!

[ptsweeper]

Normally I would say this is a bad idea, but with the state of Ford (and GM) I would take the money now and set up the VEBA. It will have to be professionally managed.

 

If Ford goes bankrupt, heathcare for retirees is gone.

[Zora]

I've been thinking the same thing. Hate to be to negative..I think we are screwed either way we look at it. If it's handle the right way it can be done...but thats a BIG IF. Who can you trust handling BILLIONS of dollars???

Hell... are own government(bush) shipped $12 Billion to iraq...$8.8 Billion is missing!!!! WTF!!!

Edited September 9, 2007 by Zora

[Xtremesynthetic]

I forget who said it, sorry but they made a great point!! With the UAW dwindling down, how much is the active UAW worker going to pay. Also, someone said if all the big three can't figure this mess out, how is the UAW going to do it.

 

Can I put out an idea out there!! Why wouldn't the UAW along with the big three pool all their hourly and salary workers along with their respective retiries and purchase the healthcare as one whole unit. I'm no financial guru but I do know this for certain!! When you purchase anything in bulk you get steep discounts on the products you purchase. Why not try that idea!!

 

I know why it wouldn't work, because it is a truely good idea!! No pockets are getting lined and the health care community would actually have to place a valid bid to retain the healthcare contract with the automotive companies.

 

Any thoughts to build on this idea?

[Furious1Auto]

I forget who said it, sorry but they made a great point!! With the UAW dwindling down, how much is the active UAW worker going to pay. Also, someone said if all the big three can't figure this mess out, how is the UAW going to do it.

 

Can I put out an idea out there!! Why wouldn't the UAW along with the big three pool all their hourly and salary workers along with their respective retiries and purchase the healthcare as one whole unit. I'm no financial guru but I do know this for certain!! When you purchase anything in bulk you get steep discounts on the products you purchase. Why not try that idea!!

 

I know why it wouldn't work, because it is a truely good idea!! No pockets are getting lined and the health care community would actually have to place a valid bid to retain the healthcare contract with the automotive companies.

 

Any thoughts to build on this idea?

I said that long ago, you would think with the number of policies being underwritten by insurers shrinking that they could employ Wal-Mart tactics and nearly dictate to perspective insures what they are whiling to pay for premiums! Or even if they created an entire dept. that was non-profit and self sustaining they could become their own insurer, or self insured! They could even underwrite policies for other companies for a fee! At least they would cut out the middle man (highly profitable insurance companies)!

[mrballsonya]

From what I've read recently, Wall Street is pretty much counting on the VEBA being a done deal. If a VEBA doesn't happen, the big 3's stock prices will get hammered. If the VEBA does happen, I think we can expect similar results as to when Goodyear agreed to a VEBA with the Steelworkers........ almost an immediate 15-25% gain in stock values. This could be a very lucrative time for those willing to gamble a little.

 

Speaking as a Ford shareholder and employee, I have very mixed feelings on this. As an Employee I've already voiced my opinions about the Union taking over the liability's of the VEBA. As a stock holder, I'm honestly thinking about buying an extra 10K in ford stock....because I'm fairly certain the VEBA is going to happen. As LEN_A stated, I think we all need to hope that the UAW will simply drop this huge amount of money into the laps of a tried and true, conservative, investment/accounting firm and hope for the best.

[Furious1Auto]

From what I've read recently, Wall Street is pretty much counting on the VEBA being a done deal. If a VEBA doesn't happen, the big 3's stock prices will get hammered. If the VEBA does happen, I think we can expect similar results as to when Goodyear agreed to a VEBA with the Steelworkers........ almost an immediate 15-25% gain in stock values. This could be a very lucrative time for those willing to gamble a little.

 

Speaking as a Ford shareholder and employee, I have very mixed feelings on this. As an Employee I've already voiced my opinions about the Union taking over the liability's of the VEBA. As a stock holder, I'm honestly thinking about buying an extra 10K in ford stock....because I'm fairly certain the VEBA is going to happen. As LEN_A stated, I think we all need to hope that the UAW will simply drop this huge amount of money into the laps of a tried and true, conservative, investment/accounting firm and hope for the best.

Greed is terrible, what you need to look at is, are the short term gains worth the long term loss? And if it where really beneficial to me would the company be offering it! the answer will vary from person to person! I'm also in your position!

Edited September 9, 2007 by Furious1Auto

[PFA]

Mrballsonya

Very well said. Most of us believe that Ford reads these boards, well I hope Ford and the UAW all get an idea of what is going through the employees minds with these negotiations and our livelyhood on the line with their decisions. I know, they prob. don't care and not much we can do about it, but one can hope...

[Zora]

Watch for RED FLAGS in the UAW Contract

 

 

 

The UAW Administration has a lousy record. In the last two years they have negotiated Wage Cuts and COLA Diversions along with jacked up Health Care premiums and out of pocket expenses for retirees. They have encouraged Local Bargaining Committees to approve COAs that outsource good jobs and set up two tier pay scales that divide the membership. They have fostered work rule changes that set the union back 70 years. What surprises are in store for us in the 2007 National Agreement? Watch for these Red Flags.

 

 

 

Red Flag #1: The rush to ratify.

 

What’s the rush? Why don’t they want us to kick the tires and look under the hood? We deserve at least a week to consider a contract they have been negotiating for two years.

 

 

 

Red Flag # 2: The Signing Bonus.

 

The bigger the bait, the bigger the hook. Every signing bonus is back loaded with wage cuts and COLA Diversions, and job eliminations costing us far more than any bonus they may offer.

 

 

 

Red Flag #3: Two Tier Wages and Abuse of Temp Workers.

 

Two tier fractures solidarity and undermines retiree’s security. It’s a divide and conquer plan. Restore dignity to our union by making Temps permanent and equal members with full seniority.

 

 

 

Red Flag #4: VEBA.

 

The companies want to “strip and flip” our fully company-paid health care and replace it with a limited fund. They want a new VEBA that shifts all the risk onto the union. Whatever the companies stand to gain, workers stand to lose. Don’t gamble retirement security on the stock market. If the companies are in such bad shape, where are they getting billions of cash for VEBA?

 

 

 

Red Flag #5: Supplements to be Negotiated After Ratification.

 

In the 2003 Delphi and Visteon Agreements a Two Tier Supplement was negotiated after the ratification. Members were not permitted to ratify the supplement. Ratifying an unfinished agreement is like signing a mortgage before you know the interest rate.

 

 

 

Red Flag #6: COLA Diversion is a Wage Cut in Disguise.

 

 

 

Restore the principles that won respect for the UAW: Solidarity, Equality, Democracy.

 

 

 

If you see a Red Flag, VOTE NO!

 

 

 

www.soldiersofsolidarity.com; www.futureoftheunion.com; www.factoryrat.com

[NoMoVisteon]

I forget who said it, sorry but they made a great point!! With the UAW dwindling down, how much is the active UAW worker going to pay. Also, someone said if all the big three can't figure this mess out, how is the UAW going to do it.

 

Can I put out an idea out there!! Why wouldn't the UAW along with the big three pool all their hourly and salary workers along with their respective retiries and purchase the healthcare as one whole unit. I'm no financial guru but I do know this for certain!! When you purchase anything in bulk you get steep discounts on the products you purchase. Why not try that idea!!

 

I know why it wouldn't work, because it is a truely good idea!! No pockets are getting lined and the health care community would actually have to place a valid bid to retain the healthcare contract with the automotive companies.

 

Any thoughts to build on this idea?

An excellent idea here, Xtreme! Like you, I think that it would make sense and may be be successful too. But being that it would be successful, there would be some of greedy assholes that would try to stop it, if for no ther reason than to have things THEIR WAY! Just my thoughts.

[NoMoVisteon]

Watch for RED FLAGS in the UAW Contract

The UAW Administration has a lousy record. In the last two years they have negotiated Wage Cuts and COLA Diversions along with jacked up Health Care premiums and out of pocket expenses for retirees. They have encouraged Local Bargaining Committees to approve COAs that outsource good jobs and set up two tier pay scales that divide the membership. They have fostered work rule changes that set the union back 70 years. What surprises are in store for us in the 2007 National Agreement? Watch for these Red Flags.

Red Flag #1: The rush to ratify.

 

What’s the rush? Why don’t they want us to kick the tires and look under the hood? We deserve at least a week to consider a contract they have been negotiating for two years.

Red Flag # 2: The Signing Bonus.

 

The bigger the bait, the bigger the hook. Every signing bonus is back loaded with wage cuts and COLA Diversions, and job eliminations costing us far more than any bonus they may offer.

Red Flag #3: Two Tier Wages and Abuse of Temp Workers.

 

Two tier fractures solidarity and undermines retiree’s security. It’s a divide and conquer plan. Restore dignity to our union by making Temps permanent and equal members with full seniority.

Red Flag #4: VEBA.

 

The companies want to “strip and flip” our fully company-paid health care and replace it with a limited fund. They want a new VEBA that shifts all the risk onto the union. Whatever the companies stand to gain, workers stand to lose. Don’t gamble retirement security on the stock market. If the companies are in such bad shape, where are they getting billions of cash for VEBA?

Red Flag #5: Supplements to be Negotiated After Ratification.

 

In the 2003 Delphi and Visteon Agreements a Two Tier Supplement was negotiated after the ratification. Members were not permitted to ratify the supplement. Ratifying an unfinished agreement is like signing a mortgage before you know the interest rate.

Red Flag #6: COLA Diversion is a Wage Cut in Disguise.

Restore the principles that won respect for the UAW: Solidarity, Equality, Democracy.

If you see a Red Flag, VOTE NO!

www.soldiersofsolidarity.com; www.futureoftheunion.com; www.factoryrat.com

I HEAR YA ON THIS ONE, ZORA!! Been too many red flags in past contracts, local and national yet this shit still gets voted in...... One need not look very far to see just what is happening NOW and may very well in the future...... :fan: :slug: :banmolest: :whipped: :banmolest: :beatdeadhorse:

[dunkin]

I really have no faith in the ability of the UAW to manage such a huge liability/Fund. I think ahead... about 5 years and have terrible images in my head, of unqualified, middle school educated, UAW Reps being led out of the UAW international in handcuffs. This will be like giving out blank checks to crackheads. Unless this money is very closely watched and scrutinized, it will be skimmed, pilfered and "invested poorly". In 4 years, we'll all see a bulletin stating that " Due to the increasing high cost of health care, and underperfoming investments, the VEBA will have to be supplemented to the tune of $2000 per employee".

 

We've all seen the UAW membership dwindle to less than 40% of what it once was, and yet our beloved international has remained as bloated as it ever was. This really sounds like an efficient, well run organization. Definitely an organization that I'd like to infuse a Multi billion dollar investment in. The corruption, kickbacks, payoffs and favoritism that this massive amount of money will create are truly scary. If you guys think that all the shady shit that happens at a local level, amazingly stops as soon as the same individuals go "down town".....I've got a nice bridge to sell you in Brooklyn, N.Y. .

 

I also have serious questions about the, "what if" scenario of the enactment of a U.S. national health care system. I doubt this will ever happen, but if it does... what happens to this money? I highly doubt the UAW would refund the money to its members, or even increase the retirement benefits. This would be a pure windfall for the UAW. I foresee a MASSIVE expansion of International, doubling the size.....all in the name of "Increasing new membership campaigns" i.e.....an excuse to pay every brother, cousin, nephew, and friend $80,000 a year to do nothing.

 

As you can tell, I'm a very skeptical person. I absolutely believe in the fundamental beliefs of a union, without collective bargaining I don't think we'd have a middle class in the U.S. Unfortunately I think the modern UAW has become a nepotistic, self serving, uncompetitive joke. The UAW no longer serves its average member, it serves itself and the lazy P.O.S worker. Make sure you get the drunk, crackhead his job back, so you can saddle his hardworking coworkers with twice the work.

 

If you mess up once.... thats O.K., if you mess up again...well, this is your last chance.....the third time, you're GONE. Lets cut the fat, and prove that good, hardworking UAW members cannot be equaled in their work ethic, and efficiency. Lets remain competitive, and keep our good paying jobs here in the U.S. .

 

It'll be very hard to compete with $2 per hour Chinese workers, when we've got $30 an hour UAW workers stating......"that's not my job, all I can do is sit here and read my paper". IMO the modern UAW needs a serious protocol overhaul, and a massive leadership cleansing.

ballsonya have a little faith . in a few days you will have your answers. pray for us !!!!!

[skittet150]

ballsonya have a little faith . in a few days you will have your answers. pray for us !!!!!

Not sure about that, I think they are going to extend this one. I think they are still too far apart.

[Furious1Auto]

Not sure about that, I think they are going to extend this one. I think they are still too far apart.

I'm surprised that they have been able to keep negotiations under wraps to this point!

[onfocus]

Someone said to look for "Red Flags" and vote no. Sure and the UAW will say it passed by 51%, I don't know about you but I ain't forgot that one yet!

[mulewright]

From what I've read recently, Wall Street is pretty much counting on the VEBA being a done deal. If a VEBA doesn't happen, the big 3's stock prices will get hammered. If the VEBA does happen, I think we can expect similar results as to when Goodyear agreed to a VEBA with the Steelworkers........ almost an immediate 15-25% gain in stock values. This could be a very lucrative time for those willing to gamble a little.

 

Speaking as a Ford shareholder and employee, I have very mixed feelings on this. As an Employee I've already voiced my opinions about the Union taking over the liability's of the VEBA. As a stock holder, I'm honestly thinking about buying an extra 10K in ford stock....because I'm fairly certain the VEBA is going to happen. As LEN_A stated, I think we all need to hope that the UAW will simply drop this huge amount of money into the laps of a tried and true, conservative, investment/accounting firm and hope for the best.

The VEBA will more than likely happen and the reason the rise in stock values is important to you and me is because not all of the money the auto companies give the UAW will be cash, there will be stock also.

[Pioneer]

http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/070910/autos_talks.html?.v=2

[Bored of Pisteon]

Detroit News

 

Detroit News - Daniel Howes opinion

 

Here's a couple more links for you to look at.

[Bored of Pisteon]

Someone said to look for "Red Flags" and vote no. Sure and the UAW will say it passed by 51%, I don't know about you but I ain't forgot that one yet!

 

 

Considering that I have no retiree health care coming. I am also concerned about the union running this thing. You guys know full well that the union is a company union and it's very likely they'll run it just like a company would. YOU DON'T KNOW.

 

But when the younger workers start getting up in age. Where will the health care funds be when the money runs out? What if the union doesn't want to disclose where these funds are going? These questions surely need to be asked! Otherwise you guys are looking for another vaseline greased pole stuck in your asses once again.