Japanese flooding the US with cheap imports

[mettech]

The big issue is the trade in cars with Japan, it seems to me trade and currency manipulation is all on a one way street un-level playing field.

 

The artificially weak yen has provided Japanese auto companies a cost advantage ranging from $3,000 on a small car to $12,000 on a luxury sport utility. This subsidy has both facilitated the expansion of Japanese companies in the U.S. and succeeded in keeping American-built automobiles out of Japan. Many in the American manufacturing sector question why the Japanese government’s extraordinary $420 billion currency manipulation program has gone unquestioned and unchallenged.

 

If the logic noted above holds true, when the U.S. Dollar falls, then the Big 3 should see sales increase.

 

"...Many in the American manufacturing sector question why the Japanese government’s extraordinary $420 billion currency manipulation program has gone unquestioned and unchallenged.."

 

The reason why people are buying the imports have nothing to do with the "currency manipulation".

 

1. Many consumers are welling to pay more (and they do) for a Toyota then for a Ford.

 

2. Do you think that Ford would be able to compete with Toyota REGARDLESS OF PRICE in Japan? If it wasn't for the NASCAR fan, UAW supporter, Ford investors or the die hard Ford buyer, Ford's sales would be in the double figures worse!!!!

 

It's all about the product and what the status of that product reflects about the owner.

[mettech]

Your link is to the Euro not the Yen, if you have an unfair playing field in Europe you get a massive fine slapped on you.

 

Microsoft just got fined $690 million by the EU just for freezing out rivals in server. US government need to give the big 3 a helping hand, and just not let the Japs crap all over them.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6998272.stm

 

"...Your link is to the Euro not the Yen..."

You didn't read it all.

 

It's not the U.S. Government's fault that the consumer here buys "Japs crap" over the Big 3.

 

You should be fixing the reason(s) why the consumer want a Toyota or Honda over a Ford.

 

A blockade of products into the U.S. A. is raising the "white flag".

 

If Buick is able to compete in China and Ford is able to compete in Europe..... What's the issue here? The consumer would rather buy a Toyota or Honda instead of a Ford!!

[Ford Jellymoulds]

If the logic noted above holds true, when the U.S. Dollar falls, then the Big 3 should see sales increase.

 

"...Many in the American manufacturing sector question why the Japanese government’s extraordinary $420 billion currency manipulation program has gone unquestioned and unchallenged.."

 

The reason why people are buying the imports have nothing to do with the "currency manipulation".

 

1. Many consumers are welling to pay more (and they do) for a Toyota then for a Ford.

 

2. Do you think that Ford would be able to compete with Toyota REGARDLESS OF PRICE in Japan? If it wasn't for the NASCAR fan, UAW supporter, Ford investors or the die hard Ford buyer, Ford's sales would be in the double figures worse!!!!

 

It's all about the product and what the status of that product reflects about the owner.

 

Consumers will end up paying a lot more if the Japanese take over the car market in the US, they can move the US Camry production to China anytime they like, in fact they have just opened up a new Camry line in China.

[mettech]

Consumers will end up paying a lot more if the Japanese take over the car market in the US, they can move the US Camry production to China anytime they like, in fact they have just opened up a new Camry line in China.

 

The Big 3 are doing the same thing....

 

The Big 3 also imports cars into the U.S.

[Furious1Auto]

The Big 3 are doing the same thing....

 

The Big 3 also imports cars into the U.S.

The domestics are not sending their profits to Tokyo!

Edited October 1, 2007 by Furious1Auto

[Ralph Greene]

Mettech is correct IMHO.

 

It's really all about the product. If the so called big 3 made what US consumers want to buy....for whatever reason....then we would not be discussing this subject on this board. And....there would be no profit or wage problems to discuss either.

 

We might be discussing why it is so unfair foreign companies can't sell vehicles in the US....just opposite from now.

[LincolnFan]

Once the big 3 get their shit in gear, I hope they start aiming for Japan. Every Japanese automanufacturer that's alive today has been bailed out by the Japanese government, I would love to see Japan going into damage control mode because Ford and GM has been selling so many cars in their closed market.

[freedomlou]

You are on the money. No one is forcing us to buy Japanese. When the Big 3 make something bigger and better, everyone may just buy it. Watch where you put your dollar!

 

In reference to the sub-title: "Japanese flooding the US with cheap imports, US government sits back does nothing to help the big 3."

 

No one in the government forced anyone in the United States to buy a "Japanese import".

 

The sales slide for the Big 3 was because the consumers in the United States wanted the Japanese product.

 

Period!!!

 

That brings up the question "Why did the change happen" and "Why does the consumer continue to buy imports?"

 

My question to anyone here is "Do you think the Big 3 sales would do any better in Japan?"

 

The issue for now isn't about "Closed Boarders".

 

It's about making a product the consumer wants more than a Japaneses import. When that issue is fixed and sales start to turn around, the Open Boarder issue can be challenged. And the challenged will be led by the consumer overseas who would rather buy a Big 3 product vs. a Honda or Toyota.

[Furious1Auto]

You are on the money. No one is forcing us to buy Japanese. When the Big 3 make something bigger and better, everyone may just buy it. Watch where you put your dollar!

What are you saying no one wants Fords? WTF they aren't last in sales!

[NickF1011]

The domestics are not sending their profits to Tokyo!

 

What profits??

[Furious1Auto]

What profits??

Antagonist!

[old_fairmont_wagon]

I know that many of you know the fun I went through trying to find an econobox a few years back that would meet my needs after my old car was flooded in Katrina. Well the story really hasn't changed...

 

The following experience is why I believe that US consumers buy imports over domestics in some cases.

 

With our family about to expand again (we're expecting our fourth child in March) we've been in the market for another minivan. We already had the short wheelbase Caravan, but, it wasn't big enough to carry 4 kids (One in an infant seat, One in a full car seat, one in a booster) their gear (a double stroller, diaper bag, school bags, etc.) and then still carry anything else useful. On top of that, this summer has been miserable as the Caravan doesn't have a rear A/C (and wasn't available with one in the SWB version at any price).

 

However, we still needed to have a second vehicle that could carry the whole family in a pinch. So, it was time to trade in the Corolla.

 

We took a look at what was on the lots around us. The Freestars are gone. The GM minivans were completely unappealing, and, were priced horribly given the content, features, safety ratings, etc. Add in the fact that my wife REALLY didn't like the looks of them, and they were off the list. That left us with dodge/Chrysler. The had a stack of rebates on the 2007 Grand Caravan ($4500 factory, $500 from our insurance company, $500 additional dealer incentives) and they weren't priced that badly. Add in that the 3.3L V6 in the LWB caravan gets fairly decent gas mileage, and it was a winner for us. We started trying a few dealers that we knew still had them. We would find their inventory online, find an SE that had just the features we wanted, and would have a decent transaction price, and scheduled to go in and see it. We'd get there, and they'd have $2000 in supplemental stuff tacked onto the window sticker (protective paint coating, pin stripe (that was barely visible, etc). Then, after negotiating as much of that away as they would do, then, they'd low ball the crap out of us on the Corolla trade in. After running us through the mill on that, we'd get to financing, and they'd find us one lender that would only lend to us on condition that we put down some obnoxious amount of down payement (we only had $1500 available, which, when coupled with the $5500 in rebates was almost $7000 worth of "down payment" in the lenders eyes). It seems that they weren't willing to lend us much more than around $20000 on the caravans we were looking at. This was exactly the same problem we had when we got the corolla.

 

So, we then took a look at what else was out there in the minivan market. Nissan's Quest, Honda's Odyssey, Toyota's Sienna, and Hyundai Kia's entourageona. My wife said she wouldn't be caught dead in a Hyundai/Kia. The Honda dealers all wanted a $1500 "market adjustment" over the base price on their Odyssey's (Making the LX over $27,000). So, it was down to the Nissan and Toyota. We went over to the Toyota dealership that sold us the Corolla. They had one last 2007 on their lot. It was carrying a $1500 rebate. It was also stickering for the same amount as the Grand Caravan models we had looked at, with a few differences. The sienna had a much better powertrain (For 07, the Sienna got the 3.5L from the Camry and has a 5AT, the Grand Caravan has a 3.3L ohv v6 with a 4AT and gets worse gas mileage), the Sienna has the better safety ratings, and more complete airbag package (full side curtains standard, only optional on the Grand Caravan), it has the aux input for my wife's I-pod, roll down second row windows, center front row console/table, and it has noticeably more interior room. The only advantages that the Grand Caravan had were center row stow and go, and the lifetime powertrain warranty, though, judging by how many transmission we've been through on the existing caravan, we'd probably be making a lot of use of it.

 

To top all of that off, they had only a $1000 markup on the MSRP, which they immediately came fully off of, then came off an additional $500 on the sticker, gave me a $1500 better trade in on my Corolla (making it almost a wash) and, found me a lender that was willing to loan me enough money to purchase the vehicle (they were willing to loan a full $4000 more on the Sienna than they were on the Grand Caravan) at a lower interest rate, which enabled me to stay in budget while still negotiating an extension of the bumper to bumper warranty to 6 years or 72000 miles.

 

Comparing the two vans side by side, the Sienna is miles ahead of the Grand Caravan in ride, handling, power, effiicency, and fit and finish. We tried to buy domestic, but, weren't able to. Because of that, we came away with what appears to be a better vehicle on the surface. We can only let time tell if it is a better vehicle overall. But, judging by the problems that our 2002 Caravan has given us, I can't see this one being any worse.

[Kev-Mo]

Well if it helps any, I make sure all the contractors I hire drive real domestic trucks. I will not hire anyone with a Titan or Tundra to do work at any of my properties. And they are aware that their subs BETTER not drive any Titan/Tundras to the worksites either.

 

 

 

That's awesome! I do same thing for work on my modest home. I call a contractor for a quote, and tell him not to bother showing up if he is driving a Japanese truck. I will only give the business to folks who drive American vehicles.

 

My reason for this is simple: I afford them the opportunity to make a living by working on my house, and paying them a fair price. I expect them to afford other Americans to the opportunity to make a living with the money I am giving them.

 

Some people are really freaked out by this!

[lfeg]

You cannot flood the market if the customers do not buy the product. Toyota, Honda, and Nissan have just done a better job at giving the consumer in the US what they want. It used to be (30 and more years ago) that the domestics offered just about any style of car you could want, and the new cars did not look like the 3 year old models on the used car lot. My how things have changed. Now the domestics have showrooms full of cars that look just like what is out on the front line of their used car lots, have very limited choices ( Just how many body styles does the 08 Focus come in? How about the Fusion? Want something other than a 4 door sedan - tough.) In the name of "product rationalization" the domestics have almost reached the point of the fungible car - any car you want as long as it suits our production plan (sounds awful soviet to me). My one neice recently purchased a Honda Civic (her first brand new car). She asked my advice while she was looking and she did look at both foreign and domestic offerings. I asked her why the Honda and her reasons were many - a few were:

The Focus was nice, but it still looks like it did when she was in high school (graduated in 01), and it was "buzzy"

The Cobalt was sort of a generic car, sort of the automotive equivalent of the generic canned goods aisle at the grocery store.

The Dodge and Chrysler offerings looked like senior citizen specials.

Her old car, a hand me down Civic, about 12 years old with over 180K miles, never gave her a problem and did not cost much to run in the 5 years she had it.

The Honda dealer (where she had the old Civic serviced) didn't treat her as a "dumb girl", but like a real person unlike the domestic dealers. (I know this is not a manufacturers issue, but it is important)

The new Civic looks good, not like the 5 year old ones.

 

This is from someone who will be a potential customer for a long time. To get their market back the domestics will have to change a models style every few years (remember the 50s and 60s), have several body styles in each model range (mix them up - coupes, sedans, hatchbacks, wagons, convertibles. not all in each model, but more than one), establish a reputation for quality and reliability (this will take years - they took 30 years to establish the poor reputation they have now), and whip their dealer networks into shape. They have to get to the point whare the Japanese carmakers are today - where the customer is willing to pay what they ask.

[Ford Jellymoulds]

You cannot flood the market if the customers do not buy the product. Toyota, Honda, and Nissan have just done a better job at giving the consumer in the US what they want. It used to be (30 and more years ago) that the domestics offered just about any style of car you could want, and the new cars did not look like the 3 year old models on the used car lot. My how things have changed. Now the domestics have showrooms full of cars that look just like what is out on the front line of their used car lots, have very limited choices ( Just how many body styles does the 08 Focus come in? How about the Fusion? Want something other than a 4 door sedan - tough.) In the name of "product rationalization" the domestics have almost reached the point of the fungible car - any car you want as long as it suits our production plan (sounds awful soviet to me). My one neice recently purchased a Honda Civic (her first brand new car). She asked my advice while she was looking and she did look at both foreign and domestic offerings. I asked her why the Honda and her reasons were many - a few were:

The Focus was nice, but it still looks like it did when she was in high school (graduated in 01), and it was "buzzy"

The Cobalt was sort of a generic car, sort of the automotive equivalent of the generic canned goods aisle at the grocery store.

The Dodge and Chrysler offerings looked like senior citizen specials.

Her old car, a hand me down Civic, about 12 years old with over 180K miles, never gave her a problem and did not cost much to run in the 5 years she had it.

The Honda dealer (where she had the old Civic serviced) didn't treat her as a "dumb girl", but like a real person unlike the domestic dealers. (I know this is not a manufacturers issue, but it is important)

The new Civic looks good, not like the 5 year old ones.

 

This is from someone who will be a potential customer for a long time. To get their market back the domestics will have to change a models style every few years (remember the 50s and 60s), have several body styles in each model range (mix them up - coupes, sedans, hatchbacks, wagons, convertibles. not all in each model, but more than one), establish a reputation for quality and reliability (this will take years - they took 30 years to establish the poor reputation they have now), and whip their dealer networks into shape. They have to get to the point whare the Japanese carmakers are today - where the customer is willing to pay what they ask.

 

I can understand what you are saying, l agree that just about every Japanese car can make it to 180,000 miles with out very much in the way of problems, and most folk do become attached to them, and would go back and reward the manufacturer for good reliable service they got from the old car that always got you from A to B. But GM & Ford have caught here up now, and its very rare that you see modern cars of any make broken down these days, l have never stop moaning about how much the Focus still looks the same, the car has become so boring & stale, and even the new 08 model look the same as the old model that offers nothing new except more boredom on 4 wheels, you can blame that on CAD & computers, and they were not around in the 50's and 60's. Ford are to blame, the computers are going to punch the same Ford Focus shape out in the year 9999, its about time Ford dumped computers and put a bit more of a human input into car design.

[Furious1Auto]

That's awesome! I do same thing for work on my modest home. I call a contractor for a quote, and tell him not to bother showing up if he is driving a Japanese truck. I will only give the business to folks who drive American vehicles.

 

My reason for this is simple: I afford them the opportunity to make a living by working on my house, and paying them a fair price. I expect them to afford other Americans to the opportunity to make a living with the money I am giving them.

 

Some people are really freaked out by this!

It is what it is, I do the same! If you can't support me than I can't support you!

[TStag]

Why doesn't the US export more cars? Well in Europe we don't buy them for the following reasons:

 

- Pricing - In the UK they were trying to sell us a Jeep Cherokee for the same price as an LR3, which is a joke when you consider that the Cherokee can't hold a candle to a single European or Japanese brand for interior finishes

- Styling

- Percieved reliability issues

- Choice of engines

 

In contrast EU car makers do sucessfully export to Japan. Look at Nissan and how their own UK plant exports very sucessfully back home. Look at all the EU luxury brands too.

 

Sorry but the US has a low dollar, than Euro/ Pound and much lower wages to pay than in Europe, and yet it's poorer at exporting cars. Time to ask a few home truths.....stop moaning.

[BlackHorse]

Well while we are all on the "Bash US products" band wagon let's point out some truths as well shall we.

 

Percieved reliability may be one thing, but in real world reliability American cars tend to be more reliable then their European competition. So if you guys across the pond want to "pretend" to yourselves that your cars are all that, go ahead. In point of fact the quality of build of American cars as a general rule is easily on par with the best cars in the world even the mighty Toyota and Honda. Again, just because a lot of people don't want to believe that, doesn't make it any less true. Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers, or in this case, just ill informed crowd followers.

 

The lack of export of American made goods to other countries has less to do with the quality of those goods and a lot more to do with the fact that American coporations have moved their production facilities out of country. It doesn't surprise me that a Jeep Cherokee costs as much as an LR3 in Europe. Do you have any idea what a C1 Focus would cost here? Nobody would buy the damn thing.

 

Also I'm not sure holding up the fact that Nissan exports cars from Europe back to its own country is a good example of exporting European products. Japanesse consumers tend to be fiercely loyal to Japanesse brands.

[lfeg]

... these days, l have never stop moaning about how much the Focus still looks the same, the car has become so boring & stale, and even the new 08 model look the same as the old model that offers nothing new except more boredom on 4 wheels, you can blame that on CAD & computers, and they were not around in the 50's and 60's. Ford are to blame, the computers are going to punch the same Ford Focus shape out in the year 9999, its about time Ford dumped computers and put a bit more of a human input into car design.

 

 

Do not blame CAD and computers, they are just tools. Blame the "exeutive brain trust", lazy designers, poor product planners, etc. If you have a contractor that does shoddy work is it the fault of the hammer, or the guy using it? Same with CAD.

[Ford Jellymoulds]

Why doesn't the US export more cars? Well in Europe we don't buy them for the following reasons:

 

What a load off rubbish you do write, the only reason the big 3 don't export to Europe is that nobody could afford to run them over here, poor MPG is main reason, and don't forget we are paying over $10 a gallon in the UK, big cars are being taxed off the roads T-Stag don't give me that bull, most of the Chelsea tractor brigade have long moved out of Land Rovers in to the Toyota Prius and you know it.

[Ford Jellymoulds]

Do not blame CAD and computers, they are just tools. Blame the "exeutive brain trust", lazy designers, poor product planners, etc. If you have a contractor that does shoddy work is it the fault of the hammer, or the guy using it? Same with CAD.

 

Classic Mustangs and F-Series both have bags of character and both are market leaders in their class, when you start to complete with Japanese on bland boredom they will always win, the Camry is a classic case. Maybe Americans buyers are punishing Ford, and buying Japanese for producing computer generic bland car designs in this class. Computers will still punch out a Focus in the year 9999 so what will change here, not unless somebody rewrites the binary code.

[kevinb120]

Japan Manipulates Currency to Bail Out Japanese Auto Manufacturers, $3,000 per car might be the first thing that maybe the US government might help the US big three with.

 

US government needs to create a level playing field when selling cars, Japanese are making $3000 to $12,000 per car in currency manipulation.

http://www.levelfieldinstitute.org/fact-sheet-yen.htm

 

I have been saying this for years. US exports over there cost a fortune. Its a silent tariff against us we do not respond to. But they pay the right congressmen well enough so they don't care about it. Anyone can buy billions in profit from a US congressman for a few hundred thousand untaxed dollars in an offshore account. And they have re-written the laws so that the only one who can police them is themselves.

Edited October 1, 2007 by kevinb120

[suv_guy_19]

I have been saying this for years. US exports over there cost a fortune. Its a silent tariff against us we do not respond to. But they pay the right congressmen well enough so they don't care about it. Anyone can buy billions in profit from a US congressman for a few hundred thousand untaxed dollars in an offshore account. And they have re-written the laws so that the only one who can police them is themselves.

 

 

I see that paranoia and cynicism is migrating over to this discussion forum as well....

[Ralph Greene]

World currency markets are too large for one company, or even one country, to influence very long. But the myths persist.

 

Even the US banking system cannot, with all it power, make the dollar where we wish it. The markets are just too large and diverse for one entity to swing it.

[suv_guy_19]

World currency markets are too large for one company, or even one country, to influence very long. But the myths persist.

 

Even the US banking system cannot, with all it power, make the dollar where we wish it. The markets are just too large and diverse for one entity to swing it.

 

 

A country is not really worried about directly influencing things such as currency, but rather regulating inflation.