S.T.A.P. saved?

[Roadrunner]

On topic,

If you're building high margin vehicles, of course you can have a one shift plant but it's very dependant on market support.

The Town car needs a big refresh to guarantee this, could work for other panthers too in the short term.

 

There's a whole taxi-transport category called a Town Car. What you get is... a Lincoln Town Car and chaffeur.

 

A refresh doesn't seem worthwhile for a fleet vehicle like this.

 

What I couldn't figure out is why a Town Car was cheaper than a regular taxi in Seattle going from Sea-Tac Airport to the Univ. of Wash.

Retroman, any insight ?

Edited October 18, 2007 by Roadrunner

[pcsario]

Want a second shift? Put a new dash in them, along with the 3-valve 4.6 and a 6-speed. And the 3.5, if supply allows, as it's lighter and has more power than the 2-v 4.6

 

Yeah I agree, lets waste hundreds of millions on updating a fleet car, eliminating profits derived from the paid for tooling.

 

Then the Panther "loyalists" can keep buying them in auctions and used car lots, saying what a great deal a Panther is.

 

Works like a charm every time.

[ShockFX]

Yeah I agree, lets waste hundreds of millions on updating a fleet car, eliminating profits derived from the paid for tooling.

 

Then the Panther "loyalists" can keep buying them in auctions and used car lots, saying what a great deal a Panther is.

 

Works like a charm every time.

 

Lol, the chassis is from like 1979. Why bother arguing with people that don't understand brand and product equity?

[NickF1011]

Yeah I agree, lets waste hundreds of millions on updating a fleet car, eliminating profits derived from the paid for tooling.

 

Then the Panther "loyalists" can keep buying them in auctions and used car lots, saying what a great deal a Panther is.

 

Works like a charm every time.

 

 

I may disagree with you on a lot of things, but we definitely see eye-to-eye on the Panthers!

[ute]

Austin ...you have it a bit wrong ...STAP was one of the first atempts at a "flex" plant we built the escort/lynx/exp/ln7 with the frame crown victoria / GM

 

so it was front wheel drive 4cyl unibody with the other units being body on frame V8

 

we built the 2/4 door escort and wagon also the 2/4 door wagon vicky / GM

 

the moon buggy area is still there for install of engine from underneith the unit

 

the clam shells are still capable of wheel base from whatever the escort was to lwb Vicky/ TC

 

skids are still for the same all platform setup for paint shop

 

the only "hard setup" is in body whhere the KD is now gone ...but i'm sure that the Kawasakis could be programed to handle this

 

so imo its up to the glass house as to what they do

 

as for the falcon .. w don't need that headache ...sure a great vehicle but look what happened to GM when they brought the holden here !!!!!!!!

pontiac..could not capatalize on the mystique that was holden even calling it a gto .....how many did they sell last year 8-10k ????

 

it just dosn't transfer to NA

[NickF1011]

as for the falcon .. w don't need that headache ...sure a great vehicle but look what happened to GM when they brought the holden here !!!!!!!!

pontiac..could not capatalize on the mystique that was holden even calling it a gto .....how many did they sell last year 8-10k ????

 

it just dosn't transfer to NA

 

Nobody (well, hardly anybody) is recommending that Ford sell the Falcon here as it is. It likely wouldn't do any better than the GTO did, agreed. What they ARE apparently planning is to develop a global RWD architecture (Huntsman) that could underpin a slew of vehicles (Mustang and Panther replacements just for starters), which would make the investment required to produce them in NA almost a no-brainer.

 

In some sense, it's exactly what GM is now doing with Zeta. The current Commodore (Monaro and GTO are no more) is built on the Zeta chassis which will also underpin the upcoming Camaro, G8, and Impala. The G8 will be imported here until GM's Oshawa 2 plant is tooled to produce Zeta, at which time it may move to our shores for production if volumes justify it.

Edited October 18, 2007 by NickF1011

[suv_guy_19]

Yeah I agree, lets waste hundreds of millions on updating a fleet car, eliminating profits derived from the paid for tooling.

 

Then the Panther "loyalists" can keep buying them in auctions and used car lots, saying what a great deal a Panther is.

 

Works like a charm every time.

 

 

Yep I agree with Nick, you got this right anyway. Thats ok, you were due for one

[jpd80]

as for the falcon .. w don't need that headache ...sure a great vehicle but look what happened to GM when they brought the holden here !!!!!!!!

pontiac..could not capatalize on the mystique that was holden even calling it a gto .....how many did they sell last year 8-10k ????

 

it just dosn't transfer to NA

Global RWD is not "Falcon" as such. It's really about RWD cars using common bits like

powertrains, Electrical systems and suspension modules - all the bits you don't see.

Remember we're talking about Broadmeadows, Flat Rock and STAP - only 3 plants build RWD sedans and CUVs.

 

The GTO was initially sold in the wrong areas, completely different demographic to traditional GTO buyers.

When stocks were transferred to California and as Lutz called it "the smile States" they sold well.

GM have learned from this blunder and won't make the same mistake twice.

 

Holden are about to send between 30,000 and 50,000 Pontiac G8s to your shores.

The zetas are much better and are going to really please drivers.

A 4-door sedan is a much bigger market for them.

[1520 man]

Broadmeadows production is down to about 77,000/year - normally about 90,000 so we really need the Orion Falcon bad.

I'd suspect that if future panthers use common engine/powertrains and some electrical systems, they'll get by for the present

even if Production approaches 100K/year. The truth is GRWD needs all three partners to work together. North America cannot

see the potential of RWD products yet but if done right could lure a whole lot of folks that wouldn't normally consider buying a Ford.

It's that market we need to tap.

 

Who knows, a panther based Crown Victoria with a Gilette grille, Duratec 37 and 6-speed auto might be all that's needed for now.

 

Where is Broadmeadows, and what vehicle do they produce?

[jpd80]

Where is Broadmeadows, and what vehicle do they produce?

Melbourne, Australia - home of the Falcon and it derivatives.

No disrespect to panther cars intended.

 

 

 

Edited October 18, 2007 by jpd80

[rkisler]

Austin ...you have it a bit wrong ...STAP was one of the first atempts at a "flex" plant we built the escort/lynx/exp/ln7 with the frame crown victoria / GM

 

so it was front wheel drive 4cyl unibody with the other units being body on frame V8

 

we built the 2/4 door escort and wagon also the 2/4 door wagon vicky / GM

 

the moon buggy area is still there for install of engine from underneith the unit

 

the clam shells are still capable of wheel base from whatever the escort was to lwb Vicky/ TC

 

skids are still for the same all platform setup for paint shop

 

the only "hard setup" is in body whhere the KD is now gone ...but i'm sure that the Kawasakis could be programed to handle this

 

so imo its up to the glass house as to what they do

 

as for the falcon .. w don't need that headache ...sure a great vehicle but look what happened to GM when they brought the holden here !!!!!!!!

pontiac..could not capatalize on the mystique that was holden even calling it a gto .....how many did they sell last year 8-10k ????

 

it just dosn't transfer to NA

 

ute,

 

You are of course correct that St. Thomas produced both the Escort and BOF Panthers and some of the flexible tooling remains. My comments were primarily on the difficulty/expense of bringing another Panther into the plant (Town Car). And of course the inevitable decline/death of the Panther platform which I would think is in 4 years or so. On the bright side, it lasted about 20 years longer than Ford thought it would!

 

If Ford decides to initiate a global RWD platform, I would think that St. Thomas would certainly be in the hunt to capture it. But if Ford does go that direction and it goes to St. Thomas, I'm sure the plant would be set up in a much more flexible manner to potentially accomodate a variety of bodystyles (sedan/mustang/SUV?) and maybe brands (Ford/Lincoln?). Paint could probably be preserved, and maybe some chassis?, but the body shop(s) would have to be all new I would think.

 

With Ford's strapped resources, conversion of a plant or a greenfield plant is a rare event. So if there is a global RWD platform produced in North America, there is going to be a lot of competitive bidding -- both in terms of incentives from governments and flexible work agreements.

[Pioneer]

That thing is sweet!

[suv_guy_19]

ute,

 

You are of course correct that St. Thomas produced both the Escort and BOF Panthers and some of the flexible tooling remains. My comments were primarily on the difficulty/expense of bringing another Panther into the plant (Town Car). And of course the inevitable decline/death of the Panther platform which I would think is in 4 years or so. On the bright side, it lasted about 20 years longer than Ford thought it would!

 

If Ford decides to initiate a global RWD platform, I would think that St. Thomas would certainly be in the hunt to capture it. But if Ford does go that direction and it goes to St. Thomas, I'm sure the plant would be set up in a much more flexible manner to potentially accomodate a variety of bodystyles (sedan/mustang/SUV?) and maybe brands (Ford/Lincoln?). Paint could probably be preserved, and maybe some chassis?, but the body shop(s) would have to be all new I would think.

 

With Ford's strapped resources, conversion of a plant or a greenfield plant is a rare event. So if there is a global RWD platform produced in North America, there is going to be a lot of competitive bidding -- both in terms of incentives from governments and flexible work agreements.

 

 

Given the importance of manufacturing jobs to Ontario, the governments of Ontario and Canada might make it worth while.

[Pioneer]

Given the importance of manufacturing jobs to Ontario, the governments of Ontario and Canada might make it worth while.

 

The same thing can be said for Wixom, Twin Cities, Norfolk, Atlanta, and St. Louis.

 

If Ford really wants to close a facility, any government subsidies will not change their minds.

[SysEng]

http://www.thestar.com/Business/article/267542

 

This is relatively old news. Only interesting comment is

that the profit margins are so high that STAP will survive

anything.

 

What is interesting is the possibility that there will be a "replacement"

for the "panthers" ... or one (!) of an update for 2011. That has

something to do with direct competition from... Chevrolet... :o

[rkisler]

This is relatively old news. Only interesting comment is

that the profit margins are so high that STAP will survive

anything.

 

What is interesting is the possibility that there will be a "replacement"

for the "panthers" ... or one (!) of an update for 2011. That has

something to do with direct competition from... Chevrolet... :o

 

If Ford could keep one shift operating at full capacity (with overtime), then I assume STAP would be profitable, although that is of course not the optimal operating pattern.

 

The problems with Panther are not necessarily where it is now, but where it has to be in the future. There is going to be continuing erosion of the cop car business from Dodge as their retail volume drops on the 300/Charger family and they are looking for business. It would cost a lot to do anything to the Panther to make it resemble a modern automobile; whether this type of action would be justified by additional volume is highly suspect. As I said previously, people are not moving into these large American sedans like they were in the past. IMHO that's not likely to change. I'm not trying to dis those who enjoy Panthers, but they are becoming a rarer breed.

 

All of which says that this Panther single shift situation might be OK for the next couple of years but not beyond.

[ute]

agreed t is alot to do with what the LEO's want....it doees seem like Marathon all over again

 

Bloomburg is another problem....hybrid what ???? what vehicle in the line up can match the CV taxi (rear seat leg room....high millage engine 500,000 mile ability)...bring back the NG CV would this be hybrid enough??

 

is the Magnum enough for the LEO's ??? i don't think so ..small/slow/fragile

 

will STAP survive as a DSO only plant ...as long as Ford makes money there........ the canadian dollar is hurting the plant now

[jpd80]

Simply put.

RWD is not a high priority for Ford, it's important to maintain the Mustang's freshness and products that people will buy. How far Ford is prepared to invest will be known sometime next year after the 2009 models are released.

 

Another thing to consider is CAFE, at the moment, the panthers are still considered domestic fleet.

 

If Ford imported Australian Falcons and Fairlanes to replace the panthers, that's a perfect way to improve domestic CAFE numbers while the Aussies would be offset by South American Fiestas.

 

Get 130K large RWD sedans off your domestic CAFE books and the figures sure looks appealing.

Edited October 19, 2007 by jpd80

[NickF1011]

Simply put.

RWD is not a high priority for Ford, it's important to maintain the Mustang's freshness and products that people will buy. How far Ford is prepared to invest will be known sometime next year after the 2009 models are released.

 

Another thing to consider is CAFE, at the moment, the panthers are still considered domestic fleet.

 

If Ford imported Australian Falcons and Fairlanes to replace the panthers, that's a perfect way to improve domestic CAFE numbers while the Aussies would be offset by South American Fiestas.

 

Get 130K large RWD sedans off your domestic CAFE books and the figures sure looks appealing.

 

Importing 130K large RWD sedans from Australia would be a logistics nightmare. It was messy enough when GM just shipped 18-20,000 GTO's here a year.

[oac bodyboy]

PLEASE EVERYONE LISTEN TO ME!!! I HOPE AND PREY THAT STAP REMAINS IN THE FORD SYSTEM BUT IT WON'T!!!!!

 

THIS IS WHY----- WHEN THE C.A.W. NEGOTIATED THE BUYOUTS, WAS BECAUSE THE COMPANY TOLD THEM THAT THE SECOND SHIFT WAS PERMANENT JOB LOSS,,, MEANING TO NEVER RETURN!!!!!! THE TOWN CAR IS A BAND-AID TO A BIGGER PROBLEM, THAT IS IT. THAT IS ALL. BUZZ HAS ALREADY TOLD THE COMPANY TO TURN STAP INTO A LOW BUDGET PLANT. THAT MEANS LOWER WAGES!!!!!!

 

THOSE ARE THE FACTS. JUST ASK WHITEY MCDONALD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[99Pony]

PLEASE EVERYONE LISTEN TO ME!!! I HOPE AND PREY THAT STAP REMAINS IN THE FORD SYSTEM BUT IT WON'T!!!!!

 

THIS IS WHY----- WHEN THE C.A.W. NEGOTIATED THE BUYOUTS, WAS BECAUSE THE COMPANY TOLD THEM THAT THE SECOND SHIFT WAS PERMANENT JOB LOSS,,, MEANING TO NEVER RETURN!!!!!! THE TOWN CAR IS A BAND-AID TO A BIGGER PROBLEM, THAT IS IT. THAT IS ALL. BUZZ HAS ALREADY TOLD THE COMPANY TO TURN STAP INTO A LOW BUDGET PLANT. THAT MEANS LOWER WAGES!!!!!!

 

THOSE ARE THE FACTS. JUST ASK WHITEY MCDONALD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why are you yelling? LOL!

[NickF1011]

Why are you yelling? LOL!

 

Like most people who are "slow", he has difficulty choosing an acceptable speaking volume.

[silvrsvt]

Get 130K large RWD sedans off your domestic CAFE books and the figures sure looks appealing.

 

From my understanding, and this goes back years ago, the Panthers have less then 75% domestic content in the, thus they are exempt from CAFE regulations.

[oac bodyboy]

Why are you yelling? LOL!

 

 

SO EVERYONE CAN HEAR ME FROM OAKVILLE. LOL

[NickF1011]

From my understanding, and this goes back years ago, the Panthers have less then 75% domestic content in the, thus they are exempt from CAFE regulations.

 

What the heck does CAFE have to do with domestic content? Isn't CAFE solely based on point of sale, not point of production? Why do automakers like Porsche and BMW still have to meet CAFE? Their vehicles are more or less 0% domestic content. Wouldn't their entire lineup be exempt then? Obviously they aren't, as BMW has paid hefty CAFE fines in recent years.