Nissan Still Looking for American Partner

[rmc523]

There is nothing to gain by partnering with Nissan. Hyundai or KIA, especially KIA, would be a better partner. Both need trucks, and Ford needs minivans and small cars.

 

Hyundai and Kia are really the same company basically (at least they do pretty much everything together now)

[rmc523]

I don't think a Ford-Renault-Nissan venture will work, as they have different portfolios, with the exception of the Altima and Fusion. So I'm not sure what they can bring to Ford to help in these desperate times.

I had suggested this about a year ago, and I will say it again. I would prefer to see a Ford-VW venture. Ford could use VW's expertise in diesels to help in North America. We can give VW a mid-size and full size truck platform for North America.

How kool would that be. Under controlling company you could have:

 

Ford, Lincoln, Mercury, Volvo, Mazda, Jaguar, Land Rover, VW, Lamborghini, Bugatti, Skoda, Audi. That would truly be the biggest automaker in the world and they would be a global competitor.

 

1) Ford, VW, Mercury, Mazda, Skoda (share platform and engines)

2) Lincoln, Volvo, Audi, Jaguar, Land Rover (share platform and engines)

3) Lamborgini and Bugatti (share platform and engines)

 

But this probably will not happen, as the German courts have cleared the way for Porsche to take over VW.

 

It would of work I think.

 

I was going to say, at this point, you'd have to go through Porsche to do this.

[Pioneer]

Hyundai and Kia are really the same company basically (at least they do pretty much everything together now)

 

Then partner with both. Either they, or Honda would be the best to partner with from Ford's perspective.

 

Now, the question remains, why would anybody want to partner with Ford? The only thing we can offer a partner is trucks. Do you honestly think Ford is going to share any of it's proprietary knowledge of trucks, or re-badge an F-series for a competitor?

[rmc523]

Everything people keep posting that Ford would gain from a merger, Ford has proven capable of doing in countries other than NA. Ford has top notch diesels, small cars, midsize cars, RWD cars, etc outside of FordNA. Ford doesn't need a merger, it needs to better leverage everything they are capable of in other countries. This is Mullaly's plan to move to global platforms. There is nothing Ford gains from a merger.

 

I agree.

[rmc523]

Haha. Ford tried to buy BMW in the lat 90s but the deal fell through when the Ford family insisted on complete control.

 

I didn't know that. That would've been interesting.....I wonder where both companies would be today had that happened?

 

Then Ford would today be Ford, Lincoln, Mercury, Mazda, Volvo, Jaguar, Land Rover, Aston Martin, Mini, BMW, and Rolls-Royce. (I'd assume Ford wouldn't have had to sell Aston)

 

I'd say they'd have pretty much EVERY market covered (if not overlapped) w/ that lineup.

 

Like I said, I didn't know that, so I dont know if BMW's purchase was replaced by another purchase though.

[rmc523]

Then partner with both. Either they, or Honda would be the best to partner with from Ford's perspective.

 

Now, the question remains, why would anybody want to partner with Ford? The only thing we can offer a partner is trucks. Do you honestly think Ford is going to share any of it's proprietary knowledge of trucks, or re-badge an F-series for a competitor?

 

I knew the Hyundai/Kia relationship was something like that, didnt know for sure though.

 

I agree w/ you're second point as well. I doubt Ford would reveal much if any of it's truck knowledge. It would be stupid to.

[jpd80]

Everything people keep posting that Ford would gain from a merger, Ford has proven capable of doing in countries other than NA. Ford has top notch diesels, small cars, midsize cars, RWD cars, etc outside of FordNA. Ford doesn't need a merger, it needs to better leverage everything they are capable of in other countries. This is Mullaly's plan to move to global platforms. There is nothing Ford gains from a merger.

Good Post.

[TStag]

VW also own Bentley and Seat. They are also in talks to buy Proton/ Lotus. I think they also own Scania trucks and are talking about merging that with Mann trucks too.

 

A VW Ford Merger would be very interesting but it will only happen if Porsche want it to.

[RichardJensen]

A VW Ford Merger would be very interesting

Yeah interesting like a train wreck.

[Ralph Greene]

I share his view of using electric cars for much future driving.

 

My family needs one large sedan or SUV-minivan for longer trips and when we need to haul stuff or people. Gasoline or diesel.

 

Then we need 1-2 small electric cars for most of our 10-30 mile round trips, where it's just 1-2 people with light load....like my wife's daily trips as she makes the rounds from one store to another. But it does need AC and needs to go at least 45 MPH.

 

Then I may still keep a toy Mustang around for when I need/want that. But the electric car would probably do over half our driving. I'm ready to buy one now.

 

Go visit the "Villages" in N Central Florida. A town of 50,000-60,000 people. That's how they all get around town on special designated paths/roads for them which can double as bike paths as well. They mostly all use hi end modified golf carts, which could be improved on a lot for just transportation. It's coming folks.

Edited October 27, 2007 by Ralph Greene

[FordBuyer]

I share his view of using electric cars for much future driving.

 

My family needs one large sedan or SUV-minivan for longer trips and when we need to haul stuff or people. Gasoline or diesel.

 

Then we need 1-2 small electric cars for most of our 10-30 mile round trips, where it's just 1-2 people with light load....like my wife's daily trips as she makes the rounds from one store to another. But it does need AC and needs to go at least 45 MPH.

 

Then I may still keep a toy Mustang around for when I need/want that. But the electric car would probably do over half our driving. I'm ready to buy one now.

 

Go visit the "Villages" in N Central Florida. A town of 50,000-60,000 people. That's how they all get around town on special designated paths/roads for them which can double as bike paths as well. It's coming folks.

 

 

I'm interested in the full hybrid Fusion due out next year sometime. I have no idea how many Ford can produce, but I doubt many like with full hybird Escape. But I live in small town where 95% of the streets have 25 mph limit and strictly enforced. So a full hybrid would be nice in that just running around here I would never be using the gasoline motor, just the electric motor. Only when I go onto the main higher speed roads would I be using the gasoline power. So if I go up to grocery store, 80% of trip would be electric and thus use little gas and hardly any carbon footprint. Hopefully, ford can solve supplier problem and produce more since Escape hybrid will be on road for at least four years by then. I know Ford moves slow, but hopefully are speeding up a little. If not, everyone will blow past Ford concerning hybrids. And don't forget, Nissan is lining up supplier for lithium batteries.

[Ralph Greene]

Fordbuyer....We think alike.

 

I'm not against 500 HP Mustangs. Big V8 SUV's when you need them. Trucks when you need them, etc. But for most of our urban driving, I could use a small efficient car. In the Villages, they park 3-4 carts in each regular car parking space in their down town areas. You don't need a huge car parking lot in front of restaurants and stores. It's really nice.

 

 

I am in no way saying people should not have larger vehicles for where they are needed. And there are folks living out where electric cars are not practical.

 

But us city folks could sure make a difference in our wallets and the use of scarce resources with them.

Edited October 27, 2007 by Ralph Greene

[RichardJensen]

hardly any carbon footprint.

Only if you live someplace where the electricity comes from a dam.

[Ralph Greene]

The above is why I really think Ford and others future competition is really from a direction they are not looking.

 

I expect some golf cart manufacturer to figure out how to market to this new need easier than traditional car manufacturers can adapt. After all, golf cart manufacturers (or a similar business), know how to make a simple electric car profitable. I doubt if the traditional car companies know how to make a profit on one of these. You sure don't need the infrastructure or labor force of the big three to make them.

 

While these kind of vehicles are not yet practical or popular in most of US, there are many towns in Florida now (also Texas, Arizona and California) where that's how you get around. Over time, I expect this use to expand for short trip use. There are issues of culture (Bubba), distance, weather, etc to overcome in some areas.

Edited October 27, 2007 by Ralph Greene

[TomServo92]

Only if you live someplace where the electricity comes from a dam.

 

Or a windmill farm.

[RichardJensen]

Or a windmill farm.

Those things are u-g-l-y.

 

Actually, I can't find an adjective of suitable depth to express my dislike for windmill farms.

 

In order to store nuclear waste at their plant near the Twin Cities, Xcel energy had to build them in Minnesota. Now they line the once (and occasionally still) beautiful ridge between the Mississippi and Missouri watersheds. Hundreds of miles of bluffs and ravines from Lake Benton to Worthington filled with things that flaunt their disconnection with the natural landscape.

 

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And since there is so much difference between a passenger cars and golf carts, I doubt any golf cart mfr. (working on golf cart profit margins) is going to be producing a viable passenger car any time soon.

[Ralph Greene]

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And since there is so much difference between a passenger cars and golf carts, I doubt any golf cart mfr. (working on golf cart profit margins) is going to be producing a viable passenger car any time soon.

 

 

True....But I bet Ford is thinking about this subject as well. They see shrinking sales in the future, and maybe it's not all from traditional competition.

 

I'm not saying anyone will be forced by government to give up their traditional vehicles. A rancher in Wyoming living 50 miles from nearest grocery store will still need his PSD F250. But a lot of us living in urban areas, will, over time, change what we get around in. It may become difficult to find a place to park a crew cab in a city. You can see the future now....in some places. City planners also plan for this future. Economic forces may make us change, and not government.

 

I really don't see how a large capital intensive infrastructure company with expensive UAW workforce can compete for this segment of the future market. Ford may just be a truck manufacturer or something. Or specialty car maker like Mustangs. Maybe as much as 1/2 the traditional market goes away sooner than some expect.

 

Maybe Nissan sees this as well. For sure they know they can't produce really cheap cars (and compete) in Fords plants.

 

I currently figure each car in our family costs almost $10,000 per year to own. That includes depreciation costs, opportunity costs, maintenance, Insurance, and fuel. We usually own 3, sometimes 4 cars. I'm naturally interested in cutting down these expenses and am receptive to these new ideas. If it helps the environment a tad, that's a bonus.

[Ralph Greene]

I also predict that in my lifetime (I'm 66), the mid eastern countries will come begging to us to buy their crude. We won't need them forever (we will get all we need from NA), but they will sure need us because they have taken our oil dollars and committed themselves to super expensive infrastructure projects, public health projects, welfare projects, and defense projects. They are hooked on this cash flow that will eventually dry up. Maybe we can give them some of the same trearment they give us.

 

There are thousands of companies in the US today working on ways for us to use other fuels. This is a natural unrehearsed non governmental response to higher traditional energy prices, which now encourage this research . There are hundreds of new companies listed on our exchanges now in these businesses. I am amazed every day how many there are. Economics 101 at work.

[jpd80]

Good post Ralph Greene,

I sure hope some day soon we can leave the Middle East to China and

focus on alternative fuel resources in Canada, USA and Australia.

The reason I included Australia is because we have 42% of the world's mineable Uranium.

 

Let's all switch to Natural gas, tar sands, shale oil and Nuclear Reactors (Power and Hydrogen).

It only seemed expensive to do all of these when crude was cheap by comparison.

Now, I not so sure anymore, OPEC might have cooked its own goose.

[RichardJensen]

Ford spends $7B+ on R&D every year. My money is on a company of their size to make a breakthrough on EV technology over a golf-cart mfr.

 

Thing is, people keep alleging that auto mfrs. don't want to improve fuel economy/develop alternative fuel vehicles. The truth to that is probably more due to inertia than anything else.

 

In one of the only things Bob Lutz has ever said that I agree with, he said, "If I could put a 40mpg sedan on the road, why wouldn't I?"

 

Ford & GM should be able to do something before Club Car or whoever else is making those little 4-seat hover-rounds does.

[Ralph Greene]

Yes jpd80. OPEC may have just done it to themselves. I suspect Saudia Arabia knows what we are talking about. They seem a little more interested than others keeping us hooked on cheap oil.

 

Since everyone seems to think crude oil prices can only go up forever, and that there is no way they can ever come down much, I figure just the opposite is more likely to be so. I have recently sold all my traditional big oil company stocks while they are up. And keeping only some that are in special areas of the business. I may be early doing this, but i bet I'm correct. Doing just the opposite of the crowd usually pays off.

 

Austrailia has always been our friend. Hopefully we can all work together regaining our independence from the Arab world oil producers. We don't get much from them now actually.

Edited October 27, 2007 by Ralph Greene

[LincolnFan]

Yes jpd80. OPEC may have just done it to themselves. I suspect Saudia Arabia knows what we are talking about. They seem a little more interested than others keeping us hooked on cheap oil.

 

Riiiiiiiiiiight, cheap oil.

 

I don't think anyone in the government has that kind of future foresight, I just wish they wouldn't forget flushing the toilet when they're done.

[silvrsvt]

Riiiiiiiiiiight, cheap oil.

 

I don't think anyone in the government has that kind of future foresight, I just wish they wouldn't forget flushing the toilet when they're done.

 

 

Cheap oil in relation to other products. If the price of oil goes up to 120 bucks a barrel, I'm willing to be that some other fuel system would come on line very quicky to replace it...

 

once that happens, they lose their money and power

[TomServo92]

Those things are u-g-l-y.

 

Actually, I can't find an adjective of suitable depth to express my dislike for windmill farms.

 

Yep. They do tend to ugly up a nice landscape.

[FordBuyer]

Only if you live someplace where the electricity comes from a dam.

 

 

Ford's hybrids get their power from battery pack and battery is recharged by regenterative braking, not plugging into wall socket. Plug-ins will get recharged by wall socket, but not present full hybrids and mild hybrids. Plug-ins are a long way off. It remains to be seen if GM can do mass produced plug-in by 2010 for affordable price and have range of at least 40 miles on one charge.