WHO ON THIS FORUM LIKES PAYING FOR SOCIAL SERVICES FOR PEOPLE WHO REFUSE TO WORK?,

[ShockFX]

There are reasons that we don't have a huge illegal immigration problem (and yes, one of them is because we are not beside Mexico, but there are other reason). That doesn't matter, because not all Mexicans in the US are illegal. Many of them pay taxes and work.

 

No one ever has a problem with people that pay into the system. It's people that do not pay in but receive benefits.

 

Western Europe, Australia, and Canada are nearly 100% Caucasian.

[Deanh]

Wikipedia

 

As For the death penalty, it seems to do little except introduce retributive justice, something that should not be IMO a part of the system (eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind, etc.). Western Europe, Canada, and Australia have lower violent crime rates than the US. The death penalty does little to deter and nothing to rehabilitate. There is also the issue of us being 100% right in our convictions (especially given your elected judges) and the issue of whether or not we have the right to put someone to death.

whilst i agree with you...sure would deter said criminals if they knew IMMEDIATE consequences rather than know that in Politically Correct America even the most greivous crimes are met with "rights"....how bout you steal a loaf of bread and your hand gets whopped off?????..GUARANTEE it would make someone think twice....here someone BRUTALLY murders and the the lawsuit is drawn out for decades paid for by taxpayers whilst said criminal is clothed, fed a catered too in camp run-amock.....once again...accountability is a word that should be deleted from American dictionaries.....thankyou Attourneys.....

[ShockFX]

Illegals here do not get free coverage they have to pay. Same as people visiting Canada.

They will treat them but they will get a bill. Alot of Illegals are caught this way in Canada they go to the doctor hospital ETC they have no Health care number questions are asked & investigations follow. If the medical staff suspect any thing they call the apripriate authority's. Abuse of the system hurts them too. Their wages are paid by Health Care. If people abuse it it just means that many fewer dollars can be used for increasing thier wages. They have a vested interest in making sure the system is not abused.

 

People here on refugee status or waiting for citizendship are covered. But they are given documentation to allow them to work and pay taxes and health preimuims (if applicable in thier local) just like every one else.

 

Of course your performance during this period is taken in to consideration when the time comes to grant you citizenship.

 

I have talked to several people that have imigrated here. And all have said it was much tougher to even get considered by Imigration Canada than the U.S counter part.

So do you cover Illegal Aliens, No, but you still treat them.

Matthew

 

You got all that from this? "vLook, if you want to say we shouldn't give health care to illegal mexicans just say it."

 

 

That is also the most naive statement ever. "They will treat them but they will get a bill." Let's think about this, they shouldn't even be in the country, they probably have no money, but you actually THINK they pay the bill? Hahahahahahahaha. You can't enforce payment.

[suv_guy_19]

No one ever has a problem with people that pay into the system. It's people that do not pay in but receive benefits.

 

Western Europe, Australia, and Canada are nearly 100% Caucasian.

 

 

According to the 2001 census, it has 34 ethnic groups with at least one hundred thousand members each, with 83% of the total population claiming they are white.

From Wikipedia on Canada. US # is 73%

 

Only 10% more of our population is white.

 

You know, it doesn't really matter if they are Caucasian, because there are many countries that have Caucasian populations that move here.

Edited November 12, 2007 by suv_guy_19

[suv_guy_19]

You got all that from this? "vLook, if you want to say we shouldn't give health care to illegal mexicans just say it."

That is also the most naive statement ever. "They will treat them but they will get a bill." Let's think about this, they shouldn't even be in the country, they probably have no money, but you actually THINK they pay the bill? Hahahahahahahaha. You can't enforce payment.

 

 

So then you would prefer they don't get treated?????

[OAC_Sparky]

Yeah they have a huuuuge illegal immigration problem in Canada so you guys know what that's like. NOT!!!!

No, we get influxes of "refugees" and others, including Americans, that come here for the health care.

[ShockFX]

So then you would prefer they don't get treated?????

 

I never said that. I simply said his statement was very naive. You need to take a debate class.

[ShockFX]

From Wikipedia on Canada. US # is 73%

 

Only 10% more of our population is white.

 

You know, it doesn't really matter if they are Caucasian, because there are many countries that have Caucasian populations that move here.

 

If you want me to breakdown crime rates by race I can show you how that 10% difference could allow you to say Canada, Aus, and West Europe have lower violent crime rates.

[suv_guy_19]

If you want me to breakdown crime rates by race I can show you how that 10% difference could allow you to say Canada, Aus, and West Europe have lower violent crime rates.

 

 

I know you're right, but the answer is not only to throw people in jail. In this case it is to find the root cause.

Edited November 12, 2007 by suv_guy_19

[matthewq4b]

You got all that from this? "vLook, if you want to say we shouldn't give health care to illegal mexicans just say it."

That is also the most naive statement ever. "They will treat them but they will get a bill." Let's think about this, they shouldn't even be in the country, they probably have no money, but you actually THINK they pay the bill? Hahahahahahahaha. You can't enforce payment.

 

 

The bills get passed on back to the country or origin this is common pratice they get sent home along with a bill to the nation they came from. When we loan monies to these countrys or trade deals are negotiated guess what lands on the table as well. But these are prices of having Human Rights in your country regardless of the persons situation.

 

If a Canadian falls ill in the U.S what happens? The treating facility bills the Canadain Gov't or Health Care.

Either Health care pays it or the feds come after you for the balance.

 

 

Matthew

Edited November 12, 2007 by matthewq4b

[ShockFX]

The bills get pased on back to the country or origin this common pratice they get sent home along witha bill to the nation they came from. When we loan monies to these countrys or trade delas are negotiated guess what lands on the table as well. But these are prices of having Human Rights in your country regardless of the persons situation.

Matthew

 

You don't actually believe this do you? Just accept it's a loss.

 

I'm sure Canada and the US cross bill. I highly doubt uninsured (illegal or not) Asian, Mexican, or South American immigrants have their bills paid.

Edited November 12, 2007 by ShockFX

[RaZor]

whilst i agree with you...sure would deter said criminals if they knew IMMEDIATE consequences rather than know that in Politically Correct America even the most greivous crimes are met with "rights"....how bout you steal a loaf of bread and your hand gets whopped off?????..GUARANTEE it would make someone think twice....

 

Just curious, what would suppose should be the 'penalty' for businesses that deliberately steal from their customers? For instance, I was asked to stop by the local Target store to pick up a couple of items because I was going right next door to Lowes. One of the items was on sale but when I went through the checkout, they charged me the regular full price (the sale goes on through this coming Saturday). I pointed it out and they corrected their 'error', but many people don't pay attention. Isn't that stealing? Every Christmas there are news reports about just this type of thing in department/retail stores all across the country. Whose hand do we lop off? The managers?

 

Hospitals routinely overcharge - as numerous studies have shown that at least 75% of all hospital bills contain overcharges. Of course, the excuse is that it was just an error, but those same studies also showed that none of the bills were ever undercharged. That would make most think that they are an error 'on purpose'. Statistically speaking, it is almost impossible for 100% of the errors to be only overcharges (without a single undercharge) to be classified as just a mistake. Isn't that stealing (if not fraud)? And yet 75%+ of all hospital bills are that way.

 

I think that we could muster up a few people that would declare that they were ripped off by an auto dealer/service company. What to do with them?

[matthewq4b]

If you want me to breakdown crime rates by race I can show you how that 10% difference could allow you to say Canada, Aus, and West Europe have lower violent crime rates.

 

 

That is racial profiling.

 

The reason for a higher rate violance crimes in the U.S is directly tied the U.S's policy on drugs and the lax gun laws.

 

A Smilar policy was implemented about 80 years in regards to Alcohol and look at the crime and violance that chunk of legislation bred.

I'm not saying it is right or wrong but the similarities in consequenses between the 2 can not be ignored.

 

The whoe gun control issue sort of ties in to it. We know that gun control does not work. But nor does allowing every whack job that wants one to have one either. The U.S has some of the laxest gun laws on the planet but they also have the highest percentage of gun related crimes and those are classifed as violent crimes. This alone proboly makes up fora good chunk of the disparity between the U.S and most nations in regards to Violent crimes.

 

Also the 3 strikes your out legislation tends to breed violance. I mean if you know your facing life with no parole are you going to do what ever it takes to stay outta jail.

 

There are other ways of dealing with these issues.

 

Canada tends to put more emphasis on rehabilitation that the U.S and we have lower revididisum rates cause of it.

 

 

Matthew

[matthewq4b]

You don't actually believe this do you? Just accept it's a loss.

 

I'm sure Canada and the US cross bill. I highly doubt uninsured (illegal or not) Asian, Mexican, or South American immigrants have their bills paid.

 

 

They do belive me. I fell ill while in the U.S sevral years ago. The bill was sent to OHIP they covered about 90% of it and OHIP came after me for the rest of it.

 

 

The U.S and Canada cross bill all the time as do most nations that have Universal Plans this is common pratice. Do you collect 100% of it 100% of the time. No But it is not just written off as loss efforts are made to recover the funds. And this issue has come up with trade aggrements it was a sticking issue when NAFTA was drafted Mexico owed Canada a few million for Health Care Rendered guess what they had to pay up befor we would even consider signing it. Also we owed the U.S a sizable chunk of change that had to be paid as well.

 

 

Matthew

Edited November 12, 2007 by matthewq4b

[Deanh]

Just curious, what would suppose should be the 'penalty' for businesses that deliberately steal from their customers? For instance, I was asked to stop by the local Target store to pick up a couple of items because I was going right next door to Lowes. One of the items was on sale but when I went through the checkout, they charged me the regular full price (the sale goes on through this coming Saturday). I pointed it out and they corrected their 'error', but many people don't pay attention. Isn't that stealing? Every Christmas there are news reports about just this type of thing in department/retail stores all across the country. Whose hand do we lop off? The managers?

 

Hospitals routinely overcharge - as numerous studies have shown that at least 75% of all hospital bills contain overcharges. Of course, the excuse is that it was just an error, but those same studies also showed that none of the bills were ever undercharged. That would make most think that they are an error 'on purpose'. Statistically speaking, it is almost impossible for 100% of the errors to be only overcharges (without a single undercharge) to be classified as just a mistake. Isn't that stealing (if not fraud)? And yet 75%+ of all hospital bills are that way.

 

I think that we could muster up a few people that would declare that they were ripped off by an auto dealer/service company. What to do with them?

once again accountability...for low ticket items, and your situation I am sure it was just an error...I'm talking OUTRIGHT theft aka Enron etc...in that case hold their WHOLE FAMILY accountable....one or two being made an example of would deter such happenings from happening again....i am solely talking of items ASIDE from those one has a price tag or the ability to NEGOTATE on ( unlike Hospital rip offs ),,,,,,what you pay for those you may perceive as criminal ( ie gas.... ) but in fact aren't.....

[ShockFX]

They do belive me. I fell ill while in the U.S sevral years ago. The bill was sent to OHIP they covered about 90% of it and OHIP came after me for the rest of it.

The U.S and Canada cross bill all the time as do most nations that have Universal Plans this is common pratice. Do you collect 100% of it 100% of the time. No But it is just written off as loss efforts are made to recover the funds.

Matthew

 

I'm sure the percentage of uncollected money in the US from treatment of Canadians is less than 5% the value of uncollected from treatment of others.

[ShockFX]

That is racial profiling.

 

The reason for a higher rate violance crimes in the U.S is directly tied the U.S's policy on drugs and the lax gun laws.

 

A Smilar policy was implemented about 80 years in regards to Alcohol and look at the crime and violance that chunk of legislation bred.

I'm not saying it is right or wrong but the similarities in consequenses between the 2 can not be ignored.

 

The whoe gun control issue sort of ties in to it. We know that gun control does not work. But nor does allowing every whack job that wants one to have one either. The U.S has some of the laxest gun laws on the planet but they also have the highest percentage of gun related crimes and those are classifed as violent crimes. This alone proboly makes up fora good chunk of the disparity between the U.S and most nations in regards to Violent crimes.

 

Also the 3 strikes your out legislation tends to breed violance. I mean if you know your facing life with no parole are you going to do what ever it takes to stay outta jail.

 

There are other ways of dealing with these issues.

 

Canada tends to put more emphasis on rehabilitation that the U.S and we have lower revididisum rates cause of it.

Matthew

 

It's not racial profiling if it's a fact.

[matthewq4b]

I'm sure the percentage of uncollected money in the US from treatment of Canadians is less than 5% the value of uncollected from treatment of others.

 

 

Of course it is.

 

Beacuse we have a universal system. And the Gov't pays the bills owed in the U.S by Canadians. The Canadian gov't then comes after the Canadian individual directly for any out standing balance (if their was any that was not covered by their Provincal Health Coverage.

 

Becuase we have universal coverage country's that treat our citizens are not left holding the bag for medical services rendered.

 

I have heard the Canadians being treated in the U.S atucally get better treatment that a lot of the the U.S citizens . Cause the Hospitals know they will be paid for services rendered. And do not have to fight with HMO's or insurance companies to get thier money.

 

 

Matthew

Edited November 12, 2007 by matthewq4b

[Deanh]

Of course it is.

 

Beacuse we have a universal system. And the Gov't pays the bills owed in the U.S by Canadians. The Canadian gov't then comes after the Canadian individual directly for any out standing balance (if their was any that was not covered by their Provincal Health Coverage.

 

Becuase we have universal coverage country's that treat our citizens are not left holding the bag for medical services rendered.

 

I have heard the Canadians being treated in the U.S atucally get better treatment that a lot of the the U.S citizens . Cause the Hospitals know they will be paid for services rendered. And do not have to fight with HMO's or insurance companies to get thier money.

Matthew

Matt...if that is true then that pertains to canandians...that is only a TINY % of the crux of the problem....and screw being PC...lets talk pesos ( do you REALLY think those are covered by the Mexican Govt????? )....and I have NOTHING against people flocking here from other countries if A) they realize they are coming HERE for a reason, if they don't like it bugger off, don't think you can come here and start calling shots due to numbers and new found rights. B) you establish a SS card and pay your taxes. C) YOU LEARN ENGLISH!....it is the language spoken by Americans....anyone wants to come here they observe the rules, don't abuse OR try to change them for your own convienience/ profit....and if you don't like it...see ya!...this contry spends WAY too much time trying to appese people that do not appreciate this country in the first place!

Edited November 12, 2007 by Deanh

[Ron W.]

Matt...if that is true then that pertains to canandians...that is only a TINY % of the crux of the problem....and screw being PC...lets talk pesos ( do you REALLY think those are covered by the Mexican Govt????? )....and I have NOTHING against people flocking here from other countries if A) they realize they are coming HERE for a reason, if they don't like it bugger off, don't think you can come here and start calling shots due to numbers and new found rights. B) you establish a SS card and pay your taxes. C) YOU LEARN ENGLISH!....it is the language spoken by Americans....anyone wants to come here they observe the rules, don't abuse OR try to change them for your own convienience/ profit....and if you don't like it...see ya!...this contry spends WAY too much time trying to appese people that do not appreciate this country in the first place!

 

You left out the word legally.

[Deanh]

You left out the word legally.

funny...took me 14 years to get my green card, at one stage I was informed my fingerprints had EXPIRED!!!!!.......paid taxes etc from day one.....AND medical......

[BlackHorse]

* A long and healthy life, as measured by life expectancy at birth.

Last I checked the average life span in America is 72 to 74 years. At that time the highest was Japanese females at 80. UUUUU, that's a big deal. whatever.

 

* Knowledge, as measured by the adult literacy rate (with two-thirds weighting) and the combined primary, secondary, and tertiary gross enrollment ratio (with one-third weighting).

Well you know literacy rates can be affected by things like millions of illegals that don't read, speak or write the native language of English.

 

* A decent standard of living, as measured by the log of gross domestic product (GDP) per capita at purchasing power parity (PPP) in USD.

Oh you mean the standard of living that gets driven down by major corporations who make it a point to hire people at wages far below the minimum wage, many of them illegals who will work for those wages because they don't know any better because they don't read, write or speak english and thus drive the literacy rate down as well. That standard of living?

[RichardJensen]

I have heard the Canadians being treated in the U.S atucally get better treatment that a lot of the the U.S citizens . Cause the Hospitals know they will be paid for services rendered. And do not have to fight with HMO's or insurance companies to get thier money.

Matthew

This is pretty much bunk. In small clinics, exceptionally small clinics, like one doctor and a nurse/receptionist, you might see this happening, otherwise this is just a lot of "well, my friend knows a guy who told him that a friend of his was talking to a doctor and HE said..."

 

Fact is in a hospital setting, most doctors and nurses have no idea how you're paying.

 

--

 

Also, insurance rates, medicare rates, medicaid rates and HMO rates are negotiated well ahead of time. The Canadian government, you should hope, does at least as good a job auditing medical bills as the slipshod practices of governments (state and federal) and private insurers in the U.S.

[Deanh]

This is pretty much bunk. In small clinics, exceptionally small clinics, like one doctor and a nurse/receptionist, you might see this happening, otherwise this is just a lot of "well, my friend knows a guy who told him that a friend of his was talking to a doctor and HE said..."

 

Fact is in a hospital setting, most doctors and nurses have no idea how you're paying.

 

--

 

Also, insurance rates, medicare rates, medicaid rates and HMO rates are negotiated well ahead of time. The Canadian government, you should hope, does at least as good a job auditing medical bills as the slipshod practices of governments (state and federal) and private insurers in the U.S.

good point Rich.......they may have had no idea how I was paying BUT I was turned away a couple of times due to forgetting my card.....and thus in the initial "Spanish Inquisition" in their eyes I could NOT pay......kind of a :no shoes no service "policy"...... so i have been on the other side of the coin...I WAS refused service...wasn't life threatening but....

[RichardJensen]

Hence the number of people in the ER with sniffles. You cannot be turned away from an ER based on your ability to pay. Collectively, this society does not want to deny care to anyone, yet doing so creates a system that can be gamed and abused. It's the price of humanity, I suppose.