WHO ON THIS FORUM LIKES PAYING FOR SOCIAL SERVICES FOR PEOPLE WHO REFUSE TO WORK?,

[suv_guy_19]

 

Well, the US is certainly in excellent company. What I find funny is that US tax money pays for universal health care in the countries you occupy but not at home.

Edited November 10, 2007 by suv_guy_19

[RichardJensen]

Richard, do you mind explaining that for me? I know this is off-topic...

"naturalized"

 

 

Citizenship is tied to place of birth; therefore the term 'naturalization' refers to the granting of citizenship as though you had been 'naturally' born in that country.

 

=======

 

Also, on health care:

 

Is health care delivery efficient? And if not, why not?

 

Consider the higgly piggly of insurance billing and payment settling. Estimates place 25% of health care workers in clerical jobs. Why?

 

Consider the astonishing and disturbing number of patients injured/killed in hospitals due to procedural error.

 

Sit back in a hospital ward and watch how things (don't) work some time. Ask yourself if there's just the slightest possibility that hospitals just don't work well, and if there is any real incentive to make them work better.

[LincolnFan]

"naturalized"

Citizenship is tied to place of birth; therefore the term 'naturalization' refers to the granting of citizenship as though you had been 'naturally' born in that country.

 

Ah fiddlesticks, I so wanted to burn my Saudi citizenship.

[matthewq4b]

Because of access taxation due to the coverage of people who refuse to contribute. if your going to raise my taxes to pay for it, I don't want the taxes to be higher than necessary. Look at what the sales tax rate is in Canada, not to mention the income tax you guys pay through the nose and it's because you cover people who don't contribute!

 

 

Alot of the States in the U.S have sales taxes as well. Alberta has no Sales tax Nor are there any regional sales taxes that occur in some parts of the U.S. Yes we have a federal government goods and services tax.

 

It was introduced at 7% . It replaced the manufacturers tax and the funds from the GST were originally supposed to be used for paying down the national Debt. The Liberals threw the money in to general revenues

the new Consevative Alliance Party (the Reform and Conservative party's merged) that now form the current govenment has actually used GST funds for paying down the debt. And we have corespondingly seen the GST cut from 7% to 6% to 5%.

 

We will always have to pay higher taxes here as SUV stated just due to the logistics of Canada. We have about 10% of the population of the U.S but have a much larger land mass and a more sparce population to service.

 

 

Canadians as a whole have a higher standard of living than in the U.S. Yes the U.S has higer percapita disposable income. But that does not tell the whole story. The U.S has a far higher percentage of extremely wealthy individuals. This greatly increases the percapita disopable income. What we do have is a higher percentage of middle class individuals than in the U.S. And a lower pecentage or poor or marginals.

 

If our dollar stabilzes any where near it's current leval consumables will come down in cost and that should increase per capita disposable income. Gasoline is closer in cost between Cananda and the U.S than I belive it has been in decades. There was a 100% percent differance just a few yeas ago. Now it is from 35 to 25% higher.

 

There are many reasons we have higher taxes.

 

Canada has just over 875,000 Miles of roads the US has just under 3.9. Million miles. Approximetly 4.5 times as many miles of roads in the States as in Canada. But we are servicing the 4.5 times less miles of roads with 10 times less the population. So fuel taxes are always going to be higher here.

 

Yes we we pay a righer percentage of taxes but the trade off is living in a country with a much lower population density. And for some that equals a higher quality of living in their point of veiw that can not be had in the U.S. Especially for people that enjoy Hunting Fishing Camping or the outdoors in general. Their are no hunting leases nor do you have to pay to hunt a tract of land. (infact it is illegal to charge some body to hunt on your land) But they do have to get permmsion from the land owner. Most of Canada is Crown land meaning publicly owned. If I want to go hunting this year I hop in the vehicle drive an hour or 2 at the most and go hunting. I can go camping in numerous locals within a couple hours driving distance And be in absolute wilderness. And this is not in camp ground camping But actual camping. I can drive out to Cadomin go down one of the old mine logging roads cut lines or what ever and park on the banks of the Cardinal or Mc Cleod river and camp and fish for how ever long I want with out paying fees. Nothing like being able fly fish literally a few steps from your camp site.

 

Some of the costs of delivering basic services system is also tied to having a pupulation in remote Northern Comunities Like Fort Chip. for example the only full service hospital is couple-few hundered miles away Ft chip has no road accsess in the summer time. (in winter there is a winter road) If someone needs emergency medical care Beyond what avalible in the local clininc they are flown down to Ft Mac. If it is not an emergency then Physicians- are flown in on regular bassis to handle precedures that can be not preformed by the local medical staff. This also applies to basic consumables in several northern comunities. The feds have small electrical generating stations all over the north to serve small northern comunities these 9 times out of 10 are Diesel gens sets. The Feds fly in or ship in the fuel to power these places, also they have techs that fly all over the north serviceing these units. A Good freind of mine lives in Iqaluit and that is what he does. He flys all over the artic maintaing power generators for remote comunites. He is employed by the Federal Gov't. Once a year he comes down south for a month he sepnds half of it Toronto with famaily and the other half he stays with us. He took this job back in the 80's when things were slow to tide him over. But like so many that go to the artic for and plan on staying "teporarily" get up there and find the the scenery the climate the mystical magic of the northen lights and the people grab you and tug at your soul for the rest of our life.

When Bob is down south he says almost every day he can not wait to go home to the north and leave the hustle and bustle of the south. And this is from a guy that grew up in Southern Ontario

I spent a fair amout of time up there years past and even now every now and then I feel the pull to return to the north.

 

The corker is people living Northern comunites get a break on their federal taxes with a Northern Residents Deduction to help off set the high cost living in artic and near artic regions and to try to attract people to the region. In fact if you live in Ft Mac you qualify for the Northern Residents Deduction.

 

Ok now that have rembled long enough back to topic.

 

There are many reasons as to why we pay higher taxes our Health system actually is not the main reason why. As the Government here actually spends less percapita on Health Care than the U.S does.

 

So do not be so quick to jump to the conclusion that Canadians pay higher taxes because of our health care system. Yes it is a contributing factor but it by no means is the only reason why.

 

 

Matthew

Edited November 10, 2007 by matthewq4b

[BlackHorse]

Another key portion to bold....

 

No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

 

... Not just citizens, any person.

 

It's things like that that make me proud to be an American... and the unabashed greed and racism shown at the top if this thread, that make me ashamed of far too many of our citizens.

 

 

I'm not so quick to call someone a racist just because they think people should respect the laws of our nation. It is against the law to enter the United States without going through the proper immigration channels. That's not a racist law, it's just common sense. Every other nation on the planet does this but for some reason the US isn't supposed to.

[matthewq4b]

I'm not so quick to call someone a racist just because they think people should respect the laws of our nation. It is against the law to enter the United States without going through the proper immigration channels. That's not a racist law, it's just common sense. Every other nation on the planet does this but for some reason the US isn't supposed to.

 

 

It is almost a game in the U.S with illegals hell even the government ligitimized thousands and thousnds of them. So when stuff like that happens what kind of message does it send.

 

Here the penality's for illegally emoplying some one are swift and severe. There is zero tolerance for that in Canada. The fines are massive. And Revenue Canada is an absolute tyrant. They will spend 10k to recover $10. Alsmost no employer here will risk employing illegals. The advantages do not off set the possible consenquenses. Revenue Canada will sieze the buisness all it's assets and even the owners assets including items like bank accounts, vehicles, and property.

This is one area you are better off not messing around with in Canada.

 

Matthew

[twmalonehunter]

Is that why Americans live shorter lives on average than any other "Western" nation? Is that why 18000 Americans die per year because they cannot afford the coverage?

You know nothing about Canada's system, like many on here that pretend that they do. WE can go see a doctor at any time, We can get necessary care within timely fashion. We have state of the art equipment as well as a lower infant mortality rate and a longer life expectancy. No Canadian is in debt because they had to pay for care. What an awful system .

 

Laugh all you want. I'm not going to get in U.S. vs. Canada argument, I just picked Canada. Pick any country with socialized medicine and you hear everyday about people being on waiting lists for major surgeries, sometimes life threatening - and where do they usually turn to - AMERICA or other countries with private systems. I am not sure what you mean by timely fashion, seems a bit like word play.

 

I don't doubt you can go to the doctor, and it's great that you don't have to pay for it, but somebody is paying for it. Maybe in Canada everybody works and contributes with taxes, but we all know that in the U.S. there are a lot of able bodied freeloaders as well as illegals not paying in. I think that was the original posters point.

 

I am going to reiterate, anyone that thinks the U.S. government can run health care is sadly mistaken.

[twmalonehunter]

Oh, and as far as life expectancy in the U.S., I think it has more to do with the excessive lifestyle, obesity, stresses, and a general lack of personal responsibility when it comes to taking care of one's self. Not necessarily the lack of adequate health care. But I could be wrong.

[Edstock]

Oh, and as far as life expectancy in the U.S., I think it has more to do with the excessive lifestyle, obesity, stresses, and a general lack of personal responsibility when it comes to taking care of one's self. Not necessarily the lack of adequate health care. But I could be wrong.

 

Don't forget drive-by shooting, too.

[630land]

And this is related to car chat?

[suv_guy_19]

And this is related to car chat?

 

 

I don't know, but I'm having fun arguing lol.

[Roadrunner]

It is almost a game in the U.S with illegals hell even the government ligitimized thousands and thousnds of them. So when stuff like that happens what kind of message does it send.

 

Here the penality's for illegally emoplying some one are swift and severe. There is zero tolerance for that in Canada. The fines are massive. And Revenue Canada is an absolute tyrant. They will spend 10k to recover $10. Alsmost no employer here will risk employing illegals. The advantages do not off set the possible consenquenses. Revenue Canada will sieze the buisness all it's assets and even the owners assets including items like bank accounts, vehicles, and property.

This is one area you are better off not messing around with in Canada.

 

Matthew

 

Hongcouver.

 

'Nuff said. ;-)

 

But seriously -- say more on this and what's going on with all the Asians arriving by the boatload?

[ANTAUS]

I personally don't appreciate how there's a "child credit". I've already bumped into some people who are popping them out just to get more and more. And that itself is a pretty basic "credit" to quickly remove without any issues. If I remember correctly, it was this administration that implemented it...for whatever reason. Just more of a burden on our society. We dont need to give anyone an incentive on breeding.

[4d4evr-1]

I am going to reiterate, anyone that thinks the U.S. government can run health care is sadly mistaken.

 

If the US government can't run health care how can they run the armed forces, highways, schools, postal systems or any other programs such as police and judical and prison systems? Seems health care is at least as important as roads.

 

4d4evr :happy feet:

[twmalonehunter]

If the US government can't run health care how can they run the armed forces, highways, schools, postal systems or any other programs such as police and judical and prison systems? Seems health care is at least as important as roads.

 

4d4evr :happy feet:

 

Highways are in disrepair, schools are failing, post office is private, police and judicial are local or state. The armed forces could be successful but partisan politics gets in the way of them doing their jobs. So what does the federal government do well?

[suv_guy_19]

Hongcouver.

 

'Nuff said. ;-)

 

But seriously -- say more on this and what's going on with all the Asians arriving by the boatload?

 

Ummm, the majority of those are legal immigrants.

[matthewq4b]

Highways are in disrepair, schools are failing, post office is private, police and judicial are local or state. The armed forces could be successful but partisan politics gets in the way of them doing their jobs. So what does the federal government do well?

 

 

And that begs the questions Is it the system that is broken? Or the people running it the problem ?

 

Or is the system indicitve to allow incompotents to end up in power or those that are just self serving to run it ? If that is the case then you have answered the first question.

 

 

Matthew

[matthewq4b]

Ummm, the majority of those are legal immigrants.

 

 

The majority? Hell basically all of them. The bulk of them were wealthy Chineese that fled Hong Kong before it was turned back over to China.

 

Matthew

[suv_guy_19]

The majority? Hell basically all of them. The bulk of them were wealthy Chineese that fled Hong Kong before it was turned back over to China.

 

Matthew

 

 

I meant a massive majority lol.

[Furious1Auto]

Laugh all you want. I'm not going to get in U.S. vs. Canada argument, I just picked Canada. Pick any country with socialized medicine and you hear everyday about people being on waiting lists for major surgeries, sometimes life threatening - and where do they usually turn to - AMERICA or other countries with private systems. I am not sure what you mean by timely fashion, seems a bit like word play.

You need to watch Micheal Moores Sicko, you can here acctual accounting from people who live in these countries that have socialized medicine and see that what you hear everyday about it is a lie perpetuated by the parties that have vested financial interests. Here is a

LINK

to some of the movie clips and related materials. Watch the peoples scoff at our current system. I do believe that social medicine is in order but to what degree?

I don't doubt you can go to the doctor, and it's great that you don't have to pay for it, but somebody is paying for it. Maybe in Canada everybody works and contributes with taxes, but we all know that in the U.S. there are a lot of able bodied freeloaders as well as illegals not paying in. I think that was the original posters point.

This is exactly my point, how do we incent the lazy to contribute to society to eliminate the need for illegal workers while giving free health care to those who contribute to it's funding? You are correct on your assessment of my position!

I am going to reiterate, anyone that thinks the U.S. government can run health care is sadly mistaken.

Our current government health care as a poverty entitlement works well. Their are many knowledgeable and well trained people administrating these programs. The problem with the system is who it is afforded to, poverty is not a chronic condition and can be ended through ones motivation! Why should people be allowed to collect ADC cash to sit on their a-s. They should be forced to do menial city labor to maintain poverty entitlements, like cutting grass, painting fire hydrants, picking up trash Ect. Ect. Ect. It is nothing short of insulting that I work everyday and can't afford the designer clothing and toys that I see people with when I drive through area's that are primarily section 8 housing. I could only speculate as to how they are paying for these luxuries! One thing I know for certain is what they are not paying for!

Edited November 11, 2007 by Furious1Auto

[RichardJensen]

Anyone that thinks the poor have it easy has never had to apply for unemployment. Or WIC. Or AFDC. Or CHIP. Or Title 19. Or SSDI.

 

Fact is the easiest way to rip off the government is to become a government contractor.

 

You should see the hoops single mothers have to jump through to get a few hundred bucks a month in food stamps.

 

If they need the money the easiest way to get it from the government is to start selling stuff to the defense department. $900 for a hammer? Sure, no problem. $100/month grocery money for your kids? Hold on there. What are you trying to pull?

[Furious1Auto]

You should see the hoops single mothers have to jump through to get a few hundred bucks a month in food stamps.

This is true and quite unnecessary, the current administration forces you to comply with stringent rules regarding to an application for welfare. Most are documentation requirements and it is so as a deterrent to people filing or qualifying. Lose the paperwork and make them work, go to school, and submit to mandatory random drug testing to limit the numbers. If you give them incentive they will find gainful employment, otherwise you get what we have now many who are dependent on government poverty entitlements!

[Ralph Greene]

Many of the people who call some of the new ideas about health care (in the US anyway) socialist are the same folks who like to use the phrase "government schools" for what we call public schools. I think their agenda is more dangerous than the liberals. The talking heads on radio, etc.

 

I know what the liberals want, they want in my wallet for more government programs. That is a legimate legal philosophical political position in the US. I may not agree with it, but do understand it. I can just vote them down usually. But every few years they get in power, and we get some of their programs. That's how our process works, checks and balances etc.

 

It's the right wingers that I see as the danger, with their bible thumping faith based "their way or the hyway" conservative views. Generally speaking, they don't have solutions, just things they are against. It's wasn't liberals who flew airplanes in our buildings on 9-11. It wasn't liberals who went to war a few years ago in the ME. It's not liberals who want science out of schools and instead substitute fary tales, , etc. It's not the liberals (this time anyway) who are running up our huge budget deficits.

 

We have a real problen in the US of escalating health costs, for those that have it, and to the government for those who don't have it. And entitlement costs eating up larger and larger chunks of our fed revenue. And until we, as a nation, are willing to see people dead in the streets of hunger and sickness, or line up the dead beats against a wall and shoot them, we must deal with them. Some newer (and not so new) ideas are being floated around for public discission, which maybe will or won't work. But I don't see how we as a nation can dismississ any ideas without discussion from any loyal American, even if their view are a tad more liberal than ours. I know I'm willing to listen. Because being poor and sick without healthcare is not much of a free ride, no matter your station in life.

 

And BTW we already have government insurance for many Americans, it's callede Medicare. I'm on it, I pay for it, and it's less complicated to deal with than the company group plan the rest of my family uses. They do a good job running it, considering the situation. I believe it's more efficient than the private insurance I have. So I know some type of expanded government insurance is where we are heading. And BTW....I mostly vote Republican. But am tired of my party being the mouth piece of the religious right. We should be the party of conservative fiscal issues. We should be the party of balanced budgets. The party of reducing government debt. The party that promotes business so working folks have jobe. And a party moderate enough to solve social issues.

 

So while I don't like to see dead beats getting welfare either, I think it's a lot more complicated than that. When I was young, I saw everything as black and white, right or wrong. Now I just see situations in need of solutions.

Edited November 12, 2007 by Ralph Greene

[BlackHorse]

So what does the federal government do well?

 

Take our money and give it to their rich friends.

[Ralph Greene]

I don't usually see a conspiracy behind every Gov't program. Usually just see stupidity. But do agrree with you this ethanol program is just a political deal for ADM and others. Even in the face of a lot of data about what it's true costs are in food prices, etc, it's full speed ahead for gov't spenders on this program. There are so many better crops to use for a program like this.

 

The Republicam party is losing me. Sure wish there was a viable independent candidate.

Edited November 12, 2007 by Ralph Greene