WHO ON THIS FORUM LIKES PAYING FOR SOCIAL SERVICES FOR PEOPLE WHO REFUSE TO WORK?,

[Furious1Auto]

This arguement stems from this single payer blanketed health care system that people seem to be pushing for. How is it fair to expect the working man to cover health care liability for people who refuse to contribute by working and paying taxes, and have better coverage than we do? There is a solution to get free health care for the working man and excluding those who don't contribute so that Our taxes won't be inflated to the point that Canada's are! I don't care if you earn $1.00 taxed dollar per hour you should be entitled to free health care. But if you don't pay in you should be "entitled" to nothing period, as long as you are not between the ages of 18 and national retirement age (67) and not disabled! if you are an adult who simply refuses to contribute to society than you should receive a bill for services rendered! Sorry I posted this topic twice I didn't realize that I had put it in the employee section initially, this topic affects everyone and even non-employees should be allowed to comment!

Edited November 9, 2007 by Furious1Auto

[Deanh]

This arguement stems from this single payer blanketed health care system that people seem to be pushing for. How is it fair to expect the working man to cover health care liability for people who refuse to contribute by working and paying taxes, and have better coverage than we do? There is a solution to get free health care for the working man and excluding those who don't contribute so that Our taxes won't be inflated to the point that Canada's are! I don't care if you earn $1.00 taxed dollar per hour you should be entitled to free health care. But if you don't pay in you should be "entitled" to nothing period, as long as you are not between the ages of 18 and national retirement age (67) and not disabled! if you are an adult who simply refuses to contribute to society than you should receive a bill for services rendered!

you forgot Illegals and their 14 kids ( wholley responsible for Minivans still being made )whom CANNOT be refused either medical help or FOOD when they are hungry.....for the WHOLE family......

[Furious1Auto]

you forgot Illegals and their 14 kids ( wholley responsible for Minivans still being made )whom CANNOT be refused either medical help or FOOD when they are hungry.....for the WHOLE family......

I don't think that non citizen residents should be entitled unless they or their parents are here under a legal work VISA, that is just an incentive for them to cross the border illegally!

[RichardJensen]

Everyone born in the U.S. is a U.S. citizen, regardless of the legal status of their parents.

 

It's the 14th Amendment.

 

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

 

Also be careful about the content of this thread. I don't want to see a lot of this:

 

Edited November 9, 2007 by RichardJensen

[RichardJensen]

If you must, go here: http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/297130

[Deanh]

Everyone born in the U.S. is a U.S. citizen, regardless of the legal status of their parents.

 

It's the 14th Amendment.

 

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

 

Also be careful about the content of this thread. I don't want to see a lot of this:

 

IS a very sensitive subject...but SOME are given FREE medical due to the fact they cannot be refused...wonder what would happen if I tried the same technique, and WHY should I have to pay medical if it can be gotten away with??????.....cousin is an RN at an ER.......she may be biased over the years but some of the stories are outrageous.....AND the costs are being footed by the WRONG sources.....

[jpd80]

IIRC, one of our Canadian posters had figures show the US governmnet spends

more per head on health care than Canada with their free to the public health system.

 

Maybe a better question is to ask where your tax dollars actually go

and if there is an effective watchdog auditing the money flow.

The US has massive GDP and governmnet taxes but they seem to piss it all up against the wall.

[Furious1Auto]

No one is deprived of care the Hippocratic oath demands it. The question is who should be entitled to social health care. As you pointed out RJ they are citizens and should be entitled to the same benefits of a Merit Health Care system as long as they meet the criteria (they have to earn taxable income regardless of how much they make) that the natural citizens would also be required to meet! If any proposed health care system is blanketed and covers those who don't contribute to it's funding than my vote will always be "NO"!!!!!!!!!

Edited November 10, 2007 by Furious1Auto

[Noah Harbinger]

Everyone born in the U.S. is a U.S. citizen, regardless of the legal status of their parents.

 

It's the 14th Amendment.

 

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

 

Another key portion to bold....

 

No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

 

... Not just citizens, any person.

 

It's things like that that make me proud to be an American... and the unabashed greed and racism shown at the top if this thread, that make me ashamed of far too many of our citizens.

[Roadrunner]

So basically you are saying work from age 16 to age 67 to get free health care and if not then f---- you ?

 

Boy oh boy won't you be changing your tune if you get injured at the plant and can no longer work, or will have to freelance.

 

I say

 

NO to socialized health care

YES to regulating medical costs

YES to the system we have now

 

See John Stossel's recent report on 20/20 on healthcare.

 

If we lower the costs, healthcare will return to being affordable for the masses.

[Furious1Auto]

So basically you are saying work from age 16 to age 67 to get free health care and if not then f---- you ?

 

Boy oh boy won't you be changing your tune if you get injured at the plant and can no longer work, or will have to freelance.

 

I say

 

NO to socialized health care

YES to regulating medical costs

YES to the system we have now

 

See John Stossel's recent report on 20/20 on healthcare.

 

If we lower the costs, healthcare will return to being affordable for the masses.

Didn't I mention disability. If you have a the necessary documentation either at the time services are rendered or even after you got a collections notice the debt would be wiped clean.

The proper documentation being :

1. Current pay stub within the last two weeks
   
2. A social security check
   
3. Disability paperwork (notorized)
   
4. a valid drivers license (proving that you are here legally)
   
5. a unemployment check or document stating that you meet are eligible for unemployment.
   

As for the unemployment paperwork, there needs to be a grace period for people who become involuntarily unemployed and I suggest that it be the same as unemployment benefits. 26 weeks to give people an opportunity to find employment so that they can regain long term coverage!

[RaZor]

Single payer system, what is it? All of the right-wing talking heads (Glenn, Bill, Sean, Rush, Joe, and Chris – you know who am speaking of here) in the media call it socialized medicine and that is repeating what the GOP candidates themselves have specifically referred to it as. Is it, or are they just sticking another knife into our paranoia and fears?

 

Of course they are. That is how they maintain control over their sheep and the public and feed money into their own pockets.

 

“Single-payer national health insurance is a system in which a single public or quasi-public agency organizes health financing, but delivery of care remains largely private.

 

Private insurers necessarily waste health dollars on things that have nothing to do with care: overhead, underwriting, billing, sales and marketing departments as well as huge profits and exorbitant executive pay. Doctors and hospitals must maintain costly administrative staffs to deal with the bureaucracy. Combined, this needless administration consumes one-third (31 percent) of Americans’ health dollars.

 

Single-payer financing is the only way to recapture this wasted money. The potential savings on paperwork, more than $350 billion per year, are enough to provide comprehensive coverage to everyone without paying any more than we already do.

 

Under a single-payer system, all Americans would be covered for all medically necessary services, including: doctor, hospital, long-term care, mental health, dental, vision, prescription drug and medical supply costs.

 

Patients would regain free choice of doctor and hospital, and doctors would regain autonomy over patient care.

 

Physicians would be paid fee-for-service according to a negotiated formulary or receive salary from a hospital or nonprofit HMO / group practice. Hospitals would receive a global budget for operating expenses. Health facilities and expensive equipment purchases would be managed by regional health planning boards.

 

A single-payer system would be financed by eliminating private insurers and recapturing their administrative waste. Modest new taxes would replace premiums and out-of-pocket payments currently paid by individuals and business. Costs would be controlled through negotiated fees, global budgeting and bulk purchasing.”

 

I almost can hear the gears whirling inside your head, as you have been filled with a lot of lies by those who stand to continue to profit from our current system. But, but, but . . . Mitt, and Rudi, and Glenn, and Rush, and Sean . . . all of them say it is ‘socialized medicine”. . .

 

No. . . unless you don’t know what “socialized” means. “Socialized medicine is a system in which doctors and hospitals work for the government and draw salaries from the government. Doctors in the Veterans Administration and the Armed Services are paid this way. Examples also exist in Great Britain and Spain. But in most European countries, Canada, Australia and Japan they have socialized financing, or socialized health insurance, not socialized medicine. The government pays for care that is delivered in the private (mostly not-for-profit) sector. This is similar to how Medicare works in this country. Doctors are in private practice and are paid on a fee-for-service basis from government funds. The government does not own or manage their medical practices or hospitals.

 

The term socialized medicine is often used to conjure images of government bureaucratic interference in medical care. That does not describe what happens in countries with national health insurance. It does describe the interference by insurance company bureaucrats in our health system.

 

Right now the United States has the most bureaucratic health care system in the world. Over 24% of every health care dollar goes to paperwork, overhead, CEO salaries, profits, and other non-clinical costs. Because the U.S. does not have a system that serves everyone and instead has over 1,500 different insurance plans, each with their own marketing, paperwork, enrollment, premiums, rules, and regulations, our insurance system is both extremely complex and fragmented. The Medicare program operates with just 3% overhead, compared to 15% to 25% overhead at a typical HMO.

 

Won’t it raise my taxes?

Currently, about 60% of our health care system is financed by public money: federal and state taxes, property taxes and tax subsidies. These funds pay for Medicare, Medicaid, the VA, coverage for public employees (including teachers), elected officials, military personnel, etc. There are also hefty tax subsidies to employers to help pay for their employees’ health insurance. About 20% of heath care is financed by all of us individually through out-of-pocket payments, such as co-pays, deductibles, the uninsured paying directly for care, people paying privately for premiums, etc. Private employers only pay 20% of health care costs. In all, it is a very “regressive” way to finance health care, in that the poor pay a much higher percentage of their income for health care than higher income individuals do.

 

A universal public system would be financed this way: The public financing already funneled to Medicare and Medicaid would be retained. The difference, or the gap between current public funding and what we would need for a universal health care system, would be financed by a payroll tax on employers (about 7%) and an income tax on individuals (about 2%). The payroll tax would replace all other employer expenses for employees’ health care. The income tax would take the place of all current insurance premiums, co-pays, deductibles, and any and all other out of pocket payments. For the vast majority of people a 2% income tax is less than what they now pay for insurance premiums and in out-of-pocket payments such as co-pays and deductibles, particularly for anyone who has had a serious illness or has a family member with a serious illness. It is also a fair and sustainable contribution. Currently, over 41 million people have no insurance and thousands of people with insurance are bankrupted when they have an accident or illness. Employers who currently offer no health insurance would pay more, but they would receive health insurance for the same low rate as larger firms. Many small employers have to pay 25% or more of payroll now for health insurance – so they end up not having insurance at all. For large employers, a payroll tax in the 7% range would mean they would pay less than they currently do (about 8.5%). No employer, moreover, would hold a competitive advantage over another because his cost of business did not include health care. And health insurance would disappear from the bargaining table between employers and employees.”

 

What about illegals? Who do you think is paying for their health care? You are. . . instead of the companies/businesses that employ them. Corporate welfare. We get upset at those in our society that don’t want to, or can’t, work. Rightly so. But there are local governments and tons of business that hire these illegals and we pay for their healthcare.

 

Not necessary. Temporary workers should all be registered (before they cross the border) and any employer should have to acquire those workers through a national organization (could be a private org). That private organization would be charged with maintaining constant knowledge of the worker AND be responsible for providing ANY social/medical needs of the worker. This can be done with a self-insurance program that all employers, that use these workers, would pay for. Not us – the taxpayer. To receive any benies, the worker must have his/her ID card with a memory strip (on the back) and that gets them the service (up to that provided by the TW program). No government (tax funded) services would be available, other than those that are reimbursed by the program users/contributors (employers).

 

We have got to stop paying $300+ billion needlessly EVERY year. . . we can’t afford it anymore.

 

SO, if you have been calling Single-payer socialized medicine . . . it might be best to stop as you now know that is NOT accurate, and you are just showing your ass and that you're gullible to those that benefit from our current highly bureaucratic system. We're all tired of seeing (and hearing) your ass.

 

Source

[ViperPilot]

Didn't I mention disability. If you have a the necessary documentation either at the time services are rendered or even after you got a collections notice the debt would be wiped clean.

The proper documentation being :

1. Current pay stub within the last two weeks
   
2. A social security check
   
3. Disability paperwork (notorized)
   
4. a valid drivers license (proving that you are here legally)
   
5. a unemployment check or document stating that you meet are eligible for unemployment.
   

As for the unemployment paperwork, there needs to be a grace period for people who become involuntarily unemployed and I suggest that it be the same as unemployment benefits. 26 weeks to give people an opportunity to find employment so that they can regain long term coverage!

Who do you think will be paying the extra $100,000/yr civil servants that will need to police your Merit policy? :shades:

[twmalonehunter]

Call it what you want, single payer, socialized, whatever you call it a system like that will greatly reduce the quality and availability of our HEALTH CARE. People need to stop confusing HEALTH CARE with health coverage or health insurance. Everybody can get health care regardless of their ability to pay. We are not entitled to FREE health care.

 

I am all for eliminating the wasted money that is in the current system and agree that the system needs major overhauling, but you are a fool if you think that the government running the health care system is the answer. Name one thing that the federal government runs that is done efficiently. The government needs to get completely out of it before all of the good doctors are forced out of the profession, and we are left with CANADA's crappy health care system.

[LincolnFan]

It's the 14th Amendment.

naturalized in the United States

 

Richard, do you mind explaining that for me? I know this is off-topic...

[suv_guy_19]

Call it what you want, single payer, socialized, whatever you call it a system like that will greatly reduce the quality and availability of our HEALTH CARE. People need to stop confusing HEALTH CARE with health coverage or health insurance. Everybody can get health care regardless of their ability to pay. We are not entitled to FREE health care.

 

Is that why Americans live shorter lives on average than any other "Western" nation? Is that why 18000 Americans die per year because they cannot afford the coverage?

 

I am all for eliminating the wasted money that is in the current system and agree that the system needs major overhauling, but you are a fool if you think that the government running the health care system is the answer. Name one thing that the federal government runs that is done efficiently. The government needs to get completely out of it before all of the good doctors are forced out of the profession, and we are left with CANADA's crappy health care system.

 

 

You know nothing about Canada's system, like many on here that pretend that they do. WE can go see a doctor at any time, We can get necessary care within timely fashion. We have state of the art equipment as well as a lower infant mortality rate and a longer life expectancy. No Canadian is in debt because they had to pay for care. What an awful system .

[ViperPilot]

Is that why Americans live shorter lives on average than any other "Western" nation? Is that why 18000 Americans die per year because they cannot afford the coverage?

You know nothing about Canada's system, like many on here that pretend that they do. WE can go see a doctor at any time, We can get necessary care within timely fashion. We have state of the art equipment as well as a lower infant mortality rate and a longer life expectancy. No Canadian is in debt because they had to pay for care. What an awful system .

Exactly. I've never had to check my account balance before making a doctor's appointment.

[suv_guy_19]

Exactly. I've never had to check my account balance before making a doctor's appointment.

 

 

Of phone the insurance company to ask if its ok to go, or be worried if they will think it was necessary and pay it. I really don't see why people think it's so awful.

[Furious1Auto]

Who do you think will be paying the extra $100,000/yr civil servants that will need to police your Merit policy? :shades:

The administration costs would be payed for by the taxes that a generated to fund this program but unlike through insurance agent not for billions in annual profit, and the people who would be paid to do all of the administration, account payable/receivable could be hired from the ranks of the insurers who would be going out of business!

Edited March 11, 2008 by Furious1Auto

[suv_guy_19]

The administration costs would be payed for by the taxes that a generated to fund this program but unlike through insurance agent not for billions in annual profit, and the people who would be paid to do all of the administration, account payable/receivable could be hired from the ranks of the insurers who would going out of business!

 

 

So while your doing that, why not cover everyone? I mean, they already are today, so why not under the new system?

[Furious1Auto]

Call it what you want, single payer, socialized, whatever you call it a system like that will greatly reduce the quality and availability of our HEALTH CARE. People need to stop confusing HEALTH CARE with health coverage or health insurance. Everybody can get health care regardless of their ability to pay. We are not entitled to FREE health care.

 

I am all for eliminating the wasted money that is in the current system and agree that the system needs major overhauling, but you are a fool if you think that the government running the health care system is the answer. Name one thing that the federal government runs that is done efficiently. The government needs to get completely out of it before all of the good doctors are forced out of the profession, and we are left with CANADA's crappy health care system.

That's a farce, what it will reduce it the cost of profit for insurer, and their share holders the doctors wages will remain unch therefore keeping the highly qualified medical personal that currently practices today! So let's maintain the best medical care (38 in the world) that few will ever get to utilize because they cannot afford it, right!

[Furious1Auto]

So while your doing that, why not cover everyone? I mean, they already are today, so why not under the new system?

Because of excess taxation due to the coverage of people who refuse to contribute. if your going to raise my taxes to pay for it, I don't want the taxes to be higher than necessary. Look at what the sales tax rate is in Canada, not to mention the income tax you guys pay through the nose and it's because you cover people who don't contribute!

Edited November 11, 2007 by Furious1Auto

[suv_guy_19]

Because of access taxation due to the coverage of people who refuse to contribute. if your going to raise my taxes to pay for it, I don't want the taxes to be higher than necessary. Look at what the sales tax rate is in Canada, not to mention the income tax you guys pay through the nose and it's because you cover people who don't contribute!

 

 

Yes and we live so poorly because of our taxes. You pretend to know, but again, you don't. We pay more tax than you, yeah, but we would anyway. To support a country this size on this population number, of course we pay higher tax. These taxes don't stop my family from having 5 cars and a 2000 square foot home. It doesn't stop our business in an area with a relatively small pop. from making $2M in sales per year.My parents are saving for retirement, and helping to pay for me to go to school as well. Yeah, we live so awful. Maybe under your system we should cut of social assistance as well. I mean after all, why give to those who don't contribute. We should help the people who don't contribute, because it is not up to us to judge their worth.

[Furious1Auto]

Yes and we live so poorly because of our taxes. You pretend to know, but again, you don't. We pay more tax than you, yeah, but we would anyway. To support a country this size on this population number, of course we pay higher tax. These taxes don't stop my family from having 5 cars and a 2000 square foot home. It doesn't stop our business in an area with a relatively small pop. from making $2M in sales per year.My parents are saving for retirement, and helping to pay for me to go to school as well. Yeah, we live so awful. Maybe under your system we should cut of social assistance as well. I mean after all, why give to those who don't contribute. We should help the people who don't contribute, because it is not up to us to judge their worth.

I am not disagreeing to the benefits of social medicine, just that it is not a "Right" just because you and others may believe it or not!

Edited November 11, 2007 by Furious1Auto

[suv_guy_19]

I am not disagreeing to the benefits of social medicine, just that it is nor a "Right" just because you and others may believe it or not!

 

It's not a belief I have, its a fact:

 

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, adopted by the United Nations in 1948, proclaimed that “everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of oneself and one’s family, including food, clothing, housing, and medical care.”

 

NHCHC