Ford Jellymoulds Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 (edited) German ire at EU fine on car CO2 Passenger cars account for more than 10% of EU CO2 emissions German Chancellor Angela Merkel has opposed European Union (EU) plans to cut pollution from new cars, saying it was "not economically favourable". She said the move would burden Germany and its carmakers disproportionately. Under the EU proposals, carmakers that fail to meet carbon dioxide emission limits by 2012 will face fines. Penalties will start in 2012 at 20 euros (£14.35; $28.80) per gramme of CO2 over a target level, and will grow to 95 euros ($137) in 2015. Carmakers would have to cut average emissions of CO2 from new passenger cars sold in the EU from about 160 grams per kilometre to an average 130 grams per kilometre in 2012. Every 1 gram over 130 grams per kilometre to an average, Car makers pay $28.80 fine on each car it sells from 2012, the Germans are unhappy but out voted..... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7151862.stm Edited December 19, 2007 by Ford Jellymoulds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 So where are the regulations against the other 90% of CO2 contributors? Cars get a bad rap, solely because they are visible to people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 The thing that gets me about the whole Co2 thing is that, we can cut down our emissions of it, but is it going to truly change anything...esp if the Global warming thing is caused by Mother Nature and not us? Far too many if ands or butts for my likes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ford Jellymoulds Posted December 19, 2007 Author Share Posted December 19, 2007 So for a Mondeo with a 2.5 Duratec fitted that produces 222grams of Co2 per kilometre . Ford will face a $2649 fine in 2012, and $12,605 fine after 2015 for every Mondeo it sells. If this becomes law 999cc Gasoline & 1,600cc Diesels will become the MAX if the law get passed by the EU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 The thing that gets me about the whole Co2 thing is that, we can cut down our emissions of it, but is it going to truly change anything...esp if the Global warming thing is caused by Mother Nature and not us? Far too many if ands or butts for my likes... True enough. One giant case of putting the cart before the horse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 German ire at EU fine on car CO2 Passenger cars account for more than 10% of EU CO2 emissions German Chancellor Angela Merkel has opposed European Union (EU) plans to cut pollution from new cars, saying it was "not economically favourable". She said the move would burden Germany and its carmakers disproportionately. Under the EU proposals, carmakers that fail to meet carbon dioxide emission limits by 2012 will face fines. Penalties will start in 2012 at 20 euros (£14.35; $28.80) per gramme of CO2 over a target level, and will grow to 95 euros ($137) in 2015. Carmakers would have to cut average emissions of CO2 from new passenger cars sold in the EU from about 160 grams per kilometre to an average 130 grams per kilometre in 2012. Every 1 gram over 130 grams per kilometre to an average, Car makers pay $28.80 fine on each car it sells from 2012, the Germans are unhappy but out voted..... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7151862.stm screw the goose-stepping huge profiteering ba$tards...why should they be held to a different level of accountability than everyone else...bout time they played on a level playing field...thats just pure dam ARROGANCE....NAZI"S! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 a moment of silence for Porsche, BMW, and Mercedes please, 3 of the worlds most profitable car manufacturers may have to abide by everyone elses rules for a change..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 a moment of silence for Porsche, BMW, and Mercedes please, 3 of the worlds most profitable car manufacturers may have to abide by everyone elses rules for a change..... And likely for no beneficial reason whatsoever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 The uproar is just beginning. Right now, people are just indulging in middlefinger, dinner-for-one gesturing and thinking. This will end with burning car tires outside the EU parliament building when Heinz figures out that his next E-class is going to cost a lot more for what is basically a punitive tax. Hopefully, some clever individual will hack into the EU administration HR files and get all the weasels' addresses. Then the irritated can get up close, and personal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ford Jellymoulds Posted December 19, 2007 Author Share Posted December 19, 2007 In the BBC new video a VW spokesman says they will be hit with a 1.5 billion Euro fine, and a lot of their cars have low Co2 emmisions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 And likely for no beneficial reason whatsoever. I dunno...if they are forced to raise their already relatively high sticker prices to the obscene, then the manufacturers that have had the foresight, and have played by the rules will perhaps be in a better position and pick up a little more market share....I still bant beleive a 3 sries of any significance is knocking on the $48k mark!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 Sad fact is a TDI Mondeo (154g?) gets punished along with the rest. Under 2015 penalty regime: $3,288 which is unfair for a larger car that is fuel efficient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 Sad fact is a TDI Mondeo (154g?) gets punished along with the rest.Under 2015 penalty regime: $3,288 which is unfair for a larger car that is fuel efficient. yeah, not good...but I recall reading somewhere that BMW was already paying a fine rather than retool, the benefit of good profit margins i would guess....if this comes to pass that may ALL change.....I am guessing their penalties woould be ecpodentially more....good job I say...they have been cheating the system for too long, have had the time to adjust...and now they are crying..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 yeah, not good...but I recall reading somewhere that BMW was already paying a fine rather than retool, the benefit of good profit margins i would guess....if this comes to pass that may ALL change.....I am guessing their penalties woould be ecpodentially more....good job I say...they have been cheating the system for too long, have had the time to adjust...and now they are crying..... this will also hurt some high liners like Ferrari/ maserati etc......VW is going to have a big hurt w Bentley, BMW with Rolls.....this will be interesting.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 Meh... I doubt these regs will see the light of day. Between Germany and France, I don't see these regs getting approved. Both countries have auto industries likely to be suffocated by these regs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 Meh... I doubt these regs will see the light of day. Between Germany and France, I don't see these regs getting approved. Both countries have auto industries likely to be suffocated by these regs. you are probably right...the ramifications and domino effects could be horrendous...BUT i guess it will be a wake up call to those that assumed they were above the law.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
92merc Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 More likely, the makers are going to tune out MPG and HP to drop their CO2 levels. Any little bit of tuning could save them millions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 you are probably right...the ramifications and domino effects could be horrendous...BUT i guess it will be a wake up call to those that assumed they were above the law.... If the whole world gets on board a new climate control agreement in 2009, watch the frenzy whip up in Europe, they will race to be the global leaders in moral conscience. If all cars in Europe were taken off the road, CO2 produced would drop 10% - that's the hyprocracy! The world needs to replace coal fired power plants, not the oil industry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 If the whole world gets on board a new climate control agreement in 2009, watch the frenzy whip up in Europe, they will race to be the global leaders in moral conscience. If all cars in Europe were taken off the road, CO2 produced would drop 10% - that's the hyprocracy! The world needs to replace coal fired power plants, not the oil industry. yeah...but the subsequent unemployment would reek havok on economies...funny how the Politicians can make SWEEPING changes, they never seem that gradual....must be voting season..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 More likely, the makers are going to tune out MPG and HP to drop their CO2 levels. Any little bit of tuning could save them millions. With right sized engines CO2 becomes a direct function of vehicle weight. You can only improve engine efficiency so much, weight is the big ticket. The use of Magnesuim frames and Aluminium bodies are the way to the future Example: If a BOF Crown Victoria was built in Magnesium chassis, Aluminium body and right sized engine, the weight would go from 4,000 lb to around 3400 lb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old_fairmont_wagon Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 Where is the cutoff for this law? Does it exclude MPVs like the galaxy, C-Max, S-Max etc? What of the Transit and Transit connect? I mean, it takes a big truck to move the goods along the roads of the EU, are the manufacturers of those rigs going to have to pay these exhorbitant fines? The Coach/RV industry would be slaughtered overnight. A mid sized RV likely churns out 300-500 grams minimum, that's 20*380=7600 Euros per unit in 2012, and almost 35000 Euros per unit in 2015. Hopefully, it scales. Also, what about all those container ships in their harbors that are bringing in their imports and loading up with their exports. Are they being taxed for their CO2 emissions? Most of them run their engines the entire time they are in dock and are absolutely filthy by comparisson to car emissions. Look at the Port of LA, believe I read a statistic quoted in an article about hybrid tugs that stated that the ships docked in the Port of LA dumped more polution of every kind into the air per day than all of the cars in the LA area combined yet they just barely make a sign of regulating that. Simply requiring all of the ships docked in the harbor to use shore power and cut off their engines and keeping the loitering ships twice as far from shore as they currently do could cut the pollutants introduced into the air around LA in half from what was quoted. This is rediculous. Their cars are already leaders in the world for base efficiency and now they make even some of their most efficient vehicles painfully expensive for anyone but the elite to own. Wow, and we thought a CAFE of 35 mpg was ornerous. The end result is going to be one of two things. A drastic scaling down of all but the most expensive of cars coupled with full hybridization of all their drivetrains, likely with even more diesel engines than they have now or an open revolt of the member states of the EU that actually have an auto industry. If they think that this is going to usher in the hydrogen vehicle age, they are sadly mistaken. Europe hasn't got a prayer of having a hydrogen infrastructure in place in time for these regs, much less are their domestic auto companies ready for full scale production to begin in less than a decade. There's only one country that I can think of that is even close to being ready to switch to exclusively hydrogen vehicles and that's Iceland. Their geothermal production techniques and burgeoning distribution systems put them closer than anyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 Where is the cutoff for this law? Does it exclude MPVs like the galaxy, C-Max, S-Max etc? What of the Transit and Transit connect? I mean, it takes a big truck to move the goods along the roads of the EU, are the manufacturers of those rigs going to have to pay these exhorbitant fines? The Coach/RV industry would be slaughtered overnight. A mid sized RV likely churns out 300-500 grams minimum, that's 20*380=7600 Euros per unit in 2012, and almost 35000 Euros per unit in 2015. Hopefully, it scales. Also, what about all those container ships in their harbors that are bringing in their imports and loading up with their exports. Are they being taxed for their CO2 emissions? Most of them run their engines the entire time they are in dock and are absolutely filthy by comparisson to car emissions. Look at the Port of LA, believe I read a statistic quoted in an article about hybrid tugs that stated that the ships docked in the Port of LA dumped more polution of every kind into the air per day than all of the cars in the LA area combined yet they just barely make a sign of regulating that. Simply requiring all of the ships docked in the harbor to use shore power and cut off their engines and keeping the loitering ships twice as far from shore as they currently do could cut the pollutants introduced into the air around LA in half from what was quoted. This is rediculous. Their cars are already leaders in the world for base efficiency and now they make even some of their most efficient vehicles painfully expensive for anyone but the elite to own. Wow, and we thought a CAFE of 35 mpg was ornerous. The end result is going to be one of two things. A drastic scaling down of all but the most expensive of cars coupled with full hybridization of all their drivetrains, likely with even more diesel engines than they have now or an open revolt of the member states of the EU that actually have an auto industry. If they think that this is going to usher in the hydrogen vehicle age, they are sadly mistaken. Europe hasn't got a prayer of having a hydrogen infrastructure in place in time for these regs, much less are their domestic auto companies ready for full scale production to begin in less than a decade. There's only one country that I can think of that is even close to being ready to switch to exclusively hydrogen vehicles and that's Iceland. Their geothermal production techniques and burgeoning distribution systems put them closer than anyone. seems there are George Dub-yas worldwide....I suspect in-breeding Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarShark Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 Example:If a BOF Crown Victoria was built in Magnesium chassis, Aluminium body and right sized engine, the weight would go from 4,000 lb to around 3400 lb. ...and cost would go up how much? $25,000 to...$30,000? $35,000? More? Less? I would imagine that the reason we don't have more extensive use of aluminum, carbon fiber, and other composites in cars is because of the cost. Let's think about this. Not counting Ferraris, Lambos, and the like ($100,000), what production cars use aluminum, magnesium, etc. in the chassis, body, frame, unibody? The main structure of the car. Audi TT, A6 and A8 Jaguars What else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xr7g428 Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 CO2 emissions are a direct function of gasoline consumption. More gas per mile equals more CO2. There is no tuning for less CO2. This is a fixed chemical ratio. If the problem is truly one of too much CO2 in the atmosphere, then shouldn't we start removing the CO2? I have made this analogy before: If you were in a row boat in a rain storm, and the boat was filling with water, would you decide to modify the weather, or bail out the boat? This is NOT about CO2. It is about collecting a new tax and changing your behavior. There is a group of people that would like to get you out of your car, out of your house in the suburbs, and into mass transit and a cramped apartment in the city. By scaring you to death that the world is coming to an end, they think you will voluntarily comply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 I don't think most of Europe has suburbs like we have.... As to the motivations behind this, it seems to be a sort of self-flagellation, with the hope that if we make our own lives miserable enough, the world will somehow become a better place to live. In fact, it won't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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