Was Bill Ford Was Right?

[jpd80]

Ford has a lot of options on the table, but limited resources to further develop them, plus technology is moving so fast that when they place their bets...

No one method is the best for achieving specific outcomes across all vehicles.

In the city areas, hybrids do very well but on highway driving - not much change!

DI Turbocharged vehicles offer more immediate improvements to ordinary consumers.

 

Expect to see more hybrids in the future product cycle, circa 2012/2013 when weight reductions commence.

The cost of fuel is the main driver for people's buying patterens, not Ford's need to meet CAFE.

At the moment, most people are happier with cheaper more fuel efficient single mode cars.

[Furious1Auto]

No one method is the best for achieving specific outcomes across all vehicles.

In the city areas, hybrids do very well but on highway driving - not much change!

DI Turbocharged vehicles offer more immediate improvements to ordinary consumers.

 

Expect to see more hybrids in the future product cycle, circa 2012/2013 when weight reductions commence.

The cost of fuel is the main driver for people's buying patterens, not Ford's need to meet CAFE.

At the moment, most people are happier with cheaper more fuel efficient single mode cars.

That's right, and knowing that all manufacturers or at least dealers (whichever the case) price gouge on Hybrids, the only thing likely to change on hybrids as the price of fuel rises is the mark-up in purchase price.

 

The Ecoboost Twin Turbo tuned for fuel efficiency is the low cost alternative to the hybrid. Not to mention there is no volume limitations on the volume of batteries available, or a rocket scientist that it requires to repair one. Plus there is no need to settle for a car that takes 10 min. to reach highway speed, and couldn't tow a Radio Flyer wagon behind it.

[V8 Ford]

Do any of those hybrids (that make up an awesome 2.5% of the market) generate a profit for their manufacturer? The last time I checked (quite a while ago, which is why I'm asking) hybrids were selling at a loss of several thousand dollars per unit.

[FordBuyer]

Do any of those hybrids (that make up an awesome 2.5% of the market) generate a profit for their manufacturer? The last time I checked (quite a while ago, which is why I'm asking) hybrids were selling at a loss of several thousand dollars per unit.

 

Only the manufacturers know for sure. But I look at it this way. I look to get rid of my 2002 Taurus in late 2009 and will be looking at new 2010 Fusion. For me, the choice will come down to hybrid Fusion and new 2.5 L I4 with 6 speed auto. If an SE hybrid Fusion has sticker price of $26,000, and an I4 SEL Fusion can be had for about $22,000 sticker, I will be buying the SEL I4 non hybrid Fusion with no regret. Paying an extra $4,000-5,000 for hybrid is not worth it to me to get an extra few miles per gallon. I know I could easily get 33-35mpg out of I4 Fusion with 6 speed auto on higway and 24-25 in city driving. Where I live, Metro Detroiters do more highway/freeway than city driving.

[NickF1011]

Do any of those hybrids (that make up an awesome 2.5% of the market) generate a profit for their manufacturer? The last time I checked (quite a while ago, which is why I'm asking) hybrids were selling at a loss of several thousand dollars per unit.

 

Toyota claims to now be making a small profit on the Prius. I doubt their other hybrids are making anything though. Ford claims that the Escape Hybrid will become profitable by year's end.

[theoldwizard]

This is probably why Clay Ford Jr. keeps his mouth shut now. I do hope though that Ford can finally break the battery constraint and make more hybrids as Fusion/Mariner join Escape/Mariner as hybrid models.

IIRC, the big issue for not ramping production on the Escape Hybrid was transmission availability. The Escape uses a special trans from Aisin, who makes the Prius trans and is a "good buddy" (in the same keiretsu) with Toyota. When Ford asked Aisin to increase their volume beyond the original contract Aisin simply said, "No thank you", knowing that this would limit Ford sales and make Toyota very happy.

 

I do believe that Ford has changed battery vendors, but I don't know about their source of transmission.

 

The "in house" development of a new trans died over a year ago.

[theoldwizard]

Only the manufacturers know for sure. But I look at it this way. I look to get rid of my 2002 Taurus in late 2009 and will be looking at new 2010 Fusion. For me, the choice will come down to hybrid Fusion and new 2.5 L I4 with 6 speed auto. If an SE hybrid Fusion has sticker price of $26,000, and an I4 SEL Fusion can be had for about $22,000 sticker, I will be buying the SEL I4 non hybrid Fusion with no regret. Paying an extra $4,000-5,000 for hybrid is not worth it to me to get an extra few miles per gallon. I know I could easily get 33-35mpg out of I4 Fusion with 6 speed auto on higway and 24-25 in city driving. Where I live, Metro Detroiters do more highway/freeway than city driving.

I think you are a bit optimistic on the mileage from a 2010 I4 6spd Fusion (still no plans for PowerShift on Fusion). Current 2.3L I4 5 spd manuals don't do that well in the real world. (BTW, I get 28-30 mp on highway cruise with V6 6spd)

 

The rest of your analysis is exactly why so few hybrids have been sold. I'm as "green" (or more so) as the next guy, but I'm not going to loose money on it.

[Ford Jellymoulds]

What the cost of a set of batteries when they need to be replaced $3,000?

 

You could get more than few years of free motoring with $3,000 to spend on fuel, from a Pug 207 diesel which costs half the price of Prius to buy new in the first place, the Prius is a waste of space and extra money.

Edited April 16, 2008 by Ford Jellymoulds

[suv_guy_19]

I think you are a bit optimistic on the mileage from a 2010 I4 6spd Fusion (still no plans for PowerShift on Fusion). Current 2.3L I4 5 spd manuals don't do that well in the real world. (BTW, I get 28-30 mp on highway cruise with V6 6spd)

 

The rest of your analysis is exactly why so few hybrids have been sold. I'm as "green" (or more so) as the next guy, but I'm not going to loose money on it.

 

 

I got 31 on the highway with a brand new I4 that was not yet broken in.

[FordBuyer]

I think you are a bit optimistic on the mileage from a 2010 I4 6spd Fusion (still no plans for PowerShift on Fusion). Current 2.3L I4 5 spd manuals don't do that well in the real world. (BTW, I get 28-30 mp on highway cruise with V6 6spd)

 

The rest of your analysis is exactly why so few hybrids have been sold. I'm as "green" (or more so) as the next guy, but I'm not going to loose money on it.

 

 

I get 29mpg highway with my 2002 Taurus SES 24 valver and 4 speed auto. If I can't get at least 33mpg highway with I4 and 6 speed auto, then something is wrong. That 28mpg EPA figure should go up to 30mpg on new 2010 I4 Fusion with new engine and 6 speed auto. Since the EPA number is conserative, I should easily get 33+mpg highway no problem. I would be disappointed if I couldn't at least get 33mpg the way I drive. I'm not into hard acceleration and drive at the speed limit. I also know how to work hills for optimum gas mileage and cover brake when needed. There is a real art to pulling extra gas mileage out of car. I have even gotten 30mpg out of my Taurus when wind is right and no big hills to climb. I average 22 mpg in my Taurus in mixed driving with lots of city traffic thrown in. I would expect to at least get 25mpg out of I4 Fusion.