Ford: Next Gen Focus to begin production in NA in 2010

[LSFan00]

Sure, let's just frame the whole discussion of a global Focus around VW struggling in the United States. THAT'S not an inappropriate oversimplification of the global car market and what Ford is doing in it right now at all. Now, what could possibly be a reason VW is struggling?

 

-- A slowdown in the U.S. and European car markets

 

-- Nimble archrivals in Europe--PSA Peugeot Citroën, Ford of Europe, and Renault--are closing the quality gap

 

-- Fierce competition for the Chinese market

 

-- Luxury auto makers such as BMW and Mercedes are moving downmarket into VW's core segments

 

-- Icy relations with investors

 

-- Possible interference from retiring CEO Ferdinand Piëch, who will probably chair the supervisory board

 

-- Arcane/Byzantine labor relations and issues throughout Germany

 

-- Merger issues

 

-- Plethora of additional factors

 

Folks on here can come up with 15 reasons why the F-series should have come out 6 months earlier or later to await the new engines/tranny's (BOAT ANCHOR!), but VW sales in America today are prima Facie exhibit 1 that global car models are doomed to failure over the NEXT 10 years as we see presidential candidates blathering about 40-60 MPG CAFE by 2030.

 

Umm, no. VW has issues. Such as; they have produced and sold a lot of crap to people over the past 10 years.

 

 

 

If you know anything about auto maintenance, you know we mechanics often have to connect diagnostic scan tools to the cars to retrieve information necessary for repairs. Since 1996, all cars have the same standardized connectors and all manufacturers provide data in the same format. Very simple, very good, nothing to go wrong or mess up — except Volkswagen! Any time you connect to or begin testing a Volkswagen you can easily and quite accidentally change the delicate, carefully calculated operating parameters of the car. The computer is wide open. There is no other manufacturer’s car where you could do this if you wanted to. This is not a good thing.

 

A fellow called me some weeks ago crying how he had taken his car back to the dealer for routine service, and his transmission shifting — which had been beautifully timed and crisp — was now whacked out and no one could get it right. I know what happened. Someone scanning the computer changed something.

 

Look, I love the people in this business, but this is above our pay grade. We’re not software engineers. We are guys who turn nuts and bolts and learned some electronics because we had to. Yesterday I was working on a Jetta with an intermittent no start. I had some pretty good ideas about what might be wrong but I was bugged out because I could get no data when I connected my scanner. I called my tech hotline, an excellent service called Identifix, and spoke to a VW tech. When I mentioned the problem with no scan data he asked, “Does the car have an aftermarket radio?” (non-factory equipment). Sure enough it did. He told me the computer system interfaces with the radio and often you can’t get data if the radio has been changed.

 

Once again, that’s just crazy and completely unnecessary. I assure you that Chrysler, Ford, General Motors, Toyota , Honda, Mazda, Nissan, even Hyundai and Kia vehicles come in the shop with hacked-in radios, and the computer diagnostics still work. And since we know from paragraph two that VW radios don’t work all that well, it’s an invitation to disaster.

 

When doing electrical repairs on these cars you can never get good, accurate, simple diagrams. I used to think this was because they didn’t want non-VW people having them, but after finally getting a good look at some factory information I have concluded that they don’t provide diagrams because no one actually knows where the electricity goes once it leaves the battery.

 

The metallic clang

 

I had occasion to work on a 2001 VW Passat with the turbo four-cylinder engine. With less than 65,000 miles on it, the engine had developed a nasty metallic noise that comes from the timing chain on the back of the engine. As we began to disassemble and inspect it, it became apparent that there was a tremendous amount of wasted motion and unnecessary complexity in this engine. In spite of the fact that this car was well maintained (synthetic oil changes every 3000 miles), it had developed sludging in the oil pickup, which starved the timing chain tensioner. Two thousand dollars and some change later it seems to be okay. I won’t sleep well for another year.

 

Once again, as I worked through this I called my tech service and discovered that this was common. The tech even laughed and told me how amusing it was when the engine, starved for oil, was accelerated — say, to pass another car — it often locked the camshafts, resulting in pieces flying everywhere. Yeah, real funny for the middle-class person who shelled out $28,000 for a fine driving machine. As I understand it, the old “secret warranty” is in effect, and if you say the magic words, cry, or know a good attorney, you might get warranty help.

 

A true Volkswagen story

 

My buddy Joe gets a lot of VWs in the upper-class neighborhood his shop is in. In the year 2000, a customer came in to show him the great deal she got on a leftover (brand-new) ’99 VW Passat. I guess he couldn’t hide the look of disappointment on his face because she said, “What’s wrong, you don’t like it?” To date, Joe can verify $12,000 in repairs and maintenance to that same vehicle, and there are sure to be some dealer bills he hasn’t seen. At 20,000 miles it required complete four-wheel brake replacement. At 40,000 miles the water pump impeller broke, causing an overheat. (Before hearing the story I would have said that water pump impellers never break.) The power windows failed one by one all the way around. The heater core leaked.

 

These are just the highlights. Sooner or later the customer will meet a Toyota owner and discover this is not normal. You can only count on those old Sixties kids buying VWs for so much longer.

 

Repent, ye

 

I have more people say to me that they will never buy a Volkswagen again and never go to the dealer for service than any other model. The problem is that bad cars breed a callously indifferent service department that loses all sympathy for the customer because they themselves are under such pressure. VW is not a basket case. They have many redeeming features. They have great road feel, great turning and brakes, and when running well are pretty fun to drive. And my wife said to be sure to add that they look good, too. The upper middle class likes them because it’s entry-level European for the kids who wouldn’t want to be caught dead driving a Ford Focus to high school.

[NickF1011]

Sure, let's just frame the whole discussion of a global Focus around VW struggling in the United States. THAT'S not an inappropriate oversimplification of the global car market and what Ford is doing in it right now at all. Now, what could possibly be a reason VW is struggling?

 

-- A slowdown in the U.S. and European car markets

 

-- Nimble archrivals in Europe--PSA Peugeot Citroën, Ford of Europe, and Renault--are closing the quality gap

 

-- Fierce competition for the Chinese market

 

-- Luxury auto makers such as BMW and Mercedes are moving downmarket into VW's core segments

 

-- Icy relations with investors

 

-- Possible interference from retiring CEO Ferdinand Piëch, who will probably chair the supervisory board

 

-- Arcane/Byzantine labor relations and issues throughout Germany

 

-- Merger issues

 

-- Plethora of additional factors

 

Folks on here can come up with 15 reasons why the F-series should have come out 6 months earlier or later to await the new engines/tranny's (BOAT ANCHOR!), but VW sales in America today are prima Facie exhibit 1 that global car models are doomed to failure over the NEXT 10 years as we see presidential candidates blathering about 40-60 MPG CAFE by 2030.

 

Umm, no. VW has issues. Such as; they have produced and sold a lot of crap to people over the past 10 years.

 

 

 

 

Has anyone here said that the next Focus shouldn't be very similar to the European one? If they did, I missed it.

 

On a vehicle like the Focus, it makes sense. I think what the discussion is, is that EVERY vehicle shouldn't be a twin to something sold everywhere else in the world -- as VW tries to do. For example, I doubt the S-Max would sell worth a crap in the US, just as the Mustang or Flex would likely sell like crap in Europe. In certain segments, there's just a vastly different opinion in taste from one continent to another.

[RichardJensen]

Sure, let's just frame the whole discussion of a global Focus around VW struggling in the United States. THAT'S not an inappropriate oversimplification of the global car market and what Ford is doing in it right now at all. Now, what could possibly be a reason VW is struggling?

 

-- A slowdown in the U.S. and European car markets

 

-- Nimble archrivals in Europe--PSA Peugeot Citroën, Ford of Europe, and Renault--are closing the quality gap

 

-- Fierce competition for the Chinese market

 

-- Luxury auto makers such as BMW and Mercedes are moving downmarket into VW's core segments

 

-- Icy relations with investors

 

-- Possible interference from retiring CEO Ferdinand Piëch, who will probably chair the supervisory board

 

-- Arcane/Byzantine labor relations and issues throughout Germany

 

-- Merger issues

 

-- Plethora of additional factors

VW has lost about $5B in the NORTH AMERICAN MARKET over the last 5 years. On about 10% of the volume of Ford.

 

If you, again, would take time to actually read what I post instead of assuming that you know everything, you would've seen me clearly and repeatedly refer to VW's problems in NORTH AMERICA.

 

 

I'd hate to think that illiteracy is driving the dialog on this board.

Edited June 23, 2008 by RichardJensen

[Deanh]

Has anyone here said that the next Focus shouldn't be very similar to the European one? If they did, I missed it.

 

On a vehicle like the Focus, it makes sense. I think what the discussion is, is that EVERY vehicle shouldn't be a twin to something sold everywhere else in the world -- as VW tries to do. For example, I doubt the S-Max would sell worth a crap in the US, just as the Mustang or Flex would likely sell like crap in Europe. In certain segments, there's just a vastly different opinion in taste from one continent to another.

as to an extent they should....specific NEEDS determine specific answers....ie 7 passenger here....Flex ( bigger people, more likely to be towing, wider roads, cheaper gas ) S-max ( smaller people, max tow 1200lbs, NARROW two lane roads, over the top tax penalties, gas prices and obviously Diesel similar in price to petrol )

[NickF1011]

as to an extent they should....specific NEEDS determine specific answers....ie 7 passenger here....Flex ( bigger people, more likely to be towing, wider roads, cheaper gas ) S-max ( smaller people, max tow 1200lbs, NARROW two lane roads, over the top tax penalties, gas prices and obviously Diesel similar in price to petrol )

 

Oh I completely agree. Trying to force change on consumers in a market with so many choices rarely turns out well. New Coke, anyone?

[Deanh]

Oh I completely agree. Trying to force change on consumers in a market with so many choices rarely turns out well. New Coke, anyone?

no thx Nick....but i will take a lime flavoured beer.....eeeeek!

[LSFan00]

VW has lost about $5B in the NORTH AMERICAN MARKET over the last 5 years. On about 10% of the volume of Ford.

 

If you, again, would take time to actually read what I post instead of assuming that you know everything, you would've seen me clearly and repeatedly refer to VW's problems in NORTH AMERICA.

 

 

I'd hate to think that illiteracy is driving the dialog on this board.

 

 

Why do you think they're losing money? Recalls? Cash not reaching costs? They have GLOBAL problems which have affected NORTH AMERICA. Maybe you should read my post. The products they've sold HERE have been, by and large, pure unadulterated grade A crap to own.

 

Second (to others), this isn't really about whether we should get the S-max, or if Ford should just dump cash into the Atlantic while flying over F-250's to sell in Europe. It's about the Focus, and the next Mondeo/Fusion product. They'll be basically the same on both sides of the pond and thankfully this is a good thing. VW's financials, NA sales, labor relations, and products are not in any way relevant to why this is today a good thing. There are plenty of personal, financial, and organizational reasons VW has been an ongoing disaster for the past 5 years.

[RichardJensen]

The management would like to apologize in advance for the following off topic rant:

 

WHY ARE LIME FLAVORED BEERS SO EXPENSIVE?????? WHY ON EARTH WOULD I PAY $8 FOR A SIX PACK OF LIME FLAVORED MILLER??? WHAT KIND OF IDIOT DO THESE BEER COMPANIES TAKE ME FOR????? HOW MUCH IS A LIME? HOW MUCH IS A SIX PACK OF MILLER?

 

HAVE WE GOTTEN SO LAZY THAT IT'S WORTH AN EXTRA $.50 A BOTTLE JUST TO AVOID CUTTING UP A LIME??? AND WHY ON EARTH ARE WE PUTTING LIMES IN AMERICAN LAGERS ANYWAY? IT'S NOT LIKE THEY'RE CORONAS AND YOU NEED THE LIME TO MAKE IT DRINKABLE.

 

Again, the management appreciates your patience, and reminds you that the preceding rant does not necessarily reflect the views of other intelligent people, although it dang well should. The very idea of spending $8/6 pack on Bud Light. How stupid do they think we are anyway?

[wescoent]

I don't think I'm overstating the issue one iota:

 

Having been in a leather equipped 2007 VW Passat with a manual fore and aft lever (and power recline and lumbar), I can assure you, it is not simply the lack of bare-bones models that is harming them in the US market. It is also their failure to understand what US customers expect.

 

Also, inasmuch as most cars sold are NOT bare-bones models, VW should be at no particular disadvantage there. VW's minuscule sales figures imply that there is more at work than simply a lack of stripper models.

 

Furthermore, VW prices -are- higher than US equivalent. Consider Passat AWD vs. Fusion AWD and Taurus AWD.

 

===

 

And to reiterate: I have nothing against platform sharing--it is probably the only way Ford can live off car volume.

 

However, this naive insistence that what sells in Vienna will sell in Billings just irks me no end.

 

I understand that US consumers have different tastes than European consumers, and often, automakers do not understand this.

 

However, does it make sense to have two entirely seperate design and engineering teams for a C-size sedan, and a CD-size sedan for each market?

 

I agree that it might not be the best idea to sell IDENTICAL vehicles as both the Mondeo and Fusion. They deserve at the very least, unique powertrains and unique front and rear clips, ala Milan vs Fusion.

 

The common engineering otherwise will allow Ford to react quickly in the event that US consumers demand even MORE fuel efficient engines, and throw in a smaller I4 and perhaps a diesel when the time comes.

[RichardJensen]

Why do you think they're losing money? Recalls? Cash not reaching costs? They have GLOBAL problems which have affected NORTH AMERICA. Maybe you should read my post. The products they've sold HERE have been, by and large, pure unadulterated grade A crap to own.

 

Second (to others), this isn't really about whether we should get the S-max, or if Ford should just dump cash into the Atlantic while flying over F-250's to sell in Europe. It's about the Focus, and the next Mondeo/Fusion product. They'll be basically the same on both sides of the pond and thankfully this is a good thing. VW's financials, NA sales, labor relations, and products are not in any way relevant to why this is today a good thing. There are plenty of personal, financial, and organizational reasons VW has been an ongoing disaster for the past 5 years.

Two points:

 

1) VW has made money globally, but lost money in the US. Go spend some quality time with VW's financials, and then explain to me how -global- issues are affecting VW -only- in the US.

 

2) VW's market share has shrunk pretty steadily over the last 30 years. And that's 30 years of which the first 20 were spent with a sterling quality reputation. 30 years of selling Euro spec cars in an increasingly competitive US market, 30 years of market decline.

 

Nah, it's not possible that there's a connection.

 

Nah, let's blame all sorts of other factors (poor quality over the past 10 years, poor management, etc.) Let's not look at the 800lb gorilla--that VW has lost market share by selling EU spec vehicles--because it doesn't suit our a priori assertion that EU spec vehicles will sell just fine in the US.

 

=-=-=-=

 

Bottom line, LS, is this: VW has had a problem with their NA product for 30 years. They have had an especially hard time of it over the last 5 as vehicle launch after vehicle launch has failed to cover costs. How has the launch failed to cover costs? By failing to sell to expectations. Why have vehicles failed to sell to expectations? Because the public in general does not like them as much as VW thinks they will.

[RichardJensen]

However, does it make sense to have two entirely seperate design and engineering teams for a C-size sedan, and a CD-size sedan for each market?

 

I agree that it might not be the best idea to sell IDENTICAL vehicles as both the Mondeo and Fusion. They deserve at the very least, unique powertrains and unique front and rear clips, ala Milan vs Fusion.

Platform sharing = GREAT.

 

However, I would extend the list of differences:

 

1) Interiors designed around continental conventions: different seats, different switch locations, different nav systems, etc.

 

2) Different exterior sheetmetal: Because NA product will be stamped in NA plants, there is no real cost savings to be achieved by using identical stamping dies on both sides of the ocean. Greenhouse similarities and identical hardpoints are fine, but assuming that stuffing a chrome grille in the maw of a Mondeo will suffice is a willfully naive reading of what sells in the US.

[NickF1011]

I understand that US consumers have different tastes than European consumers, and often, automakers do not understand this.

 

However, does it make sense to have two entirely seperate design and engineering teams for a C-size sedan, and a CD-size sedan for each market?

 

I agree that it might not be the best idea to sell IDENTICAL vehicles as both the Mondeo and Fusion. They deserve at the very least, unique powertrains and unique front and rear clips, ala Milan vs Fusion.

 

The common engineering otherwise will allow Ford to react quickly in the event that US consumers demand even MORE fuel efficient engines, and throw in a smaller I4 and perhaps a diesel when the time comes.

 

Don't think anyone would really argue with that.

 

I don't think anyone is really encouraging Ford to continue using entirely different PLATFORMS between markets. Even vehicles as market-specific as the Mustang could still be spawned at least in part from a global RWD architecture.

[wescoent]

Platform sharing = GREAT.

 

However, I would extend the list of differences:

 

1) Interiors designed around continental conventions: different seats, different switch locations, different nav systems, etc.

 

2) Different exterior sheetmetal: Because NA product will be stamped in NA plants, there is no real cost savings to be achieved by using identical stamping dies on both sides of the ocean. Greenhouse similarities and identical hardpoints are fine, but assuming that stuffing a chrome grille in the maw of a Mondeo will suffice is a willfully naive reading of what sells in the US.

 

I'm with you so far.

 

Then let's take the next logical step... ship over Euro-spec sheetmetal stamped in the EU, bolt it onto the hardpoints here. Export some back to the EU if there are production or currency issues, then rebadge the others here as Mercurys.

[RichardJensen]

I'm with you so far.

 

Then let's take the next logical step... ship over Euro-spec sheetmetal stamped in the EU, bolt it onto the hardpoints here. Export some back to the EU if there are production or currency issues, then rebadge the others here as Mercurys.

Maybe--but not necessarily. I don't think that works as well. Most of Mercury's differentiation is in the form of one or two additional hits on Ford products at the stamping plant or supplier furnished plastic bits. Shipping Mercury's sheetmetal over from EU might alter Mercury's unit profit and jeopardize the brand.

[NickF1011]

I'm with you so far.

 

Then let's take the next logical step... ship over Euro-spec sheetmetal stamped in the EU, bolt it onto the hardpoints here. Export some back to the EU if there are production or currency issues, then rebadge the others here as Mercurys.

 

If the Fiesta is any indication....sheet metal differences between Ford NA and Ford EU vehicles moving forward are likely going to be pretty close to nil. I imagine the next Focus will have a very "global" look to it as well. So that takes the proposition for Mercury off the table.

 

Sorry, RJ. I just don't see much of "Dave" surviving the next round of refreshes. If the EU designs moving forward are a bit bolder, as the Fiesta is, then I don't think there's any problem with that either.

[LSFan00]

Bottom line, LS, is this: VW has had a problem with their NA product for 30 years. They have had an especially hard time of it over the last 5 as vehicle launch after vehicle launch has failed to cover costs. How has the launch failed to cover costs? By failing to sell to expectations. Why have vehicles failed to sell to expectations? Because the public in general does not like them as much as VW thinks they will.

 

 

I disagree with your bottom line. All is not well globally at VW, and they haven't been chugging along meeting goals elsewhere while suffering consistently in the states over the past 30. The A4 Jetta in particular was a successful launch for them.

 

Dave is a great style for Ford as long as it doesn't want to sell more cars than a plant like Hermosillo can churn out. If they want to get serious about competing with Toyo and Honda on volume cars at a profit, the putative next Focus and Fuseo will be a necessity, along with a US supplier base etc. obviously. Generalizing about VW's NA misfortunes and global successes doesn't refute that assertion at all, and neither of us need to dig through VW financial statements to understand/appreciate that.

[grbeck]

Two points:

 

1) VW has made money globally, but lost money in the US. Go spend some quality time with VW's financials, and then explain to me how -global- issues are affecting VW -only- in the US.

 

2) VW's market share has shrunk pretty steadily over the last 30 years. And that's 30 years of which the first 20 were spent with a sterling quality reputation. 30 years of selling Euro spec cars in an increasingly competitive US market, 30 years of market decline.

 

Well, 30 years ago is 1978. And 20 years after that would be 1998.

 

Sorry, but VW did not have a sterling quality reputation in the 1980s. VW's reliability started to decline when the rear-engine models were phased out in the 1970s. The opening of the American plant in Westmoreland County, Pennsylvania, accelerated the process. By the mid-1980s, VW's reputation for reliability was pretty much gone...and its sales were already dwindling. The new Beetle, interior materials and design that were far above anything in the same price class, and a renewed emphasis on the company's German roots revived the company in the 1990s, but it appears that VW has once again hit another rough patch.

Edited June 23, 2008 by grbeck

[wescoent]

Maybe--but not necessarily. I don't think that works as well. Most of Mercury's differentiation is in the form of one or two additional hits on Ford products at the stamping plant or supplier furnished plastic bits. Shipping Mercury's sheetmetal over from EU might alter Mercury's unit profit and jeopardize the brand.

 

I disagree.

 

At this moment in time, Ford also has a design staff for Mercury. By using Euro-spec sheetmetal, you eliminate the need to have this staff on the payroll and taking up space in a building. You can boil it down to the plastic badges, and a new grill insert. In theory, Ford can build Euro-spec vehicles in US factories if need be with the platform merger, and therefore, these sheetmetal stampings might already be here.

 

With Mercury, it's all about narrow margins to begin with, but I THINK using Euro-spec sheemetal MIGHT result in higher sales.

[RichardJensen]

If they want to get serious about competing with Toyo and Honda on volume cars at a profit, the putative next Focus and Fuseo will be a necessity

So let me see if I understand you correctly, and please, by all means feel free to correct this:

 

In order for Ford to compete with the Honda Accord, a vehicle that is significantly different from the EU Accord, they need to sell the same car here that they sell in Europe?

[RichardJensen]

I disagree.

 

At this moment in time, Ford also has a design staff for Mercury. By using Euro-spec sheetmetal, you eliminate the need to have this staff on the payroll and taking up space in a building. You can boil it down to the plastic badges, and a new grill insert. In theory, Ford can build Euro-spec vehicles in US factories if need be with the platform merger, and therefore, these sheetmetal stampings might already be here.

 

With Mercury, it's all about narrow margins to begin with, but I THINK using Euro-spec sheemetal MIGHT result in higher sales.

But does Mercury currently have a design staff? Or is Mercury design simply a 'job function' for certain Ford designers?

[Critic]

Ever since Mercury started adding these side marker lamps:

 

 

I thought they were always trying to position themselves for Europe. I'll admit when I was in Eastern Europe a few years ago, I didn't see many US Ford products. So, then what really was the deal behind these lights? Just a design differentiation?

[LSFan00]

So let me see if I understand you correctly, and please, by all means feel free to correct this:

 

In order for Ford to compete with the Honda Accord, a vehicle that is significantly different from the EU Accord, they need to sell the same car here that they sell in Europe?

 

No. Dave=Hermosillo capacity=1/5th of what Taurus once sold. Camcord=global design language=sometimes the same looking vehicle, and similar platforms all over. Sometimes Euro Accord=American Acura. I get it. Ford could start pulling that off too, selectively, as has been rehashed here 4,000,000,000 times.

 

It's not just gauling that Dave is what we've been stuck with, but that his proponents have redefined success internally to where it is acceptable, precisely because it is different/designed here.

[RichardJensen]

I'm really not following you here.

 

First of all, Fusion sales in the US are c. 150k/year. If that's 1/5th of Taurus volume that means the Taurus once sold 750,000 vehicles a year.

 

Secondly, are we aiming to duplicate Taurus =retail= volume, or Taurus volume overall?

 

Thirdly, what impact do you think European design would have on Fusion sales? Would it increase sales by 10,000 units a month? 5,000 units a month? 3,000 units a month? 1,000 units a month?

 

The logical fallacy here is 'burden of proof', you are making an assertion: that the Fusion would sell better if it looked different, therefore I put these questions to you: how much better? and how much different?

 

I await your reply.

 

I am most curious to discover how a Fusion that looks like a Mondeo will overcome the positive ownership experience that keeps Accord and Camry owners going back for more.

[Pioneer]

No. Dave=Hermosillo capacity=1/5th of what Taurus once sold.

 

Hermosillo capacity = 302,000 units a year.

 

302,000 X 5 = 1.5 Million

[jpd80]

It's not the car, it's the cost of making the car, especially suppliers that's important.

 

Volume counts little without profit.

 

What Ford needs is conquest sales and plenty of them.

Edited June 24, 2008 by jpd80