timmm55 Posted June 29, 2008 Share Posted June 29, 2008 I asked a relatively simple question (no such thing here!) and you are all still arguing 2 pages later! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Escape_Hybrid The Escape Hybrid uses technology similar to that used in Toyota's Prius. Ford engineers realized their technology may conflict with patents held by Toyota, which led to a 2004 patent-sharing accord between the companies, licensing Ford's use of some of Toyota's hybrid technology in exchange for Toyota's use of some of Ford's diesel and direct-injection engine technology.[7] Both Ford and Toyota state that Ford received no technical assistance from Toyota in developing the hybrid powertrain, but that some hybrid engine technologies developed by Ford independently were found to be similar to technologies previously patented by Toyota. Aisin Seiki Co. Ltd., a Japanese automotive components supplier belonging to the Toyota Group, supplies the hybrid continuously variable transmission for the Escape Hybrid. While Toyota produces its third-generation Prius transmission in-house, Aisin is the only supplier of hybrid transmissions to other manufacturers. Friction has arisen concerning Aisin's allocation of limited production capacity and engineering resources to Ford.[7] Sounds like Ford needs to make it's own Hybrid transmissions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomServo92 Posted June 29, 2008 Share Posted June 29, 2008 I asked a relatively simple question (no such thing here!) and you are all still arguing 2 pages later! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Escape_Hybrid Sounds like Ford needs to make it's own Hybrid transmissions? I posted essentially this same information 11 posts after question and 36 posts later, here it is again.... :shades: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmm55 Posted June 29, 2008 Share Posted June 29, 2008 I posted essentially this same information 11 posts after question and 36 posts later, here it is again.... :shades: Thanks Tom, sorry I was skimming....must have missed it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomServo92 Posted June 29, 2008 Share Posted June 29, 2008 Thanks Tom, sorry I was skimming....must have missed it. I wasn't commenting about you but about the ongoing debate. Your question was answered but the debate lived on... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
08FEH Posted June 29, 2008 Share Posted June 29, 2008 Austin, Two people in this thread did say it was Ford's exclusive design. That is why I posted the window sticker. So how can you switch it around to say that no one ever said it was Ford's exclusive design? please clarify that. Michael, I did provide the proof that she said the FEH has NO TOYOTA parts in it. I gave a link that QUOTES her! Doesn't that make her a liar for telling a straight lie? again, you can keep defending Ford, if that makes you feel better. I have provided the proof that the cvt is a japanese unit ( the window sticker) I have provided the proof that Wright told a flat out lie... ( I included her article) again see the window sticker.. I am not the one claiming the FEH is "exclusively Fords design" YOU ARE! What proof can you provide that it is? I am DISAGREEING with your statement and showing what I can to help disprove what you said. Other than patent talk and some "inside information", what have you provided? Hey, it doesn't make me all that happy that the truck isn't 100% American made either, but enough with the denial already.. Can we agree that MAYBE they both or ok JUST FOrd designed it, but it IS in fact bought from AISIN (Toyota)? Is that a close enough comprimise? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suv_guy_19 Posted June 29, 2008 Share Posted June 29, 2008 Can we agree that MAYBE they both or ok JUST FOrd designed it, but it IS in fact bought from AISIN (Toyota)? Is that a close enough comprimise? Yes, because that's the truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
08FEH Posted June 29, 2008 Share Posted June 29, 2008 (edited) Yes, because that's the truth. PROGRESS! If you read back in my post(s), all I ever claimed was that the unit was made by AISIN (Toyota) so the truck couldn't be exclusively Ford. Can we agree that due to the fact that Wright was quoted saying that the FEH has NO Toyota technology OR PARTS in it, she in fact lied (because we just agreed that it had a Toyota PART in it? Edited June 29, 2008 by 08FEH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Critic Posted June 29, 2008 Share Posted June 29, 2008 PROGRESS! If you read back in my post(s), all I ever claimed was that the unit was made by AISIN (Toyota) so the truck couldn't be exclusively Ford. Can we agree that due to the fact that Wright was quoted saying that the FEH has NO Toyota technology OR PARTS in it, she in fact lied (because we just agreed that it had a Toyota PART in it? Where do you think the US content comes from for Toyoda built in the US? All Toyoda does is ASSEMBLE here. Do you think they also import every piece on their vehicles? You should RE-READ exactly what Mary Ann Wright said in your link. She did NOT LIE. For 25-35K transmissions, as others have tried to tell you here, NO ONE is going to open a parts plant to just make that gear. They will design it and have it made for them, even if only the Iranian's could do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkisler Posted June 29, 2008 Share Posted June 29, 2008 Austin, Two people in this thread did say it was Ford's exclusive design. That is why I posted the window sticker. So how can you switch it around to say that no one ever said it was Ford's exclusive design? please clarify that. Michael, I did provide the proof that she said the FEH has NO TOYOTA parts in it. I gave a link that QUOTES her! Doesn't that make her a liar for telling a straight lie? again, you can keep defending Ford, if that makes you feel better. I have provided the proof that the cvt is a japanese unit ( the window sticker) I have provided the proof that Wright told a flat out lie... ( I included her article) again see the window sticker.. I am not the one claiming the FEH is "exclusively Fords design" YOU ARE! What proof can you provide that it is? I am DISAGREEING with your statement and showing what I can to help disprove what you said. Other than patent talk and some "inside information", what have you provided? Hey, it doesn't make me all that happy that the truck isn't 100% American made either, but enough with the denial already.. Can we agree that MAYBE they both or ok JUST FOrd designed it, but it IS in fact bought from AISIN (Toyota)? Is that a close enough comprimise? I hate to sound all Bill Clintonish on this, but it depends on your definition of the word "design". As I tried to point out earlier, if you say that any technology in the design of a component precludes the manufacturer from saying they designed the vehicle, then no single car or truck in the world would be said to be designed by the manufacturer. Not a Ford, nor a Toyota, nor any other product. They all use the technology that comes along with the components, and we are long past Henry Ford's total vertical integration where the manufacturer made all the components. Some components are "black boxes" where the manufacturer specifies the package space, inputs/outputs, etc, and the supplier designs the device to accommodate the specs. If the component has some sort of leading, proprietary technology that gives the manufacturer the leg up in the marketplace, the supplier can expect to get a good profit margin. But normally the manufacturer will not discuss who designed the component, but take credit themselves for the overall design of the vehicle. There are some exceptions. One I can think of is Ford's Sync system where Ford made a conscious decision to capitalize on Microsoft's brand name, use it in advertising, and apply a small plate to Sync equipped vehicles. Yes, of course the transmission is bought from Aisin. I don't think Ford had any hand in designing the basic transmission; I think it's very close to the Prius design. Once again, you can't afford much uniqueness for only 20k volumes annually. There could have been some local mods to line up with the bolt pattern on the Ford/Mazda engine. I believe the batteries are sourced from Asia as well. And, when the industry goes to Lithium Ion, those batteries will, in all likelihood, be manufactured in Korea or China and not the US. After all, who has been pushing them out by the billions in computers and other electronic equipment? Mary Ann Wright's comments are fully reconcilable. From her perspective, Ford designed the Escape system without Toyota's technical assistance (in other words, there were no Toyota engineers consulted, and no technical services arrangement with Toyota). She is making the standard industry assumption that the umbrella term of "designing" includes the flexibility to put together components from various suppliers. I will say, however, that her comments on Ford being shorted on supply are maybe carried a bit far, but I understand why she said it (she was trying to claw out more volume and maybe thought public embarrassment might work). The supply shortage is primarily Ford's fault for limiting the initial volume due to profitability concerns. And when demand picked up, the suppliers already had other better, higher-volume, more reliable customers lined up to take more than they could produce. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one2gamble Posted June 29, 2008 Share Posted June 29, 2008 PROGRESS! If you read back in my post(s), all I ever claimed was that the unit was made by AISIN (Toyota) so the truck couldn't be exclusively Ford. Can we agree that due to the fact that Wright was quoted saying that the FEH has NO Toyota technology OR PARTS in it, she in fact lied (because we just agreed that it had a Toyota PART in it? so if one part of a vehicle isnt built exclusively by that manufacturer its no longer built exclusively by that manufacturer? So all those non audi manufactured parts in my S4 means its not an Audi? You must not have any idea how businesses are ran in this day and age.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyle Posted June 30, 2008 Share Posted June 30, 2008 PROGRESS! If you read back in my post(s), all I ever claimed was that the unit was made by AISIN (Toyota) so the truck couldn't be exclusively Ford. Can we agree that due to the fact that Wright was quoted saying that the FEH has NO Toyota technology OR PARTS in it, she in fact lied (because we just agreed that it had a Toyota PART in it? I agree with Austin-you need to get laid and drink some beers. Why do you indirectly state that it is Aisin and then in the next post or sentence go on about it being Toyota? They do not own this company but do have an investment in them-not unlike many Japanese companies. I have to laugh because you are calling a respected engineer a liar because you have a parts content label. Something tells me that you are very stubborn and pig headed-not sure why I would feel that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
08FEH Posted June 30, 2008 Share Posted June 30, 2008 I agree with Austin-you need to get laid and drink some beers. Why do you indirectly state that it is Aisin and then in the next post or sentence go on about it being Toyota? They do not own this company but do have an investment in them-not unlike many Japanese companies. I have to laugh because you are calling a respected engineer a liar because you have a parts content label. Something tells me that you are very stubborn and pig headed-not sure why I would feel that way. Kyle, I wont resort to calling you childish names, but what exactly is your iq I am wondering. It is funny how instead of offering anything useful to debate, you resort to telling me to have a beer... Is this how you cope with debate? either way.. I'll make it REALLY basic for you... Toyota OWNS AISIN along with another popular Japanese company.. I'm sorry if by not typing the two names together EVERY time, you got confused... Toyota OWNS AISIN.... AISIN IS A TOYOTA COMPANY... ok.. The Parts content label SAYS the transmission is supplied by a JAPANESE company (AISIN) (Which is OWNED BY TOYOTA) The full of shit engineer was quoted saying... THERE IS NO TOYOTA TECHNOLOGY OR PARTS IN THE FORD ESCAPE HYBRID. T Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Critic Posted June 30, 2008 Share Posted June 30, 2008 (edited) Ford To Buy Hybrid Engine Parts From Toyota Affiliate Aisin AW Co., a manufacturer affiliated with Toyota Motor Corp., said it will develop hybrid gas and electric power systems for Ford Motor Co. The preliminary agreement between Ford and Aisin AW Co. marks a change in strategy for Toyota, whose U.S. partner up to now has been General Motors Corp. It also emphasizes the growing need among the world's top automakers to develop new partnerships to keep up with cost-cutting pressures and technological advances. Aisin AW plans to supply Ford with electric motors for use in 10,000 to 20,000 gas-electric hybrid vehicles a year beginning in 2003, according to an Aisin AW spokesman, Hirotake Kondo. Mr. Kondo said that a final contract hasn't been signed. Aisin AW is a subsidiary of Aisin Seiki Co., a major auto-parts maker. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0UD..._14/ai_74992521 Edited June 30, 2008 by Critic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomServo92 Posted June 30, 2008 Share Posted June 30, 2008 Kyle, I wont resort to calling you childish names, but what exactly is your iq I am wondering. It is funny how instead of offering anything useful to debate, you resort to telling me to have a beer... Is this how you cope with debate? either way.. I'll make it REALLY basic for you... Toyota OWNS AISIN along with another popular Japanese company.. I'm sorry if by not typing the two names together EVERY time, you got confused... Toyota OWNS AISIN.... AISIN IS A TOYOTA COMPANY... ok.. The Parts content label SAYS the transmission is supplied by a JAPANESE company (AISIN) (Which is OWNED BY TOYOTA) The full of shit engineer was quoted saying... THERE IS NO TOYOTA TECHNOLOGY OR PARTS IN THE FORD ESCAPE HYBRID. T You can't seem to separate that fact that just because it's manufactured by Aisin that it might not have Toyota technology in the design. Can you grasp the concept of "built to spec"? Ever consider the possibility that Ford spec'd the transmission and had Aisin build it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomServo92 Posted June 30, 2008 Share Posted June 30, 2008 Ford To Buy Hybrid Engine Parts From Toyota Affiliate Aisin AW Co., a manufacturer affiliated with Toyota Motor Corp., said it will develop hybrid gas and electric power systems for Ford Motor Co. The preliminary agreement between Ford and Aisin AW Co. marks a change in strategy for Toyota, whose U.S. partner up to now has been General Motors Corp. It also emphasizes the growing need among the world's top automakers to develop new partnerships to keep up with cost-cutting pressures and technological advances. Aisin AW plans to supply Ford with electric motors for use in 10,000 to 20,000 gas-electric hybrid vehicles a year beginning in 2003, according to an Aisin AW spokesman, Hirotake Kondo. Mr. Kondo said that a final contract hasn't been signed. Aisin AW is a subsidiary of Aisin Seiki Co., a major auto-parts maker. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0UD..._14/ai_74992521 Here's an interesting quote from that article: However, Aisin AW doesn't currently supply hybrid motors for Toyota or other auto makers and said it is now developing the motor it plans to supply to Ford. It wasn't clear whether Toyota will share its hybrid know-how with Aisin, or whether the new Aisin motor would be used in Toyota vehicles. Sounds to me like the tech developed for Ford is different than what Toyota uses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
08FEH Posted June 30, 2008 Share Posted June 30, 2008 Where do you think the US content comes from for Toyoda built in the US? All Toyoda does is ASSEMBLE here. Do you think they also import every piece on their vehicles? You should RE-READ exactly what Mary Ann Wright said in your link. She did NOT LIE. For 25-35K transmissions, as others have tried to tell you here, NO ONE is going to open a parts plant to just make that gear. They will design it and have it made for them, even if only the Iranian's could do it. Do you see where it says no Toyota technology or parts in it? I am not arguing that the Aisin unit was a bad choice.. It is a Toyota part in the FEH, she said there were no Toyota parts in the FEH.. It is that simple.. she lied... I could care less WHY they did it... just don't LIE to the public about it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomServo92 Posted June 30, 2008 Share Posted June 30, 2008 Do you see where it says no Toyota technology or parts in it? I am not arguing that the Aisin unit was a bad choice.. It is a Toyota part in the FEH, she said there were no Toyota parts in the FEH.. It is that simple.. she lied... I could care less WHY they did it... just don't LIE to the public about it! How about this: For their part, Toyota officials say they have not held back on any hybrid parts to other companies. A Toyota spokesman, Paul Nolasco, said it was not interfering in Ford's relationship with Aisin, which is a major supplier to Toyota. Toyota sells hybrid components to Nissan, but not to Ford. :reading: Source Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted June 30, 2008 Share Posted June 30, 2008 It is a Toyota part in the FEH, If it's a Toyota part, then you should be able to get it at a Toyota dealer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
08FEH Posted June 30, 2008 Share Posted June 30, 2008 I never said it was Toyota technology, just a Toyota part...which she said the truck had none of.. I am done. You remind me of sheep, following everything they hear.. Do some research folks, don't believe everything you hear just because it comes from an engineer.. There really isn't anything else I can type... Enjoy what you all think is Ford's exclusive design, full of your Ford only parts, maybe Alice will visit you all from Wonderland too! Peace out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomServo92 Posted June 30, 2008 Share Posted June 30, 2008 (edited) I never said it was Toyota technology, just a Toyota part No, it's a Ford part manufactured by Aisin, which is partially owned by Toyota. Toyota doesn't use that transmission in any of its hybrid. It's a simple concept you can't seem to grasp. Edited June 30, 2008 by TomServo92 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Critic Posted June 30, 2008 Share Posted June 30, 2008 Would it even make a difference to you FEH if Mullany called to tell you otherwise? It doesn't matter what gets dragged up in here, your not going to believe it. She wasn't just an engineer, She didn't lie. BTW Toyoda owns about 41% of Aisin, Ford owns 31% of Mazda. Daimler owns 10% of Chrysler, Nissan owns what of Renault?, etc. etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Reynolds Posted June 30, 2008 Share Posted June 30, 2008 (edited) I never said it was Toyota technology, just a Toyota part...which she said the truck had none of.. I am done. You remind me of sheep, following everything they hear.. Do some research folks, don't believe everything you hear just because it comes from an engineer.. There really isn't anything else I can type... Enjoy what you all think is Ford's exclusive design, full of your Ford only parts, maybe Alice will visit you all from Wonderland too! Peace out. Fine where's your documentation that proves otherwsie? Where? Where? Your posting here has been contradictory from the start, and quite frankly it is annoying. Document your information know it all. Otherwise shut up. Edited June 30, 2008 by Michael Reynolds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmm55 Posted June 30, 2008 Share Posted June 30, 2008 I never said it was Toyota technology, just a Toyota part...which she said the truck had none of.. I am done. You remind me of sheep, following everything they hear.. Do some research folks, don't believe everything you hear just because it comes from an engineer.. There really isn't anything else I can type... Enjoy what you all think is Ford's exclusive design, full of your Ford only parts, maybe Alice will visit you all from Wonderland too! Peace out. Peace out and take a chill pill! Just because you type drivel doesn't make it true. Geez, have you heard of Getrag? Ford and many others are affiliated with Getrag. http://www.discoverhybridcars.com/?s=getrag Powershift. Also in early 2008, Volvo Cars will introduce a version of the new Getrag-Ford dual-clutch automated manual transmission, demonstrated at the 2006 Frankfurt International Motor Show.Getrag-Ford Transmissions is a 50:50 joint venture between Getrag and Ford. It is neither a Toyota "part" as it's not used in their cars, nor is it Toyota "technology" for the same reason. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EI...t_3/ai_19650941 General Motors' Allison Transmission and Aisin Seiki Form Joint Venture to Market Automatic Transmissions in Japan and Asia Aisin Seiki Co., Ltd., founded in 1949, has grown into a leading international supplier of sophisticated automotive components. AISIN is known for its visionary approach, innovative, high quality products manufactured using the basic principle of "Quality First." ASIN provides its worldwide customers a broad range of engine, body, drivetrain and other vehicle products through its overseas network of production and sales subsidiaries. And they have been used in Chrysler products too: http://www.drivetrain.com/aisinwarerAX4_AX5_AX15.html http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0.../A01-272872.htm "Aisin, which is minority-controlled by Toyota, has interesting shareholders they have to answer to," said Mary Ann Wright, director of Ford's hybrid programs research and advanced engineering. "They have recently been awarded a significant piece of business, and what that has done is limit the number of engineers who can work on my program," Wright said. For its future hybrids, Ford is scouting for domestic suppliers to reduce its reliance on Japanese firms whose first loyalties may lie elsewhere. I'm thinking Toyota didn't stay with Aisin because they didn't have the capacity they needed. Ford needs to switch also. Could Toyota (because of it's interest in Aisin) be limiting transmission availability to Ford? Possibly, but I don't know. Maybe Getrag didn't have an available tranny at the time..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmm55 Posted June 30, 2008 Share Posted June 30, 2008 No, it's a Ford part manufactured by Aisin, which is partially owned by Toyota. Toyota doesn't use that transmission in any of its hybrid. It's a simple concept you can't seem to grasp. That was simple and well put! LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmm55 Posted June 30, 2008 Share Posted June 30, 2008 Do you see where it says no Toyota technology or parts in it? I am not arguing that the Aisin unit was a bad choice.. It is a Toyota part in the FEH, she said there were no Toyota parts in the FEH.. It is that simple.. she lied... I could care less WHY they did it... just don't LIE to the public about it! No she didn't lie. You seem to have an aversion to the truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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