08FEH Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 That's correct. Anyone that believes that the CVT is all that makes it a hybrid, is the one misinformed. I have to add here that the batteries aren't Ford's either LOL... :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battyr Posted June 28, 2008 Author Share Posted June 28, 2008 The CVT isn't the only part that makes a hybrid a hybrid. There is also the batteries, electric motor, special brakes, along with many other unique items. Just because the cvt is bought from japan (AISIN which has some toyota ownership) doesn't make the overall vehicle a Toyota product. It would be like saying my car is japanese engineered just because my tires came from japan or something stupid like that. Ford is not just buying the transmission from Aisin, they are also paying a royalties to Solomon Technologies. Solomon and Toyota are in a legal dispute over the patent on the transmission. Ford has also given Toyota rights to their own patents on hybrids in exchange for Toyota rights. I don't now what those patents are for. Sounds like Aisin builds the transmissions, but it is not clear whether the rights to it belong to Solomon, Toyota, or Solomon, Toyota, and Ford. What is more important is what Ford is replacing the Aisin transmission with. I assume it is better than the Aisin and is cheaper? Is Ford going to build their own version of the same type of transmission, or have they designed something completely new? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
08FEH Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 (edited) Sorry, but I'm also very confused over your post. Are you trying to say that some of the Escape's foreign content is somehow coming from Toyota? I don't understand. Sorry if I'm misinterpreting. YES, The CVT is coming from Toyota (AISIN), if you don't think so, you are misinformed.... This subject of patents has been beaten to death. The Escape system was developed entirely independently by Ford, period. Perhaps, but Ford is using TOYOTA parts that they are buying from a TOYOTA company and putting them in EVERY one.... Near the end of the development program, Ford did a scan of the technology and determined that there was one area where there could be overlap in Ford's and Toyota's technical approach. They met with Toyota, and a couple of Ford engine patents were traded for Toyota patents. It was a one-time deal and no ongoing payments are involved. They are PAYING Toyota for EVERY SINGLE CVT, that sounds like ongoing payments of some sort to me?!? This situation is nothing like laggard Nissan who had to buy the Toyota system. This is a very, very common practice among auto manufacturers. How many times have you heard about nasty patent infringement cases in this industry between manufacturers? (Answer: none) I had a casual conversation with a GM patent guy the other day, and he mentioned how he had just had a series of "trade-em" meetings with Ford on a variety of patents. This isn't about the patents, it's about those that think there is NO Toyota in their Escape hybrids,,, Does that make me proud? NO, is it a fact that the FEH has Toyota parts hence technology? YES Edited June 28, 2008 by 08FEH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue II Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 Please look at the part content placard placed on my 08FEH by FORD... It clearly says the transmission is BOUGHT from JAPAN... What part of that is confusing?? You can qoute all you want, call it designed by whoever you want... They buy the CVT from AISIN a TOYOTA company.... what part of that is confusing??? The CVT is SOLD to FORD by AISIN...JAPANESE COMPANY OWNED IN PART BY TOYOTA CONFIRMED by FORD on their OWN DISCLOSURE TAG, which is affixed to EVERY VEHICLE THEY SELL... End of debate... We're talking about patents, not component purchase or supplier. Don't choke on your rice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battyr Posted June 28, 2008 Author Share Posted June 28, 2008 This hybrid is a waste of money. The consumer would be better served just buying a 2009 Escape 2.5L with either a 6 speed auto, or 5 speed manual if they want fuel economy. The atkinson cycle is a waste of time. In theory, given the drop in torque compared to the otto cycle, you still need to keep the engine at a higher RPM to get the same acceleration performance. And if you are on highway, the electric motor is limited anyways. Not forgetting the extra weight you add with a battery pack, motors, high voltage wiring, etc. For 4 mpg extra, keep it. I will pocket the $12K and use it to buy more gas for this "theoretical" 4 mpg. I would say that real world driving is closer to the city mileage than highway. The $12 K is for more than just the hybrid. The Hybrid has a lot of standard features that cost extra on the standard Escape. The hybrid has the performance of a V-6. Plus you should get for Federal and State rebates for being a hybrid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
08FEH Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 The CVT isn't the only part that makes a hybrid a hybrid. There is also the batteries, electric motor, special brakes, along with many other unique items. Just because the cvt is bought from japan (AISIN which has some toyota ownership) doesn't make the overall vehicle a Toyota product. It would be like saying my car is japanese engineered just because my tires came from japan or something stupid like that. Or it would be like saying my FEH is completely designed and built by Ford or something stupid like that... (Ford's exclusive design I think was the wording),,,, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noah Harbinger Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 Two incorrect things I read ALL the time are: The Escape Hybrid is all Ford (wrong) The Escape Hybrid has no Toyota technology in it (wrong) Your argument rests solely on the basis of who manufactured the hybrid CVT transmission, Aisin. But the fact remains: Ford developed it entirely independently, and Aisin built Ford's design for Ford. How is that 'Toyota Technology'? Because it happened to be similar enough to how Toyota also built their CVT that they had to do a deal? I don't think so. I think the brain-sweat that went into the hybrid CVT transmission determines the origin of that technology -- and that was all Ford. Is it because they used a supplier with experience manufacturing a similar design? No, that's just business sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noah Harbinger Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 I have to add here that the batteries aren't Ford's either LOL... :) Who said they were? They're just batteries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlhm5 Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/06/fo...-2009.html#more More details on 2009 Escape Hybrid system. Production will still be limited and dealers will be charging above list to get a 2009. With the head start Ford had on everyone except Toyota and Honda, they should selling more hybrids than they are Focus cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
08FEH Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 Who said they were? They're just batteries. Noah, StPatrick said "The CVT isn't the only part that makes a hybrid a hybrid. There is also the batteries, electric motor, special brakes, along with many other unique items. Just because the cvt is bought from japan (AISIN which has some toyota ownership) doesn't make the overall vehicle a Toyota product." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
08FEH Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 Yota is in fact using Ford patents. What do you think of that? I think that is awesome! But it wouldn't be so great if they were denying it.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suv_guy_19 Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 I think that is awesome! But it wouldn't be so great if they were denying it.... Nobody is saying that Ford isn't using Toyota patents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
08FEH Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 Your argument rests solely on the basis of who manufactured the hybrid CVT transmission, Aisin. But the fact remains: Ford developed it entirely independently, and Aisin built Ford's design for Ford. wrong, not entirley independently... How is that 'Toyota Technology'? Because it happened to be similar enough to how Toyota also built their CVT that they had to do a deal? I don't think so. I think the brain-sweat that went into the hybrid CVT transmission determines the origin of that technology -- and that was all Ford. This is where you and so many others are absolutely wrong it WAS NOT all Ford, nor ALL TOYOTA..... Is it because they used a supplier with experience manufacturing a similar design? No, that's just business sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battyr Posted June 28, 2008 Author Share Posted June 28, 2008 I am assuming that both Ford and Toyota were working on the same type of transmission at the same time. Toyota patented the trasmission before Ford realized the importance of it. Ford gave Toyota other hybrid rights in exchange for the transmission rights. Ford may have different patents on the transmission to. Both Ford and Toyota had to make a deal to get their hybrids on the market quickly. Can any of this be confirmed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battyr Posted June 28, 2008 Author Share Posted June 28, 2008 The new 2.5 L Atkins engine uses variable intake valve timing. If programmed correctly it would be able to switch between Atkins and Otto cycle, but with a lot more compression. Any thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Reynolds Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 Basing an argument on who used who's engineering resources based upon where a transmission is made is a poor at best. I suppose GM deserves to take a lot of credit from BMW because the automaker utilized GM transmissions on quite a few of their vehicles? How can you deduct that it isn't a Ford exclusive design, due to the fact that Ford has purchased a transmission from a Toyota supplier? I mean if you are going to get all nit picky about that then the run of the mill car on the road isn't exclusive because it utilizes an engine/transmission/etc. 'Ford had a play in the design'. Is there something out there that we've all glanced over dictating that Toyota designed the overall hybrid system and Ford just added bits of engineering here and there? Why haven't the issues that have plagued the Toyota Hybrid system early on, plague the Escape? It's a pretty weak argument so why not just drop it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
08FEH Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 Basing an argument on who used who's engineering resources based upon where a transmission is made is a poor at best. I suppose GM deserves to take a lot of credit from BMW because the automaker utilized GM transmissions on quite a few of their vehicles? How can you deduct that it isn't a Ford exclusive design, due to the fact that Ford has purchased a transmission from a Toyota supplier? I mean if you are going to get all nit picky about that then the run of the mill car on the road isn't exclusive because it utilizes an engine/transmission/etc. 'Ford had a play in the design'. Is there something out there that we've all glanced over dictating that Toyota designed the overall hybrid system and Ford just added bits of engineering here and there? Why haven't the issues that have plagued the Toyota Hybrid system early on, plague the Escape? It's a pretty weak argument so why not just drop it? I'm all for dropping it! I'm just not for giving Ford ALL the credit, nor Toyota ALL the credit... It's the best SUV we've ever owned, and I have an 09 on order, but I don't pretend it's something that it's not.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harley Lover Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 You should start giving Toyota less credit, since they've lost their appeal at the U.S. Supreme Court. Apparently, Toyota is the one stealing the ideas of others: http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artic...0402/1148/rss25 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battyr Posted June 28, 2008 Author Share Posted June 28, 2008 You should start giving Toyota less credit, since they've lost their appeal at the U.S. Supreme Court. Apparently, Toyota is the one stealing the ideas of others: http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artic...0402/1148/rss25 Sounds like Toyota used any technology they thought they might get away with to get their Hybrids out first. By the time they lose the court battles they will have a marketing lead in Hybrids and would be able to engineer around the patent infringement. Ford and Honda has been able to do it legally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Reynolds Posted June 29, 2008 Share Posted June 29, 2008 I'm all for dropping it! I'm just not for giving Ford ALL the credit, nor Toyota ALL the credit... It's the best SUV we've ever owned, and I have an 09 on order, but I don't pretend it's something that it's not.. And that would be what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
08FEH Posted June 29, 2008 Share Posted June 29, 2008 And that would be what? You crack me up... do you read the thread before you type?? That would be " Ford's exclusive design", the statement that started this debate. The statement that you confirmed by typing " yes, it always was" People here are pretty clouded with pride and appear to believe whatever crap is fed to them about who's cvt it really is. If it makes you feel better to think that Ford designed something and then had AISIN build it for them, so be it..but what a bunch of garbage you have been fed. Many here cloud the Japanese parts issue for some reason with statements like Ford's Exclusive Design engineer Mary Ann Wright said "There is NO Toyota technology or parts in our vehicle". A flat out LIE. What a shame... Her statement here: http://www.businessweek.com/innovate/Nussb..._innovat_1.html Again, if you feel better thinking it's Ford's transmission, have at it.. It's really not worth the finger energy to keep debating.. Enjoy your FEH's as I do... Just don't forget that the CVT and yes the BATTERY too is built and shipped from Japan regardless of what you have been fed. Sad but true. Tip: Not everything you hear is always true in life....Do the research and find out for yourself.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkisler Posted June 29, 2008 Share Posted June 29, 2008 (edited) You crack me up... do you read the thread before you type?? That would be " Ford's exclusive design", the statement that started this debate. The statement that you confirmed by typing " yes, it always was" People here are pretty clouded with pride and appear to believe whatever crap is fed to them about who's cvt it really is. If it makes you feel better to think that Ford designed something and then had AISIN build it for them, so be it..but what a bunch of garbage you have been fed. Many here cloud the Japanese parts issue for some reason with statements like Ford's Exclusive Design engineer Mary Ann Wright said "There is NO Toyota technology or parts in our vehicle". A flat out LIE. What a shame... Her statement here: http://www.businessweek.com/innovate/Nussb..._innovat_1.html Again, if you feel better thinking it's Ford's transmission, have at it.. It's really not worth the finger energy to keep debating.. Enjoy your FEH's as I do... Just don't forget that the CVT and yes the BATTERY too is built and shipped from Japan regardless of what you have been fed. Sad but true. Tip: Not everything you hear is always true in life....Do the research and find out for yourself.. Normally, I don't like to sling poo on this forum, but you seem particularly hard headed. Are you, by chance, mlh5 in drag?? The transmission is made by Aisin. It is only coincidental that Toyota has an equity arrangement with Aisin. Nobody on this forum would suggest that Ford "invented" every part of the hybrid (or any car for that matter). Of course the engineers would first evaluate competitive vehicles, design a system, and scan the horizon for components best able to complete the system in a manufacturing environment. Of course that scan would include those suppliers of components that are already doing the job. Then there might be modifications to the design based on the availability, specification, and cost of those components. Ford chose the Aisan CVT because it did the job "off the shelf", was being produced in reasonable quantities, and offered a better cost equation than other choices. At around 20k per year, you don't get the luxury to design and produce your own box. Ford did the same thing for the other components of the hybrid including batteries. Although Toyota is building a manufacturing facility for batteries with Matsushita (so, is the prius built using Matsushita technology?), there is no way Ford could have developed batteries independently for a number of reasons including low volume and expertise. The process used to design the hybrid is no different in concept than the design for any other vehicle. With smaller engineering staffs at auto manufacturers, there is a lot of black box engineering with the suppliers taking the lead. Saying the Escape uses Toyota technology is a real stretch. Believe me, Toyota understands the value of its technology, and if Ford were using Toyota technology, there would be ongoing royalty payments. And, to the best of my knowledge, there are not. Once again, the fact that Aisin is likely making a per unit profit on transmissions and some of that is repatriated to Toyota is neither here nor there. The Fusion/Milan/Zephyr use/used an AW 6-speed. Would you say that the CD3's were developed using Toyota technology? The CX-9 uses an AW box. Would you say Mazda used Toyota technology to develop that model? But that gets confusing doesn't it as the Edge uses the JV box, so how could the CX9 use Toyota technology and the Edge use GM technology? Since the Japanese were let willingly into US plants after WWII, took lots of pictures, and copied (and perfected) US manufacturing technology, would you say that all Toyotas are built using US technology? You need to have a couple of beers, go get laid, and give this one up. Edited June 29, 2008 by Austin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Critic Posted June 29, 2008 Share Posted June 29, 2008 The transmission is made by Aisin. It is only coincidental that Toyota has an equity arrangement with Aisin. Nobody on this forum would suggest that Ford "invented" every part of the hybrid (or any car for that matter). Of course the engineers would first evaluate competitive vehicles, design a system, and scan the horizon for components best able to complete the system in a manufacturing environment. Of course that scan would include those suppliers of components that are already doing the job. Then there might be modifications to the design based on the availability, specification, and cost of those components. Ford chose the Aisan CVT because it did the job "off the shelf", was being produced in reasonable quantities, and offered a better cost equation than other choices. At around 20k per year, you don't get the luxury to design and produce your own box. Ford did the same thing for the other components of the hybrid including batteries. Correct. Ford might have had a BIG hand in designing the Transmission, No way would it put a line in, to make one for such low numbers. And it's not being done for the other hybrids about to hit the market either. And Ford is not ramping up for the future on hybids like others, because at this time, it doesn't look like this is the design path for the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Reynolds Posted June 29, 2008 Share Posted June 29, 2008 You crack me up... do you read the thread before you type?? My for someone that made this statement earlier on in this thread, " A little bit on the attack side tho..", you seem to be doing just that. Anyhow.... Then you go on to make this statement: People here are pretty clouded with pride and appear to believe whatever crap is fed to them about who's cvt it really is. If it makes you feel better to think that Ford designed something and then had AISIN build it for them, so be it..but what a bunch of garbage you have been fed. Well why should we believe what you have to say? Have you posted anything detailing why the development of the HEV Escape isn't the product of Ford's engineering work? All you've done is post a part content label, and question otherwise. That doesn't support your argument, all it does is state where the transmission was produced. Nothing more nothing less. If you 'knew' so much you would have gone about it an entirely different way. From post one that 'parts content label' is the only fact that your argument has centered on Now you are attacking a Ford Engineer calling her a liar? On the basis of her stating that there isn't any Toyota tech in the Escape Hybrid. Is the CVT an exact swap from Ford to Toyota? Did it require simple modification? Did it require a major rework? I mean if I'm not mistaken it was Ford that introduced an AWD Hybrid first, not Toyota. Is Aisin even wholly owned by Toyota? Even better yet, did Toyota do all the work from the get go without the help of the Japanese gov't or Keiretsu? Isn't it odd that cash rich Honda, a company that can afford to produce and lease a Hydrogen vehicle, be so laggard when it comes to hybrids? So I ask. Where are your details? Documentation? Until you can produce either, then your argument is moot around here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Critic Posted June 29, 2008 Share Posted June 29, 2008 Now you are attacking a Ford Engineer calling her a liar? On the basis of her stating that there isn't any Toyota tech in the Escape Hybrid. I mean if I'm not mistaken it was Ford that introduced an AWD Hybrid first, not Toyota. That Transmission is a lot diferent than most others, It's a Sun / Planet style. Does the Pirus use this type? I don't think so, but I don't know. However, Mary Ann was more than just an Engineer, she was the Gruppenleiter on this whole platform. When she said something in a public release they do not "lie". Selling cars for over 100 years, people have learned that Difference. Almost from day one, Ford put out the word that their system was their own, but people have heard that Ford had to "Buy" things from Toyoda and it evolves into a self-full-filling prophesy that Ford is now using everything from someone else. It's a "I heard from my brother-in-law's hairdresser that his butchers brothers aunt was about to Buy Ford, but heard it was a toyoda, so she cut out the middleman and just bought one of those." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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