CVPI to be made through 2011

[Hemiman]

Here's an interesting thought,

in Australia we use the Euro Combined fuel consumption cycle the results are in l/ 100 klm and USmpg,

A 4.0 I-6 Falcon gets just similar fuel economy as a 4-cyl Camry, the GM Alloytec HFV6 is terrible!!!

So don't compare V6 Pontiac G8 to Falcon - they're worlds apart - I know which one i'd have.

 

Ford FG Falcon

4.0L 6cyl, Auto 5 speed: 10.5 litres/100 klm...(22.5 USmpg): :yup:

 

4.0L 6cyl, Auto 6 speed: 10.2 litres/100 klm...(23.1 USmpg): :happy feet:

 

 

Toyota Camry

2.4L 4cyl, Auto 5 speed: 9.9 litres/100 klm...(23.8 USmpg): :shrug:

 

 

Holden VE Commodore/Pontiac G8

3.6L 6cyl, Auto 5 speed: 11.2 litres/100 klm...(21.9 USmpg):

 

 

An Ecoboost I-4 Falcon would have a combined fuel consumption near on 28 US mpg

 

Now that would be impressive!!!

 

Good post,

 

I'm so tired of, "FWD gets better mpg than RWD".

 

At one time this was true. FWD saved approx 500lbs over RWD.

 

Those days are over with crash safety. The modern RWD drivetain serves double duty to distribute power and impact energy. That eng-tran-driveshaft-rearend, is very effective at spreading the impact around the cab, through the structure. FWD has to add material to achive the same goal. The weight advantage no longer exists.

 

Point is, given equal mass, RWD & FWD are near equal in mpg. I say near equal, because RWD actually has an advantage when you calculate drivetrain losses due to steering angle on FWDs.

 

FWD is still offers an advantage in packaging however.

[Hemiman]

I remember driving my first FWD car (1982 Escort) for the first time in snow, I was all...."Wow, this thing is great in the snow...." that is until I hit a curve and the back end got loose in the slop....I did what I had always done in my RWD cars of the past....backed off the gas.....WHOA......next thing you know, the back end is in front and I am spinning...yikes! That is when I learned that in a FWD car...you don't get off the gas, you stay on the gas to pull you through....what a ride....

 

 

Reminds me of my "first time".

 

Had a friend a couple years younger than me. Upon his HS graduation, (1981), his grandmother offered to buy him his choice of cars. Being a Chevy guy, he chose GM's latest "performance car", ( I don't think the Vette was in play). Anyhow he comes over with his brand new Citation X-11. After examining the 2.8 60deg V6, (I actually thought GM had copied Ford's V6 that I had seen in a Pinto Wagon) he says "you've got to drive this thing", and gives me the keys. We take off down the road and come to a stop to turn right. He says, "when you turn, PUNCH IT"! So, I did just that. While I'm fighting the engine for control of the wheel, he's yelling, "can you feel the power"! I'm saying "yeah, this thing has lots of power"!

 

I later learned that that power was called torque-steer.

Edited August 21, 2008 by Hemiman

[P71_CrownVic]

Perhaps we are just looking at this in completely the wrong way. Maybe Ford shouldn't worry about volume in some cases as much as they worry about image and posterity. Bring us a legitimate FLAGSHIP RWD sedan for the Ford lineup and let it sell in small volumes. With the development costs largely covered by other programs anyway, it's unlikely they'd need to sell a ton of them to make a profit. It would benefit Ford's image and would give many a vehicle they have wanted for some time. Would it step on Lincoln's toes a little bit? Maybe, but who cares? Use the same platform to give Lincoln a legitimate flagship RWD sedan also and they shouldn't complain too much about it.

 

I think what I'm getting at is, it doesn't have to be a "Taurus or..." situation. It could very easily be a "Taurus and..." situation. Taurus will never have what it takes to be a true flagship type of vehicle for the Ford lineup. It's simply too plebian in its roots and execution. A RWD fullsizer could be though. The Crown Vic held that role once upon a time. Something else can fill it again in the future.

 

Man...what does that sound like:

 

Panther>D3

[NickF1011]

Man...what does that sound like:

 

Panther>D3

 

Hmmm....wasn't D3 developed from a previously existing platform also?

 

Oh yeah. It was.

 

And umm...what the heck else can the Panther platform share with anything? Not much. It serves its own needs and nothing more. It is a dead-end platform in the company portfolio.

Edited August 21, 2008 by NickF1011

[P71_CrownVic]

Hmmm....wasn't D3 developed from a previously existing platform also?

 

Yeah...a platform that came to the market in 1999.

 

I guess since the Panther supposedly has a "30 year old platform", the Lincoln Taurus, Flex, Ford Taurus, etc all ride on a 9 year old platform.

[NickF1011]

Yeah...a platform that came to the market in 1999.

 

I guess since the Panther supposedly has a "30 year old platform", the Lincoln Taurus, Flex, Ford Taurus, etc all ride on a 9 year old platform.

 

That still gives it a 21 year advantage.

[matthewq4b]

Well even the much more mainstream Chrysler LX cars are down by double digits in sales this year. It was a neat little fad while it lasted.

 

 

Most of Ford's vehicles down by double digits this year. Including most of the Lincoln line up FWD's and all. So what's the point?

 

Also the vehicle's are now going on 5 and 4 years old. Sales are bound to fall just due to aging product add in to the mix a flagging economy and it becomes apparent that the segment it's self is not just the issue.

Not like Fords Large FWD's have set sales records and those are FWD Cars.

 

Heck Fords F series are down by 50% does that the the fad is over and the segment is dead ? Not freaken hardly.

 

Also the bulk of the Vehicles sold in NA are still RWD. So that whole comment about people being scared of it crap. There is a much larger percentage of the population that have no experience in one. And many that have not driven modern ones. That are far cry from the one wheel wonders of old. Any one that any amount of experience in driving winter Knows a properly equipped RWD is superior to a FWD. In the snow RWD is superior the GM handily out performed Mazda 6 Every we got any amount of snow. I always had to back the GM out first so the wife could get the 6 outta the drive way. Other wise I would be pushing to get the damn thing moving, winter tires and all.

 

 

SUV Guy is a RWD convert he had only ever FWDS till the 300 and he seen the light at how much more controllable the 300 is over the Intrepid in the winter.

 

 

The Marking blitz during the initial FWD Domestic launch did a good job at brain washing the uneducated consumer in to believing that FWD was better in the winter. Mind you they were alot better than most of the RWD sleds being built at the time. But it is not 1981 any more.

 

 

Also when you move in an AWD car from a FWD car you have to relearn every thing any way. As AWD cars handle like RWDs not FWD's and all the recovery techniques in an AWD are basically the same as RWD.

 

The issue has never been about weather or not the segment is viable. Chrysler proved that it is. While the anti RWD crowd here was saying the segment was dead the LX were racking up 250K and better yearly sales. RWD and all. The drive train layout in RWD cars also allows for many more styling options. As the power package sits much lower in the chassis allowing for a lower hood line and much shorter front over hangs and not the bulbous noses that are necessary on FWD.

 

 

Ford let the panthers and their Full size RWD offerings stagnate simple as that. The cars lost the bulk of their sales not because of a dead end segment but because of gross negligence.

 

 

 

 

Posted by NickF1011

 

Perhaps we are just looking at this in completely the wrong way. Maybe Ford shouldn't worry about volume in some cases as much as they worry about image and posterity. Bring us a legitimate FLAGSHIP RWD sedan for the Ford lineup and let it sell in small volumes. With the development costs largely covered by other programs anyway, it's unlikely they'd need to sell a ton of them to make a profit. It would benefit Ford's image and would give many a vehicle they have wanted for some time. Would it step on Lincoln's toes a little bit? Maybe, but who cares? Use the same platform to give Lincoln a legitimate flagship RWD sedan also and they shouldn't complain too much about it.

 

I think what I'm getting at is, it doesn't have to be a "Taurus or..." situation. It could very easily be a "Taurus and..." situation. Taurus will never have what it takes to be a true flagship type of vehicle for the Ford lineup. It's simply too plebeian in its roots and execution. A RWD full sizer could be though. The Crown Vic held that role once upon a time. Something else can fill it again in the future.

 

 

Exactly Nick.

 

Ford had the largest customer base for the segment more than any other manufacture. But they have ignored it and let others chip away at it. The full size RWDs from Ford still have some of the highest loyalty customers in the industry. Must most have fled to other vehicles. Justifiably so. or are be forcibly told to buy some thing else. Probly the first time any company has turned customers away. Harry a buddy of mine was looking for a new GM and the dealer flat out told him they would not order him in one, And to look at the Taurus instead. Pretty hard to compete in todays market with Vehicles that in essence are older than a lot of the posters on this board. And dealers are telling people they will not sell them one.

He ended up buying A Tahoe instead. I have noticed that a lot of former Panther owners here have moved in to full size SUV's Most seem to be moving it to the Tahoe or Yukon. I myself moved in to a used Excursion. If really I had to buy new it more than likely would have been the Tahoe or Yukon as well.

 

 

The Full size RWD segment will never match the sales of the compact or the mid size cars. But Ford needs to have a Flag ship (the D3''s have failed miserably at this thus far, even available AWD did not help) and an offering in the segment. Ford has continually reaffirmed their commitment to providing the LEO's what they need. They still basically own this segment.

 

 

RWD has been and it still associated with higher end vehicles. Is it for every one absolutely not. But there are still many that desire a Full size RWD. The LX cars although decent are still lacking. Yes they are RWD but they do not have lost some of the things typically associated with a Full size RWD. Trunk space is abysmal the hip room is not there (one of the most important interior dimensions) the interior was designed by fisher price and not up to the standards required in the segment. The handling was-is a little squirrelly at the envelope and not predicable like the Panthers. The ride although decent still suffered from expansion joint thump. Basically it was the typical Chrysler. A good idea not properly executed.

 

A new RWD car needs to keep the best attributes of the Panthers. The durability and the low cost of operation. They have to appeal to the traditional RWD buyer and have enough style and features to attract new ones. A V6 offering is a must. As is the V8 Heck there was time when you could get every thing between a pedestrian 2BBL 302 to a 8BBL fire breathing 427 in the full size cars.

 

Ford is better positioned than any other manufacture to succeed in this segment. If Chrysler can pull it off with a lacking offering Ford should be able to easily dominate it once again. I mean seriously you think that Ford could not do a better job with a new full size RWD than Chrysler did with the LX cars.

 

 

Matthew

[P71_CrownVic]

That still gives it a 21 year advantage.

 

You would think that would help sales...guess not.

[matthewq4b]

Hmmm....wasn't D3 developed from a previously existing platform also?

 

Oh yeah. It was.

 

And umm...what the heck else can the Panther platform share with anything? Not much. It serves its own needs and nothing more. It is a dead-end platform in the company portfolio.

 

 

Sort of like the Mustang.

 

 

Matthew

[NickF1011]

Sort of like the Mustang.

 

 

Matthew

 

EXACTLY like the Mustang. Yes. Which is why the Mustang is moving to a shared architecture.

[matthewq4b]

EXACTLY like the Mustang. Yes. Which is why the Mustang is moving to a shared architecture.

 

 

Shared with what ? We do not know for sure.

 

And auto manufacturers will always at least one orphaned platform. It is the nature of the business. Unless you are only go to build for the core segments and nothing else. Or in one region

 

The panther serves 3 Models. not because it not able to do more as it is and has in the past. But because nothing else is built on it for some 20 years. The panther would be quite capable of spawning a light duty midsized P/U with minor mods.

 

And the panther has shared basic platform stuff in the past. The last Gen of Of F 150 2wd's used a slightly modified Panther front suspension. The Chassis is capable of handling every single RWD gasoline power plant ford makes including the V10

 

So saying the Panther has never given anything to any other Vehicles or product line is not entirely true either.

 

It is not that the platform is-was not capable of multiple uses. It just has never been utilized.

 

 

Matthew

[NickF1011]

Shared with what ? We do not know for sure.

 

No, but we are pretty certain that it will indeed be shared.

 

And auto manufacturers will always at least one orphaned platform. It is the nature of the business. Unless you are only go to build for the core segments and nothing else. Or in one region

 

Maybe. Maybe not. I can't think of any Ford vehicle that will be riding an orphan platform after 2012-2013.

 

The panther serves 3 Models. not because it not able to do more as it is and has in the past. But because nothing else is built on it for some 20 years. The panther would be quite capable of spawning a light duty midsized P/U with minor mods.

 

And the panther has shared basic platform stuff in the past. The last Gen of Of F 150 2wd's used a slightly modified Panther front suspension. The Chassis is capable of handling every single RWD gasoline power plant ford makes including the V10

 

So saying the Panther has never given anything to any other Vehicles or product line is not entirely true either.

 

It is not that the platform is-was not capable of multiple uses. It just has never been utilized.

 

 

Matthew

 

Yes, they were utilized more effectively in the past. Just as the Mustang had shared a lot of architecture in the past. However, they don't anymore. If they could find a way to utilize more of the Panther architecture elsewhere, giving them a reason to modernize the platform, that would be great, but I don't see it happening.

[630land]

With GM cancelling the RWD Impala and Buick, and some agengies switching to Tahoes, since they last longer than Vics, looks like Ford should come up with a cop version of the D3 Explorer. P71 and SysEng will have strokes, but then they dont really contribute to the bottom line anyway. With buying used cop cars or a GM every 18 years.

[armadamaster]

With GM cancelling the RWD Impala and Buick, and some agengies switching to Tahoes, since they last longer than Vics, looks like Ford should come up with a cop version of the D3 Explorer. P71 and SysEng will have strokes, but then they dont really contribute to the bottom line anyway. With buying used cop cars or a GM every 18 years.

 

[P71_CrownVic]

With GM cancelling the RWD Impala and Buick, and some agengies switching to Tahoes, since they last longer than Vics, looks like Ford should come up with a cop version of the D3 Explorer. P71 and SysEng will have strokes, but then they dont really contribute to the bottom line anyway. With buying used cop cars or a GM every 18 years.

 

[Milstar 04 Sport]

From Autosavant.com

 

"When digging into individual models, the highest fleet percentages (overall fleet sales, not just rentals) were:"

 

Ford Crown Victoria (94.23%) <-------- coming soon to auctions near you

Chevrolet Uplander (89.34%)

Dodge Magnum (75.43%)

Ford Econoline (71.95%)

Chrysler Sebring Convertible (69.95%)

 

"The individual models with more than 50% of all sales going to rental car companies are listed below:"

 

Chrysler Sebring Convertible (69.34%)

Dodge Magnum (62.64%)

Pontiac Grand Prix (62.07%)

Chrysler PT Cruiser (61.90%)

Mazda Mazda6 (58.59%)

Chrysler Sebring Sedan (54.53%)

Dodge Avenger (54.23%)

Mercury Grand Marquis (53.20%) <------ So much for all the 'loyal MGM buyers' out there.

Dodge Caliber (52.94%)

Suzuki XL7 (52.38%)

 

 

"I guess profits are a hard thing to give up in "these times"."

 

 

Profits? Why don't you back up your claim with actual facts? How much $$$ do the beloved cars bring home? If a MGM can be gotten at $18999, where is the big profit? Panther buyers are cheap and mainly buy used every 10 years, so the 'profits' are slim.

 

Ford has a good police/taxi market, so those are the true loyal customers, and at that, cities are now demanding more MPG, wich means new styles of taxis and coppers. So enjoy the trickle of brnad new Panthers while it lasts.

 

All the loyal used PI buyers don't bring in a dime to Ford HQ, and then they whine when the cars are losing sales, production, and life.

 

 

One right behind the Panthers, your creame of the crop, called the D-3, 48.1% Fleet sales.

 

Wingle out of that fact!

[timmm55]

One right behind the Panthers, your creame of the crop, called the D-3, 48.1% Fleet sales.

 

Wingle out of that fact!

 

48.1% is not "right behind" 94.23%.....duh

[2005Explorer]

If many departments are using Impalas, I don't see why they wouldn't look at Taurus' once the EcoBoost Taurus comes out. In AWD trim it might be a great police car, especially in Northern states that get a lot of snow in the winter. Plenty of power and lots of traction. It is well built (no matter what the haters say) and has lots of room and high safety ratings. The only issue I can see would be price. CV's are cheap and a car like this wouldn't be.

[suv_guy_19]

If many departments are using Impalas, I don't see why they wouldn't look at Taurus' once the EcoBoost Taurus comes out. In AWD trim it might be a great police car, especially in Northern states that get a lot of snow in the winter. Plenty of power and lots of traction. It is well built (no matter what the haters say) and has lots of room and high safety ratings. The only issue I can see would be price. CV's are cheap and a car like this wouldn't be.

 

Actually, if a police package was offered, I think some departments would buy the Taurus right now. Its more than powerful enough.

 

On a side not, I see that Ford has greatly expanded its ready to go police offerings (2009 brochure on fleet site). No Taurus though.

[Bob Rosadini]

If many departments are using Impalas, I don't see why they wouldn't look at Taurus' once the EcoBoost Taurus comes out. In AWD trim it might be a great police car, especially in Northern states that get a lot of snow in the winter. Plenty of power and lots of traction. It is well built (no matter what the haters say) and has lots of room and high safety ratings. The only issue I can see would be price. CV's are cheap and a car like this wouldn't be.

"Well built" -for a unibody car that is. There is just no way that any vehicle will stand up to constant daily abuse the way a Panther will. I think an interesting item to follow will be what becomes of the 'hot" police Chargers once they hit the end of the line? Will they be recycled into other municipal departments to run another 50 or 100m miles? Will they be sold off to be converted to cabs? I doubt it on both counts. When that time comes then you will see the true life cycle cost of a Panther versus these other FWD/AWD unibody wonders.

 

On another note, one of my nephews is proudly showing me his new Taurus. nice car, loaded. I asked him what he was getting for hiway MPG. Low 24's. My 07 CV Sport gets consistant 23.8's at 75 mph and just a tad over 22 average. It just turned 64,000, is solid as a rock and has not been back to the dealer since the day it was delivered. Looks? A matter of opinion, but I was parked at a curb last week and was inside a shop within earshot of the curb. Two young guys (as opposed to an old fart like me) go walking by and I hear one say--"what is this? (its black on black with a set of Hela fogs in the front fascia), they stop-look it over, and read the rear badge. Again a matter of opinion but I can't help but think of what a little bit of marketing effort and a few bucks invested in some minot sheet metal would do for the sales figures. I won't comment on a five speed, but that too would be nice.

[NickF1011]

There is just no way that any vehicle will stand up to constant daily abuse the way a Panther will.

 

The Model T was probably more robust and reliable than the Panther. That's completely beside the point. There comes a time to move on.

[68Cougar]

Production continues 'til 2011, and the retail market still doesn't care.

 

The used car market rejoiced!

[armadamaster]

The Model T was probably more robust and reliable than the Panther. That's completely beside the point. There comes a time to move on.

 

 

Get with the times and compare it to a Tempo.

[Milstar 04 Sport]

48.1% is not "right behind" 94.23%.....duh

 

When the Taurus (D3) is made fleet only, it numbers will match.

 

If I was a car manufacture, I would be embarrassed is 1 out of 2 sales were to fleet, especially since I had designed it to sell to the public.

 

Looks like failure to me!

[Extreme4x4]

Looks like the first 1/2 of MY fleet sales to me (you know, the ones that are higher).

 

Nevermind.............. why confuse you with the truth.

 

BTW, the Taurus is desirable to government fleets. They like fullsize cars. That they can get a great fullsize car with AWD available, that is about the safest thing on 4 wheels, for not much more than the ancient CV................ woo hoo, I would be all over that also. Remember that government fleets rarely buy foreign.