Will Ford file bankruptcy?

[Mower Man]

What does everyone think? Will Ford file bankruptcy? Will they hold their hands out to the government for a bail out like everyone else? Will small shareholders (like myself ), get the shaft. Just wondering what everyone was thinking.

[Trimdingman]

What does everyone think? Will Ford file bankruptcy? Will they hold their hands out to the government for a bail out like everyone else? Will small shareholders (like myself ), get the shaft. Just wondering what everyone was thinking.

 

I read something about the auto companies wanting a 50 billion dollar bail-out awhile back. If they have a shot at that, it would be in their interest to fail.

[goinbroke2]

Trim, don't encourage the trolls please?

[mlhm5]

Does anyone think USA total vehicle sales will be much above 13MM mark in 2009 or 2010?

[Mower Man]

Trim, don't encourage the trolls please?

 

Hey, I'm not a troll. Just curious what others are thinking.

[Pioneer]

Personally, I see one of two scenarios happening.

 

1. The Ford family does everything in it's power to keep Ford from filing bankruptcy, including lining up some sort of deal to take the company private.

 

2. The Ford family, tired of watching their family fortune slowly dwindle away into nothingness, sells off their "super shares" and the family gives up control. Then, a foreign company flush with cash (Hyundai/Kia, Nissan, Tata, the Chinese) takes over/merges with Ford and assumes control.

[fxcomet]

Jeez, you're a cheery lot today. How about this scenario: The sky doesn't fall. Ford weathers the financial storm because, of the "big 2.5", they're best positioned financially, managerially, and with future product that won't break the company to develop. It won't be easy and it'll be a tough winter and early spring, but look for improvement next year.

[Bones]

Jeez, you're a cheery lot today. How about this scenario: The sky doesn't fall. Ford weathers the financial storm because, of the "big 2.5", they're best positioned financially, managerially, and with future product that won't break the company to develop. It won't be easy and it'll be a tough winter and early spring, but look for improvement next year.

 

+1 fx

 

:banana piano:

Edited October 24, 2008 by Bones

[NickF1011]

2. The Ford family, tired of watching their family fortune slowly dwindle away into nothingness, sells off their "super shares" and the family gives up control. Then, a foreign company flush with cash (Hyundai/Kia, Nissan, Tata, the Chinese) takes over/merges with Ford and assumes control.

 

You left off "...and then Ford promptly loses 90% of its business."

[Bored of Pisteon]

Just keep watching the stock price because if it falls below $1.00 then it's taken off the exchange and traded over the counter for 30 days. Does K Mart ring a bell folks?

[Ford Jellymoulds]

Just keep watching the stock price because if it falls below $1.00 then it's taken off the exchange and traded over the counter for 30 days. Does K Mart ring a bell folks?

 

Fords shares are $1.92

 

GM share price is having another bad day they have dropped down 14% at the moment to $5.22

[RaZor]

Of course, there is an answer that would not require any tax-payer paid bail out that would definitely make for a different automotive market that our struggling industry (specifically the auto makers) have been forced to live in and fend off the possibility of the loss of 1.4 million jobs that depend on the Detroit 2.5 (and the related industries).

 

Our trade deficits, now running at nearly 7 percent of GDP every year, has resulted in our borrowing heavily from trading partners to pay for our "excess" consumption and our Free (rather than Fair) trade. Sooner or later, we are going to have to deal with our weakened economic condition (falling living standards). Sooner or later we will be compelled to reduce our consumption and pay off the overdue bills. The longer we wait, the greater the ultimate injury because, in the meantime, our trading partners will gain greater industrial capabilities, while US productive strength weakens further.

 

Americans can choose to blame China (or Japan, India, etc.) or disloyal multinationals, but the problem is grounded in US politics. The solution can be found only in Washington. China and other developing nations are pursuing national self-interest and doing what the system allows. Corporate execs are doing the job they're sworn to do -- focus on maximizing profit.

 

It's going to take an American governmental leadership to stop the bleeding (hemorrhaging) by changing two big things on global trade:

 

1) The US government must intervene unilaterally to cap the nation's swollen trade deficit and force it to shrink until balanced trade is achieved with our trading partners. The mechanics for doing this are allowed under WTO rules, though the emergency action has never been invoked by a wealthy nation, but then are we really a wealthy nation anymore? We are in fact a debtor nation – not a creditor nation anymore, right? Capping US trade deficits would have wrenching consequences at home and abroad but could force other nations to consider reforms in how the trading system now functions.

 

2) Our government must impose national policy direction on the behavior of US multinationals, directly influencing their investment decisions. This can be done most effectively through the tax code. A reformed corporate income tax would penalize those firms that move jobs and value-added production offshore while rewarding those that bring back investment in redeveloping the home country's economy. Yes, we have one of the highest corporate tax rates in the world – and IMO it should stay that way for any corporation that does not bring back their production investment to America. Those that do – should receive major tax discount (say, comparable to Ireland). Is that difficult for anyone understand? – it's called incentive motivation.

 

In reality, you cannot do one without the other. For instance, some US multinationals would respond, "Oh, no, you're not. I'm going overseas. I'm going to completely move and make my product over there and I'll send it back into the United States" (in response to the taxation portion). But then the government's position mandating balanced trade, circumvents such as response because then the amount that's shipped in has to equal the amount that's shipped out by companies. If no companies do that, then nothing can be shipped in either.

 

We all know that Japan and Korea would raise holy hell, but they have been controlling their markets for a long time. I suspect that such a doctrine (again, both parts must be done - just doing one will not work IMO) would give the Detroit 2.5 enough latitude for them to work through their problems and last through the economic slump - without the tax payer being ask to pick up the bill (again).

[RangerM]

I predict that Ford will do everything in its power to prevent a bankruptcy filing, however once GM does, and is free to "renegotiate" its contracts (especially with labor), Ford may not be in a position to avoid it.

 

Once GMs bankruptcy happens, Ford will face the prospect of being the only UAW-laden American vehicle manufacturer.

 

Ford, no matter its intent, must face reality once GM is out from under its burdensome overhead costs, and can emerge a severly-trimmed economic force.

 

There is nothing anyone can/could do about it, and Ford may have no choice, unless a "swell of patriotism" suddenly strikes the American market. I'd say, present company excluded, that is highly unlikely.

 

(sidenote) Several Michigan-representing lawmakers advocated for part of the bailout pie be spent on aiding people to purchase cars. Since GMAC will still loan to those with good credit scores, this can only mean one thing: "Subprime Car Loans" (Happy Halloween!)

[mettech]

Of course, there is an answer that would not require any tax-payer paid bail out that would definitely make for a different automotive market that our struggling industry (specifically the auto makers) have been forced to live in and fend off the possibility of the loss of 1.4 million jobs that depend on the Detroit 2.5 (and the related industries).

 

Our trade deficits, now running at nearly 7 percent of GDP every year, has resulted in our borrowing heavily from trading partners to pay for our "excess" consumption and our Free (rather than Fair) trade. Sooner or later, we are going to have to deal with our weakened economic condition (falling living standards). Sooner or later we will be compelled to reduce our consumption and pay off the overdue bills. The longer we wait, the greater the ultimate injury because, in the meantime, our trading partners will gain greater industrial capabilities, while US productive strength weakens further.

 

Americans can choose to blame China (or Japan, India, etc.) or disloyal multinationals, but the problem is grounded in US politics. The solution can be found only in Washington. China and other developing nations are pursuing national self-interest and doing what the system allows. Corporate execs are doing the job they're sworn to do -- focus on maximizing profit.

 

It's going to take an American governmental leadership to stop the bleeding (hemorrhaging) by changing two big things on global trade:

 

1) The US government must intervene unilaterally to cap the nation's swollen trade deficit and force it to shrink until balanced trade is achieved with our trading partners. The mechanics for doing this are allowed under WTO rules, though the emergency action has never been invoked by a wealthy nation, but then are we really a wealthy nation anymore? We are in fact a debtor nation – not a creditor nation anymore, right? Capping US trade deficits would have wrenching consequences at home and abroad but could force other nations to consider reforms in how the trading system now functions.

 

2) Our government must impose national policy direction on the behavior of US multinationals, directly influencing their investment decisions. This can be done most effectively through the tax code. A reformed corporate income tax would penalize those firms that move jobs and value-added production offshore while rewarding those that bring back investment in redeveloping the home country's economy. Yes, we have one of the highest corporate tax rates in the world – and IMO it should stay that way for any corporation that does not bring back their production investment to America. Those that do – should receive major tax discount (say, comparable to Ireland). Is that difficult for anyone understand? – it's called incentive motivation.

 

In reality, you cannot do one without the other. For instance, some US multinationals would respond, "Oh, no, you're not. I'm going overseas. I'm going to completely move and make my product over there and I'll send it back into the United States" (in response to the taxation portion). But then the government's position mandating balanced trade, circumvents such as response because then the amount that's shipped in has to equal the amount that's shipped out by companies. If no companies do that, then nothing can be shipped in either.

 

We all know that Japan and Korea would raise holy hell, but they have been controlling their markets for a long time. I suspect that such a doctrine (again, both parts must be done - just doing one will not work IMO) would give the Detroit 2.5 enough latitude for them to work through their problems and last through the economic slump - without the tax payer being ask to pick up the bill (again).

 

What about the consumer's, free choice?

[RaZor]

What about the consumer's, free choice?

You are totally clueless aren't you?

 

You could always go to S Korea, or Japan, or even Germany and then you would have "free choice" of not only their products - but ours too! Oh wait, that won't work, will it? First they won't even be available there and if you somehow, someway were able to find them -- you would pay - a fair price for them, right? Wrong!!!

 

We'll just continue to send all of our industry to other countries (apparently you can't seem to grasp the fact that sooner or later the cost of foreign imported goods are going to escalate rapidly in this country - if this trade imbalance is allowed to continue - but by then we will not have any manufacturing base here – we will just have huge debts and huge unemployment).

 

Here's something that might want to (actually better) read: http://www.eagleforum.org/psr/2007/may07/psrmay07.html

<at least read the part entitled: How Foreigner Cheat Americans on Trade>

Here's another : http://www.capacity-magazine.com/wmspage.cfm?parm1=235

 

Here's another : http://www.upjohninst.org/publications/wp/06-130.pdf

 

Here's another: http://www.vdare.com/roberts/070909_rip.htm

 

"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." -- Thomas Jefferson

 

Now you don't have any excuse for not understanding what is happening (and what will happen if nothing is done) - but only if you read and comprehend the information available in the above links (which should give you a good start). It amazes me how people cannot seem to grasp that a Trade Deficit - is in fact a deficit - any way that you frame it - that will someday have to be paid for - by us. Maybe it's because we Americans are used to running up credit card debt without ever paying it off?

[frydguy79]

the unions contract's are not the cause of the problems with Ford it is all of the golden parachutes and stock options, bonus's and asinine pay that the top brass get that needs cut to the bone.

no single exec is worth millions, what a con job

but this does not seem to come up during the talks

Edited October 25, 2008 by frydguy79

[mettech]

You are totally clueless aren't you?

 

You could always go to S Korea, or Japan, or even Germany and then you would have "free choice" of not only their products - but ours too! Oh wait, that won't work, will it? First they won't even be available there and if you somehow, someway were able to find them -- you would pay - a fair price for them, right? Wrong!!!

 

We'll just continue to send all of our industry to other countries (apparently you can't seem to grasp the fact that sooner or later the cost of foreign imported goods are going to escalate rapidly in this country - if this trade imbalance is allowed to continue - but by then we will not have any manufacturing base here – we will just have huge debts and huge unemployment).

 

Here's something that might want to (actually better) read: http://www.eagleforum.org/psr/2007/may07/psrmay07.html

<at least read the part entitled: How Foreigner Cheat Americans on Trade>

Here's another : http://www.capacity-magazine.com/wmspage.cfm?parm1=235

 

Here's another : http://www.upjohninst.org/publications/wp/06-130.pdf

 

Here's another: <a href="http://www.vdare.com/roberts/070909_rip.htm" target="_blank">http://www.vdare.com/roberts/070909_rip.htm</a>

 

"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." -- Thomas Jefferson

 

Now you don't have any excuse for not understanding what is happening (and what will happen if nothing is done) - but only if you read and comprehend the information available in the above links (which should give you a good start). It amazes me how people cannot seem to grasp that a Trade Deficit - is in fact a deficit - any way that you frame it - that will someday have to be paid for - by us. Maybe it's because we Americans are used to running up credit card debt without ever paying it off?

 

 

:shades:

 

The deficit is the result of consumer choice and high overhead in the USA. :reading:

[Trimdingman]

the unions contract's are not the cause of the problems with Ford it is all of the golden parachutes and stock options, bonus's and asinine pay that the top brass get that needs cut to the bone.

no single exec is worth millions, what a con job

but this does not seem to come up during the talks

 

These things are just crumbs in the big picture. What is needed is sales. If it costs a lot of money to get the best people, then it is worth it. When you go cheap on help, you undermine the whole company. That is the last place that they should be cutting, because they need good experienced people. When there are too many orders, they pull out all the stops to get them out. I have worked voluntary Sundays doubled up on a job getting double time. That is four times the labor cost. They are willing to pay that much in a pinch to get the units out. Now, they want to get rid of all the experienced workers and hire off the street just to save a few bucks an hour in wages. That is stupid. With Wall Street now dictating to the car companies, they will soon go the way of Wall Street.

Edited October 25, 2008 by Trimdingman

[frydguy79]

These things are just crumbs in the big picture. What is needed is sales. If it costs a lot of money to get the best people, then it is worth it. When you go cheap on help, you undermine the whole company. That is the last place that they should be cutting, because they need good experienced people. When there are too many orders, they pull out all the stops to get them out. I have worked voluntary Sundays doubled up on a job getting double time. That is four times the labor cost. They are willing to pay that much in a pinch to get the units out. Now, they want to get rid of all the experienced workers and hire off the street just to save a few bucks an hour in wages. That is stupid. With Wall Street now dictating to the car companies, they will soon go the way of Wall Street.

 

 

guys like Jim Farley are great, but guys like Daryl need to go down the road

[sandiegan]

The real question is will the big 3 get a bailout?

[FLLMTR]

There are days that I think this company deserves to go bankrupt.

 

1) Where are the flex fuel vehicles?

2) Where are the hybrids?

3) Where are the cars that can compete with Honda and Toyota?

4) Why the hell can't Lincoln produce one friggin car that can compete with Lexus, BMW, Audi, or Infiniti?

 

Ford keeps making one bad decision after another. Flame me. I don't care. This company will be bankrupt inside of a year if it can't deliver on a product that can lead the competition. Ford brass needs to stop talking crap and start delivering on products that can lead market segments.

[NickF1011]

1) Where are the flex fuel vehicles?

 

Rumor is all of the EcoBoost engines will be flex capable.

 

2) Where are the hybrids?

 

Mariner, Escape, Fusion, and Milan aren't enough?

 

3) Where are the cars that can compete with Honda and Toyota?

 

You mean like the Fusion that beats the Accord and Camry in initial quality? The Edge that sells as well as the Pilot and Highlander? Not sure what you mean here.

 

4) Why the hell can't Lincoln produce one friggin car that can compete with Lexus, BMW, Audi, or Infiniti?

 

Compete how? The MKS is the 3rd best-selling large luxury car on the market, behind only the 7-series and S-class. Would it be nice if they had a nice fancy shmancy RWD platform to toy with? Sure. But where do you propose they get the money for this? It would come out of programs like the Fusion hybrid, Fiesta, etc that are catching them up in, frankly, much more important segments.

 

Ford keeps making one bad decision after another. Flame me. I don't care. This company will be bankrupt inside of a year if it can't deliver on a product that can lead the competition. Ford brass needs to stop talking crap and start delivering on products that can lead market segments.

 

You will get flamed because you are making no sense. Compared to where Ford was only a few years ago, it's a freaking miracle what their lineup looks like now.

[jpd80]

Ford is on the verge of a product explosion, they are going to try to do everything well.

 

Don't expect anything much form GM or Chrysler next year, maybe paper aeroplanes......

Edited November 13, 2008 by jpd80

[J-150]

Just keep watching the stock price because if it falls below $1.00 then it's taken off the exchange and traded over the counter for 30 days. Does K Mart ring a bell folks?

 

 

 

you mean the same KMArt that turned aound and bought Sears as soon as it came out of protection?

[Bored of Pisteon]

you mean the same KMArt that turned aound and bought Sears as soon as it came out of protection?

 

That was a fluke, but I wouldn't be surprised if Ford bought out GM using your theory.