I just freaking lost it...

[Len_A]

Another forum I'm a member of, in fact a founding member of, had our administrator post (in restricted Founding Members only section), last night, an anti-union comment that absolutely pissed me off. This morning I had to unload on this punk. Enjoy.

 

I work in manufacturing, non union and union, and still do. The vast majority of union workers are overpaid for their educational background.

You know, I read that last night and did a slow burn. I can't speak to your experiences, but around the auto industry, and the major suppliers of glass, steel and tires, there's a phrase used by human resources in ending the employment of people who can't physically handle the job: Not Suitable For Industrial Employment.

 

I see people post on line about being overpaid to turn a screw - what a load of crap. You've got most jobs requiring you to be on your feet 100% of the time, eight hours a day with two twelve minute breaks and a thirty minute lunch. Yea, twelve minute break - union contracts do deviate from the federal requirements of fifteen minutes. Mass relief now in almost all plants - meaning there's no person to give you a chance to go to the john and fill in for you on the assembly line. You hold it until everyone goes on break, and then you have twelve minutes to make a mad dash for the johns, get in line, take a leak and get back to the line to resume the mind numbing work.

 

Then there's the "paid for turning a screw" mentality. Yea, right. More like position the part, grab a threaded fastener, position it, maybe by hand, maybe with a four-and-a-half pound air tool that may or may not be hung on a tool assist, drive the fastener down, then get the hell out of the way for the next car. Thirty to forty times an hour. Eight hours a day,with , if the car is selling well, a mandatory one hour a day of overtime. Five days a week. Unless the car is selling really well, in which case two successive eight hour shift Saturdays out of every three Saturdays are also mandatory overtime. 50 weeks a year if you're less than five years with the company, with both weeks of vacation set for you - one week in July, one week between Christmas and New Years. Let's also not forget that your work shift maybe afternoons, 4 PM until 12:30 PM, for God knows how many years, until your seniority moves up enough to get you on days, so you miss seeing your family five of seven days, 50 weeks a year, then 49 weeks a year (five to ten years seniority).

 

And there are equally demanding jobs in engine and transmission manufacturing plants as well. If you have the fortitude to hack it, which frankly I doubt. Not Suitable For Industrial Employment. I wasn't, and I was in a stamping plant with automatic stamping presses that you operated by switches and buttons, but being on your feet, and stopping the press to get in and clear jams out of the way, or reload blanks or coils of steel. Even with double hearing protection, ear plugs in the ear, ear muff type protection over the ears, the constant drumbeat of the stamping presses banging out parts was excruciating. I couldn't hack it for more than nine months. Even with double hearing protection, after two and a half decades in Ford's Dearborn Stamping Plant, and a total of thirty-five years with Ford, my Dad suffered some permanent hearing loss. His pension is an "entitlement"? Bull****. He earned every penny, as did his colleagues. I doubt if St***, B*****, B*, you or any of the rest of could last thirty to thirty-five years. I know for certain I couldn't. Overpaid? My @ss.

 

And you would begrudge them a fair income why? Because you've got a degree and they don't? You already have a major benefit to an education. You get to work in a clean, relatively noise free environment at a job that doesn't beat your body to death, even after decades of ergonomics and OSHA. And that's with a union - God forbid you try most of the suppler jobs, equally difficult, at lower pay and benefits without the UAW.

 

He can throw my fat white ass off that forum, for all I care. I may be "management" (laid off or not) but I don't bad mouth working people, of any type. Period.

[xr7g428]

Len, we have a similar background. I have great respect for the people on the line. But your are missing one point:

The vast majority of union workers are overpaid for their educational background.

This is true. In the case of autoworkers, the work they do more than justifies the higher wage. They trade hard work for a better wage. This is not true for ALL union workers. I deal with union workers at trade shows that I have to bribe just to get them to do their job. If I need a display light unpacked from a box, I have to deal with three unions to get one guy to take it out of the box, another to install it on the display and another to plug it in. All work I would be happy to do myself, but I am barred from doing it in non right to work states. This is the kind of thing that makes people despise the unions.

 

I think the UAW needs to get on board with helping to sell cars. UAW labor needs to be presented as the best in the world. Right now too many people have negative views of the UAW. When I was a kid, we looked for the UNION label because it meant quality. We need to change the way people think about wht the UAW brings to the table, right now they think it just means higher prices. Getting mad at the customer never makes a sale. You didn't convince any one that UAW workers are the worth the money, you just convinced them that the jobs are crappy, dangerous, and demeaning. Now why would any one want to save those jobs?

[NickF1011]

Len, we have a similar background. I have great respect for the people on the line. But your are missing one point: This is true. In the case of autoworkers, the work they do more than justifies the higher wage. They trade hard work for a better wage. This is not true for ALL union workers. I deal with union workers at trade shows that I have to bribe just to get them to do their job. If I need a display light unpacked from a box, I have to deal with three unions to get one guy to take it out of the box, another to install it on the display and another to plug it in. All work I would be happy to do myself, but I am barred from doing it in non right to work states. This is the kind of thing that makes people despise the unions.

 

I encounter similar things at my job. We're supposed to complete a Move Request for any equipment to be moved around the building so the unionized movers can do it. So, if we follow the rules, we receive a request from a customer to move something, then fill out a Move Request and e-mail that in, wait for a response from a union rep who will give us a timeframe for the move, and then wait for the move to be completed. Meanwhile, the customer is wondering why the heck their new computer monitor hasn't shown up for over a week when they know it's sitting on a shelf in the warehouse ready to go.

[fordmantpw]

I encounter similar things at my job. We're supposed to complete a Move Request for any equipment to be moved around the building so the unionized movers can do it. So, if we follow the rules, we receive a request from a customer to move something, then fill out a Move Request and e-mail that in, wait for a response from a union rep who will give us a timeframe for the move, and then wait for the move to be completed. Meanwhile, the customer is wondering why the heck their new computer monitor hasn't shown up for over a week when they know it's sitting on a shelf in the warehouse ready to go.

 

Exactly the same at a client I worked at before. The staff was unable to move their own PC's (these are IT folks BTW), so they had to ask the "plant helpers" to move it in a fashion similar to what you mentioned. It could take 3 days to get a PC moved from one cube to another or to a different work area so we could work as a group.

 

Now, since I was a consultant and not staff, I could move my PC myself. Worked out great for me, but others had to wait days!

 

Oh, and don't even think about changing a burned out light bulb. Better to work in the dark for 3 days waiting for an electrician to change the bulb!

[Len_A]

Len, we have a similar background. I have great respect for the people on the line. But your are missing one point: This is true. In the case of autoworkers, the work they do more than justifies the higher wage. They trade hard work for a better wage. This is not true for ALL union workers. I deal with union workers at trade shows that I have to bribe just to get them to do their job. If I need a display light unpacked from a box, I have to deal with three unions to get one guy to take it out of the box, another to install it on the display and another to plug it in. All work I would be happy to do myself, but I am barred from doing it in non right to work states. This is the kind of thing that makes people despise the unions.

 

I think the UAW needs to get on board with helping to sell cars. UAW labor needs to be presented as the best in the world. Right now too many people have negative views of the UAW. When I was a kid, we looked for the UNION label because it meant quality. We need to change the way people think about what the UAW brings to the table, right now they think it just means higher prices. Getting mad at the customer never makes a sale. You didn't convince any one that UAW workers are the worth the money, you just convinced them that the jobs are crappy, dangerous, and demeaning. Now why would any one want to save those jobs?

Yes, there are too many feather bedding rules, but painting all organized labor with broad strokes isn't fair either. Even the UAW has been guilty of that feather bedding in the past, but that's also no longer the case, as those rules, along with

 

As a sales professional (albeit an out of work one), the problem today in promoting Union Made equals Quality Made, is that the poor design and engineering of the past management mistakes blots out the value of the the work of manufacturing employees, both union and non union alike. I even seen slams at the non-union Toyota factory employees, posted after it was revealed that Toyota employees out-earned their UAW counterparts last year. It's like trying to convert an absolutely closed-mind. And this guy was a regular working slob as recently as three years ago, working his way through college. Now that he's a white collar professional, he looks down his nose at people who thirty-six months ago were his working peers.

 

Why would anyone fight to save them? Because they pay an income, taxes and support their local communities. Anyone with the fortitude to perform crappy, dangerous, and demeaning jobs, day in and day out, need to be given the same respect as anyone else who works for a living.

[Versa-Tech]

And you would begrudge them a fair income why? Because you've got a degree and they don't? You already have a major benefit to an education. You get to work in a clean, relatively noise free environment at a job that doesn't beat your body to death, even after decades of ergonomics and OSHA. And that's with a union - God forbid you try most of the suppler jobs, equally difficult, at lower pay and benefits without the UAW.

 

He can throw my fat white ass off that forum, for all I care. I may be "management" (laid off or not) but I don't bad mouth working people, of any type. Period.

I know I'm going to get a lot of heat for saying this, but auto-unions in general disgust me. I have worked with skilled craftsman who hand-build cars for about the same pay with nowhere-near the benefits. I rarely heard any of them complain about anything. UAW workers have no perspective as to how the rest of the world works. In most other unskilled jobs, you work hard, you get hurt, you get fired and nobody gives a damn. Edited November 7, 2008 by Versa-Tech

[kpc655]

Len, we have a similar background. I have great respect for the people on the line. But your are missing one point: This is true. In the case of autoworkers, the work they do more than justifies the higher wage. They trade hard work for a better wage. This is not true for ALL union workers. I deal with union workers at trade shows that I have to bribe just to get them to do their job. If I need a display light unpacked from a box, I have to deal with three unions to get one guy to take it out of the box, another to install it on the display and another to plug it in. All work I would be happy to do myself, but I am barred from doing it in non right to work states. This is the kind of thing that makes people despise the unions.

 

I think the UAW needs to get on board with helping to sell cars. UAW labor needs to be presented as the best in the world. Right now too many people have negative views of the UAW. When I was a kid, we looked for the UNION label because it meant quality. We need to change the way people think about wht the UAW brings to the table, right now they think it just means higher prices. Getting mad at the customer never makes a sale. You didn't convince any one that UAW workers are the worth the money, you just convinced them that the jobs are crappy, dangerous, and demeaning. Now why would any one want to save those jobs?

 

I don't think their necessarily overpaid for their educational background...but they're certainly overpaid based on the competitive market value of the labor.

[Len_A]

I encounter similar things at my job. We're supposed to complete a Move Request for any equipment to be moved around the building so the unionized movers can do it. So, if we follow the rules, we receive a request from a customer to move something, then fill out a Move Request and e-mail that in, wait for a response from a union rep who will give us a timeframe for the move, and then wait for the move to be completed. Meanwhile, the customer is wondering why the heck their new computer monitor hasn't shown up for over a week when they know it's sitting on a shelf in the warehouse ready to go.

Understood and acknowledged. When I was calling on a lot of Ford plants, especially dealing with the skilled trades, those rules got in the way of doing a lot of things. But that was eight to ten years ago and further back. Those rules are not only gone, in a lot of cases those very skilled trades jobs have been contracted out. And now, as far as the physically demanding autoworker jobs, now's there's no chance to move into less demanding jobs, because now those position, like shipping/recieving, janatorial, and material handling are subcontracted out to lower paying contractors. I just ran into a cashier at the grocery store who just quit from Ford Dearborn Engine Plant, where she was working for a contractor in shipping and recieiving. Grocery ctore cashier position pays better.

 

 

Exactly the same at a client I worked at before. The staff was unable to move their own PC's (these are IT folks BTW), so they had to ask the "plant helpers" to move it in a fashion similar to what you mentioned. It could take 3 days to get a PC moved from one cube to another or to a different work area so we could work as a group.

 

Now, since I was a consultant and not staff, I could move my PC myself. Worked out great for me, but others had to wait days!

 

Oh, and don't even think about changing a burned out light bulb. Better to work in the dark for 3 days waiting for an electrician to change the bulb!

Like I told NickF1011, understood & acknowledged, but I don't think that featherbedding should indict every single hourly manufacturing job out there. It's unfair, and it continues the us-verse-them mentality that benefits no one.

[NickF1011]

Understood and acknowledged. When I was calling on a lot of Ford plants, especially dealing with the skilled trades, those rules got in the way of doing a lot of things. But that was eight to ten years ago and further back. Those rules are not only gone, in a lot of cases those very skilled trades jobs have been contracted out. And now, as far as the physically demanding autoworker jobs, now's there's no chance to move into less demanding jobs, because now those position, like shipping/recieving, janatorial, and material handling are subcontracted out to lower paying contractors. I just ran into a cashier at the grocery store who just quit from Ford Dearborn Engine Plant, where she was working for a contractor in shipping and recieiving. Grocery ctore cashier position pays better.

 

 

Like I told NickF1011, understood & acknowledged, but I don't think that featherbedding should indict every single hourly manufacturing job out there. It's unfair, and it continues the us-verse-them mentality that benefits no one.

[/indent]

 

Oh, I don't think the unions are necessarily bad all the way around. I was just posting anecdotally, not necessarily as an indictment against unions in general.

[lfeg]

There is a huge perception problem that the UAW has to overcome. I saw this same thing at a Delphi plant (not UAW, but another union). The union workers received very little sympathy from others who did similar work in non union shops when there were mass layoffs and cuts at Delphi. The general attitude was "now the worm turns, and they are getting payback for the gravy train years, why should I care about them". The auto workers are not the only ones who have tough jobs. there are countless others on their feet all day in noisy/dirty environments. I too have UAW horror stories, and it took many years for the somewhat undeserved reputation to be built up.

 

Labor and benefit costs are one part of the equation, and this cannot be denied. The unfortunate thing is that the detroit automakers now have many fewer workers, but still have to support and fund commitments made during good times. The UAW along with the guys running the show are now the whipping boys.

[Len_A]

Oh, I don't think the unions are necessarily bad all the way around. I was just posting anecdotally, not necessarily as an indictment against unions in general.

Oh man, can I join you in the anecdotes like yours! LOL! Wish you could have seen me doing a slow burn waiting for an electrician to cut power to a pump and put a lockout tag on the circuit breaker, for a pump. Took an entire afternoon to move a pump from one building to the repair crib, so they could take it apart for me (I had to do a failure analysis on the seals). That was in 1992. Today, lost almost all that work to contractors. I hate to say they caused that to happen, but if it walks like a duck....

 

That said, I'm not going to slam the assembly employees because of the skilled trades featherbedding. And mind you, featherbedding or not, I've found the UAW skilled trades to be better educated, and perform far better repair work than even other union skilled trades, let alone the non-union skilled trades I've run across in a quarter of a century of outside industrial sales experience.

[xr7g428]

Let me try to say this again. For the most part, I don't really care about unions in general. In fact I don't think it makes sense to do so because every situation is different. What I care about is the US Automotive Industry, and for the most part that means the UAW.

 

Auto workers on the line at not over paid. It may sound good to say that Toyota pays what they do because of the UAW, but the truth is, they pay what they have to pay. Toyota would cut off their own grandmother if it made economic sense. Any one that thinks otherwise has never been on the line, or is somehow delusional about the nature of Japanese (really all) business.

 

I think it would be illustrative for posters to say whether they have actually spent time as an employee, on an assembly line. every one is entitled to their opinion, but it might provide some insight into where they are coming from.

[atomaro]

[quote

 

The vast majority of union workers are overpaid for their educational background.

 

 

 

This is where the problem is. People associate education with what you should be paid. Education is not a free pass. Thats BS. You should be paid for what value you give to whatever company you work at. Last time I checked hard work, pride, determination, etc are the qualities that distinguish you from the pack.

[Bored of Pisteon]

[quote

 

The vast majority of union workers are overpaid for their educational background.

 

 

 

 

This is where the problem is. People associate education with what you should be paid. Education is not a free pass. Thats BS. You should be paid for what value you give to whatever company you work at. Last time I checked hard work, pride, determination, etc are the qualities that distinguish you from the pack.

 

But in the long run. Education is a big waste of $$$$$ and you're in debt up to your eyeballs. So what good is it?

[Bored of Pisteon]

Hey Len. I know a good place you can anonymously post and vent out some steam while laughing at all the dickheads on there. It's called the Metro Detroit Rant & Raves section of Craigslist!

 

The things you'll see on there are just unbelieveable.

[Len_A]

Hey Len. I know a good place you can anonymously post and vent out some steam while laughing at all the dickheads on there. It's called the Metro Detroit Rant & Raves section of Craigslist!

 

The things you'll see on there are just unbelieveable.

I checked it out - you're right! Unbelievable!! Some real anti-union morons. I may have to post there just hit back.

[mettech]

But in the long run. Education is a big waste of $$$$$ and you're in debt up to your eyeballs. So what good is it?

 

 

:shades:

[Trimdingman]

I don't think their necessarily overpaid for their educational background...but they're certainly overpaid based on the competitive market value of the labor.

 

You have got approximately 1000 people assembling 500 cars in 8 hours. There isn't a more efficient operation than that in any industry in the world. At $30 an hour plus benefits, that amounts to $480 plus benefits for each car assembled, union labor cost. Labor cost is not the problem, but labor quality is essential to the operation. If you keep on hammering at labor, you are hammering at the head of the business. It doesn't make any sense. People without a clue are now calling the shots. They are more of a problem than labor.

Edited November 14, 2008 by Trimdingman

[suv_guy_19]

But in the long run. Education is a big waste of $$$$$ and you're in debt up to your eyeballs. So what good is it?

 

[Bored of Pisteon]

 

That line was a classic, I even included it in my signature now!

[Bored of Pisteon]

I checked it out - you're right! Unbelievable!! Some real anti-union morons. I may have to post there just hit back.

 

I told ya! Instant comedy relief!

 

And love all the other topics on there. Just amazing!