UAW needs to grant concessions

[truckster]

If taxpayer money is on it`s way from Washington D.C. all Ford employees need to participate in helping to ameliorate the latest crisis facing Ford Motor,otherwise there will be a public relation`s disaster.People will resent us even more and may refuse to purchase automobiles produced by the Big Three as a form protest.Please be careful how you respond as there are customers seeking knowledge and also those who have no interest in Ford who read these message boards hoping to catch us hating each other and may even, 'bait'.Remember this current market is unlike the 1970`s.There are many different makes and models of cars for people to chose from.Wake up and realize that the image of the UAW/Ford is important to the Company`s success and our jobs.What any concessions or givebacks should be is beyond my field of expertise.I do not like the thought of it anymore than you do.I am only saying that public opinion is important

 

 

If this comes to us in the form of a vote, then my vote will be no. We have not received a pay raise in quite a few years. I don't mind the lack of raises, but I do not want to lose anything. I hope the obama supporters are happy.

[Fatso]

Have you guys looked at sales lately? We could be working for free and the place would still be going out of business. Do you think the guys in the glasshouse are worried about this place? I would say only the one with his name on top of the building. The others are just bleeding the place dry and then they'll blame the business going broke on the uaw and move onto another company to do the same. When they work for 15 bucks I will too.

Hey it could always be worse,right?How would you like to be the largest holder of GM common stock?A very good point was made.That is,if the International UAW grants concessions to GM as a pre-condition to any 'bailout' then Alan Mulally will insist on the same.I do not think Ron Gettlefinger was present at that meeting with all those powerful politicians and all the CEO`s of the Big Three by accident.What is important is the long term picture meaning hopefully a return to profitability in a few years.

Edited November 11, 2008 by Fatso

[Twincam Harley]

The government is not going to stipulate that for them to loan Ford money that the workers have to take pay cuts! That's ridiculous.

 

The money is coming. Loan, bailout, whatever... The company may need it to survive beyond 2009. GM definitely needs it. They are about toast.

 

I will not agree to any pay cuts or concessions. The company has alot of cost saving opportunities provided by our most recent contract. They can now hire at half scale. The VEBA takes healthcare off the balance sheet very soon. The new European cars will be available in the U.S. in 18 months. The new Fusion, which gets better fuel economy than the Camry and Accord comes out in just a few months. Gas prices are low and trucks are moving again, at least better than what they were. When spring comes, things will start to get better.

 

This has nothing to do with our wages. We could work for minimum wage and the results would still be the same. It's the global economy. Even mighty Toyota and Honda are taking big hits. They just happen to have a better cash position.

 

Do what I do. Go to work, come home and enjoy my life. I can't worry about it and refuse to. I've been through a plant closing and moved. I'll do it again or find something else if I have to. Life goes on. There's too many here (and we all know who they are) that are chicken littles and doom and gloom prophets who think they told me something long ago that suddenly has come true). If they only knew how retarded they look.

[slider123]

The government is not going to stipulate that for them to loan Ford money that the workers have to take pay cuts! That's ridiculous.

 

The money is coming. Loan, bailout, whatever... The company may need it to survive beyond 2009. GM definitely needs it. They are about toast.

 

I will not agree to any pay cuts or concessions. The company has alot of cost saving opportunities provided by our most recent contract. They can now hire at half scale. The VEBA takes healthcare off the balance sheet very soon. The new European cars will be available in the U.S. in 18 months. The new Fusion, which gets better fuel economy than the Camry and Accord comes out in just a few months. Gas prices are low and trucks are moving again, at least better than what they were. When spring comes, things will start to get better.

 

This has nothing to do with our wages. We could work for minimum wage and the results would still be the same. It's the global economy. Even mighty Toyota and Honda are taking big hits. They just happen to have a better cash position.

 

Do what I do. Go to work, come home and enjoy my life. I can't worry about it and refuse to. I've been through a plant closing and moved. I'll do it again or find something else if I have to. Life goes on. There's too many here (and we all know who they are) that are chicken littles and doom and gloom prophets who think they told me something long ago that suddenly has come true). If they only knew how retarded they look.

 

 

Amen, Brother!!!!!

[Fatso]

We are definetly going to get a 'bailout' and I use that term loosely.The original 25 billion was a government loan because the credit ratings of the Big Three make borrowing money too expensive.Now additional billions of dollars are being asked for,under what conditions nobody knows and General Motors which was the World`s largest company for a long time is experiencing something right out of the Great Depression.I just thought it would be nice for the public image of the UAW if along with public taxpayer help that we the current employees of the Company understood and tried to help too.I was thinking like $50 a week.That is my nature anyways.I always give something back, just to show appreciation.Thank you for your comments and for keeping the topic respectable.I read every comment.Good Luck to everybody

[Len_A]

The government is not going to stipulate that for them to loan Ford money that the workers have to take pay cuts! That's ridiculous.

 

The money is coming. Loan, bailout, whatever... The company may need it to survive beyond 2009. GM definitely needs it. They are about toast.

 

I will not agree to any pay cuts or concessions. The company has alot of cost saving opportunities provided by our most recent contract. They can now hire at half scale. The VEBA takes healthcare off the balance sheet very soon. The new European cars will be available in the U.S. in 18 months. The new Fusion, which gets better fuel economy than the Camry and Accord comes out in just a few months. Gas prices are low and trucks are moving again, at least better than what they were. When spring comes, things will start to get better.

 

This has nothing to do with our wages. We could work for minimum wage and the results would still be the same. It's the global economy. Even mighty Toyota and Honda are taking big hits. They just happen to have a better cash position.

 

Do what I do. Go to work, come home and enjoy my life. I can't worry about it and refuse to. I've been through a plant closing and moved. I'll do it again or find something else if I have to. Life goes on. There's too many here (and we all know who they are) that are chicken littles and doom and gloom prophets who think they told me something long ago that suddenly has come true). If they only knew how retarded they look.

The government won't stipulate that the workers have to take pay cuts in exchange for the loans? Are you fucking kidding me? Look up the Chrysler Corporation Loan Guarantee Act of 1979 (Click on it for a link)

 

From the web site About.com:U.S. Politics:

 

Congress passed the bill 21 December 1979, but with strings attached. Congress required Chrysler to obtain private financing for $1.5 billion -- the government was co-signing the note, not printing the money -- and to obtain another $2 billion in "commitments or concessions [that] can be arranged by Chrysler for the financing of its operations." One of those options, of course, was reduce employees wages; in prior discussions, the union had failed to budge, but the contingent guarantee moved the union.

 

Trust me - public sentiment is to go after both executive compensation and union pay & benefits. Go to any of the car enthusiast web site and all you find is anti-union worker posts, even more so than anti bad management. And someone like me who peaks up for the UAW (thanks, BTW, to all the posters who told me to go fuck myself - thanks loads - my dad was one of the people who fought for your wages and benefits, morons), I get shouted down big time.

 

I ought to learn to keep my big mouth shut - I take it in the ass from everyone, my former union brothers, my fellow car enthusiasts, the know-it-alls on the financial pages. And God help me keep my big trap shut when I get the occassional job interview and some asswipe starts spouting off on how we need to let GM, Ford & Chrysler crash & burn, because, well, damn, don't y'all know there's a healthy Jap-O-nese auto industry down south, y'all. I want to throttle the motherfucker so bad, I'm thinking I'm going to stoke out in the middle of the interview.

 

But hey, that don't matter 'cause you guys forgot what Congress did to Chrysler, 'cause the same dumb asses who told me to fuck off are the ones who forgot just who the hell fought for the high wages that every fucking one of you sweat blood to earn, and that was our parents generation.

[Len_A]

Good-Luck Len_A

Thanks, Fatso. Much appreciated.

[davdog]

Look here "FORMER hourly employee" you left to sell fucking vacuum cleaners for kirby! your fat ass didn't want $28 bucks an hour than because the work was to hard or hot, so stop your bullshit about taking $15 now! We earn every penny we make and just because these stump grinders cant run a buisness doesn't mean we should suffer. And what the fuck does ford motor have to do with you losing equity in your mobile home(trailer)? Shut the fuck up and find a kirby site to cry on.

 

 

You tell him Jerzey. If they try to cut your pay you'll just up and quit.

 

right?

 

It's funny how you never hear anyone say that on this board.

Has anyone at any of the D3 ever quit?

[macattack]

The government won't stipulate that the workers have to take pay cuts in exchange for the loans? Are you fucking kidding me? Look up the Chrysler Corporation Loan Guarantee Act of 1979 (Click on it for a link)

 

From the web site About.com:U.S. Politics:

 

 

 

Trust me - public sentiment is to go after both executive compensation and union pay & benefits. Go to any of the car enthusiast web site and all you find is anti-union worker posts, even more so than anti bad management. And someone like me who peaks up for the UAW (thanks, BTW, to all the posters who told me to go fuck myself - thanks loads - my dad was one of the people who fought for your wages and benefits, morons), I get shouted down big time.

 

I ought to learn to keep my big mouth shut - I take it in the ass from everyone, my former union brothers, my fellow car enthusiasts, the know-it-alls on the financial pages. And God help me keep my big trap shut when I get the occassional job interview and some asswipe starts spouting off on how we need to let GM, Ford & Chrysler crash & burn, because, well, damn, don't y'all know there's a healthy Jap-O-nese auto industry down south, y'all. I want to throttle the motherfucker so bad, I'm thinking I'm going to stoke out in the middle of the interview.

 

But hey, that don't matter 'cause you guys forgot what Congress did to Chrysler, 'cause the same dumb asses who told me to fuck off are the ones who forgot just who the hell fought for the high wages that every fucking one of you sweat blood to earn, and that was our parents generation.

 

Well said...many of those who came into the picture with the high wages and benefits already in place just don't get it or are too selfish to care...so in your defense FUCK THEM if that's how they feel.

Edited November 11, 2008 by macattack

[Fatso]

Decisions will be made at the highest level of Government after deliberations made with the highest level of management both Company and UAW.They are much smarter than me and unlike me their opinion matters.Politicians have a responsibility to all of the people living in the USA.Any employee can quit anytime they want,but do you think anyone else cares?Ford wants to get rid of people.Let`s see it through.These hard times can`t last forever.We depend on people buying Ford vehicles,nationally and globally.Greenspan kept interest rates so low for so long the stock market was the only option for cash.This current scenario resembles the Great depression of 1929.Investors have lost fortunes.All this investment paper with no buyers,is worthless.Our future depends on Ford Motor making a profit.The next year or two is gonna be rough for all manufacturers because of the jobs market and credit squeeze.

Edited November 11, 2008 by Fatso

[Fatso]

You tell him Jerzey. If they try to cut your pay you'll just up and quit.

 

right?

 

It's funny how you never hear anyone say that on this board.

Has anyone at any of the D3 ever quit?

Alan Mulally would love to see that!

[lquidspine]

and what will help?Unemployment?A job at 7-11?Just the fact that a person used to be a member of the UAW is a turn-off for many companies.I am on your side!Can`t you see that?I do not negotiate union contracts.How do I know what will happen?Home equity is disappearing,Stock market capitalization has vanished,Vehicle sales are lousy,the banks are tightening credit,maybe it is a good thing in the long run if the UAW is willing to be flexible and compromise.Remember the good old days of profit sharing?Things will turn back around.As my Southerner friends say "One day the suns a-gonna shine"

Ok I was trying to read all the posts before I replied but I can not take anymore.

 

Fact "Here is something to consider:

 

WAGES? " does not take into effect legacy costs, Some of those other companies did not use to employ hundreds of thousands of people . Hell over 100,000 employed in the Rouge itself. The Company did not properly fund retiree pension and heath plans care back when they actually had the greatest amount of workers, and Now they expect 40,000 workers who Have already given up hourly wage increases due to them back in the 03 contract, COLA increases to fund VEBA ( retiree health care plan that takes effect in 2010), Entry Level wages and benefits for new employee's, New JSP language .

 

For fuck sake we are running with half the employees we had just 2 maybe 3 years ago, partly due to technology and partly due to running leaner.

 

Ya we got a Bonus the last few springs but why the fuck is the company giving out bonuses (not contractual bonuses) when we continuously lose money ? short answer is to feed the greedy executives their bonuses without the UAW bitching about it.

 

I pay more for co-pays than I ever have and I wont even get into what the total out of pocket will be for a worst case scenario for retiree's when VEBA takes effect.....Here is a clue around 6,500 a year on a fixed income of 36,000 a year gross( ok so maybe I will get into it).

 

Lets not forget that some of the loses the big 3 are reporting are partially due to buyouts, but those are suppose to be a long term solution not a short term.

 

Ya lets take more concessions and relieve any pressure the big 3 have to lobby the government to rethink unfair trade treaties like NAFTA, CAFTA and so on.

 

 

I am so sick of the live to fight another day mentality Ive been hearing since the first VEBA vote came around, we are losing any bargaining power we still held and losing it fast.

 

How about lets get executive pay in line with our foreign rivals before we even throw in the towel, how about starting there Fatso, I'm pretty fucking sure the UAW and all its members have done their share the last 4 years. All while execs still make over 800,000 more than a year our rivals execs make.

[Triberjay25]

Good, let them cut our pay, take away benefits, etc.

I will not pay my mortgage, pay the credit card companies zero, and drive my car around until someone is hired to repo it. I see the Wall Street Journal wants us auto companies to get zero. Again I say good, let them hang themselves, I doubt any of these so called experts have visited any local bar, arena, shopping mall, etc in Michigan as of late. Most of everything is empty. Our wages create business for everyone. If one or all of the Big Three were to fall, as T.O. would say, "Getcha Popcorn Ready".

[lquidspine]

Maybe now is the time for some give back !

I just don't understand what part of no pay raises since 05, err wait that was rolled into VEBA ( company not funding retiree health care enough to keep up with retirements). COLA rolled into VEBA, Entry Level wages and benefits, GEN/JSP restructuring , outsourcing some of the in plant work. Don't people get that we already Have been giving back?

 

From word of mouth I have respect for you Wiz but I do have to say this.

 

Salaried employees know or should know they are are that salaried and at the mercy of the guys above them (well except the union represented ones). If they wanted union like protections they should have gone as a line worker.

 

The general perception is the Big 3 build crap for quality cars even though recent statistics prove otherwise.

 

Make public what sacrifices have been made by the UAW workers over the last four years in wage increases and benefits, and let out the average salaried wages and benefit over the same period and I would be willing to bet comparative salaried still would come out better off in the long run.

[Len_A]

I just don't understand what part of no pay raises since 05, err wait that was rolled into VEBA ( company not funding retiree health care enough to keep up with retirements). COLA rolled into VEBA, Entry Level wages and benefits, GEN/JSP restructuring , outsourcing some of the in plant work. Don't people get that we already Have been giving back?

 

From word of mouth I have respect for you Wiz but I do have to say this.

 

Salaried employees know or should know they are are that salaried and at the mercy of the guys above them (well except the union represented ones). If they wanted union like protections they should have gone as a line worker.

 

The general perception is the Big 3 build crap for quality cars even though recent statistics prove otherwise.

 

Make public what sacrifices have been made by the UAW workers over the last four years in wage increases and benefits, and let out the average salaried wages and benefit over the same period and I would be willing to bet comparative salaried still would come out better off in the long run.

If you want an idea of how uninformed even educated people are, read all of this thread and see how I took it in the ass trying to defend the Detroit 3 (won't call them the "Big 3" anymore - probably will be the "There ain't nothin' in Detroit 3" pretty soon) - there's six pages of posts, but please read - no matter how I explain the situation, the explanations get ignored, and it's let 'em crash-and-burn: http://www.detailersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4454

[lquidspine]

If you want an idea of how uninformed even educated people are, read all of this thread and see how I took it in the ass trying to defend the Detroit 3 (won't call them the "Big 3" anymore - probably will be the "There ain't nothing' in Detroit 3" pretty soon) - there's six pages of posts, but please read - no matter how I explain the situation, the explanations get ignored, and it's let 'em crash-and-burn: http://www.detailersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4454

Thats part of the problem Len and I for one appreciate you defending what we as American workers have done to try and help the companies.

 

I read all of the posts on that thread, it kind of goes along with what i said when someone gave kudos a few weeks ago about our quality. The sad truth is general perception is in the tank and will take along time to rebuild. I could give a company my only born and it would still not be enough. I want Ford and the other American 3 to survive because thats who feeds my family.

 

But at the same time when is enough ? I have seen promises broke ( because retiree health care was not properly funded) to people like my dad who is now retired. That is who gave me the life I have today people like my dad are the ones that fought for livable wages it sure as hell wasn't me, I was blessed coming into what I have today. Yet again its not enough now the companies( or people ) want to take from the ones that came before me because of their lack of foresight. It sickens me to no end and the quicker some realize that it will never be enough, the quicker we wont get threads like this started by supposed workers who feel we have not given enough.

 

This situation that the Big 3 and the country are in is bigger than us, I hope all ends well but at the same time I'm not waving a white flag, I wont give up and I sure as hell will not offer more than we have already done for the company. We have pretty much over the last 4 years given the company all that they wanted and just like DELPHI once things get better I am sure none of the big 3 will be begging us to take pay raises and huge bonuses. We will once again have to bargain for everything we get and it wont come back right away, things we have already lost will take years if not decades to regain.

Edited November 11, 2008 by lquidspine

[Len_A]

Thats part of the problem Len and I for one appreciate you defending what we as American workers have done to try and help the companies.

 

I read all of the posts on that thread, it kind of goes along with what i said when someone gave kudos a few weeks ago about our quality. The sad truth is general perception is in the tank and will take along time to rebuild. I could give a company my only born and it would still not be enough. I want Ford and the other American 3 to survive because thats who feeds my family.

 

But at the same time when is enough ? I have seen promises broke ( because retiree health care was not properly funded) to people like my dad who is now retired. That is who gave me the life I have today people like my dad are the ones that fought for livable wages it sure as hell wasn't me, I was blessed coming into what I have today. Yet again its not enough now the companies( or people ) want to take from the ones that came before me because of their lack of foresight. It sickens me to no end and the quicker some realize that it will never be enough, the quicker we wont get threads like this started by supposed workers who feel we have not given enough.

 

This situation that the Big 3 and the country are in is bigger than us, I hope all ends well but at the same time I'm not waving a white flag, I wont give up and I sure as hell will not offer more than we have already done for the company. We have pretty much over the last 4 years given the company all that they wanted and just like DELPHI once things get better I am sure none of the big 3 will be begging us to take pay raises and huge bonuses. We will once again have to bargain for everything we get and it wont come back right away, things we have already lost will take years if not decades to regain.

My dad's also an hourly retiree and I'm with you. Don't think that because I see the possible reality of wage concessions that I advocate it. I don't - enough is fucking enough already. But I see the reality of something that, as a matter of both law and prior precedent, the 1979 Chrysler bailout, set that precedent.

 

That said, my agreeing or disagreeing with it isn't going to change the possibility of those loans being tied to. Wagoner & Company already agreed to executive compensation limits last week in the talks with Pelosi & Reid. If they do demand concessions, and enough rank-and-file vote it down, then the industry collapses like a house of cards. That risk is your dad and my dad's generation of hourly autoworkers being proven right - too much outsourcing of parts production was going to put the industry at risk, and now even the transplants may suffer. Chickens are coming home to roost, my friend. They are coming home toroost.

[Dadzee]

Here is something to consider:

 

WAGES?

 

I would love to see projections from the good doctor on the state of wages had the UAW and other unions not been in place.

Unionization helped create the middle class and build this nation over the last century.

 

Before that a middle class was created by slavery.

 

Before that the middle class in Europe was created by the Black Death.

 

Toyota would be paying their workers 14 dollars an hour on 12 hour swing shifts with no bennies, water breaks and the ability to take a shit if you blew the foreman.

 

The big three are fighting with knives when our government through tariff drops, giant tax breaks for transplants, and a refusal to penalise the Asians in any way for currency manipulation have given Toyota, Nissan, et al. guns

 

The entire friggin industry, especially in its infancy was a government subsidised project in Japan.

[No_Fear]

Thats part of the problem Len and I for one appreciate you defending what we as American workers have done to try and help the companies.

 

I read all of the posts on that thread, it kind of goes along with what i said when someone gave kudos a few weeks ago about our quality. The sad truth is general perception is in the tank and will take along time to rebuild. I could give a company my only born and it would still not be enough. I want Ford and the other American 3 to survive because thats who feeds my family.

 

But at the same time when is enough ? I have seen promises broke ( because retiree health care was not properly funded) to people like my dad who is now retired. That is who gave me the life I have today people like my dad are the ones that fought for livable wages it sure as hell wasn't me, I was blessed coming into what I have today. Yet again its not enough now the companies( or people ) want to take from the ones that came before me because of their lack of foresight. It sickens me to no end and the quicker some realize that it will never be enough, the quicker we wont get threads like this started by supposed workers who feel we have not given enough.

 

This situation that the Big 3 and the country are in is bigger than us, I hope all ends well but at the same time I'm not waving a white flag, I wont give up and I sure as hell will not offer more than we have already done for the company. We have pretty much over the last 4 years given the company all that they wanted and just like DELPHI once things get better I am sure none of the big 3 will be begging us to take pay raises and huge bonuses. We will once again have to bargain for everything we get and it wont come back right away, things we have already lost will take years if not decades to regain.

 

Please don't think you aren't being heard. You are correct about many things. One of them being that you should not have to give concessions. That seems to be the mindset of those who didn't have to fight and give their all to win the benefits you now have. The older retirees deserve to have more respect than they have been shown here lately. Now it seems some want to throw them "under the bus." Don't ever assume that some of them aren't having a difficult time having to live on a fixed income during this economic crisis.

 

There hasn't been anything written in stone yet as to a loan or bailout and already some are ready to give up so easily what many have fought for years to achieve. I wouldn't be surprised if President Bush does nothing....after all, he wasn't the "chosen one" to be backed by the UAW so he doesn't really owe you guys anything. The new President elect will probably come through with something, as the UAW now "owns" him.

 

Instead of getting on here and talking about giving up concessions, everyone should be on here talking up your product, because Ford does have a great line of cars and trucks. I went to a dealership yesterday to see about ordering a new Edge early next year. I already have one and can honestly say that I love that vehicle. I have had no problems at all with it and am happy to tell anyone who asks just what a great vehicle it is. My son and a nephew are also getting ready to purchase new Ford vehicles, so I know there are people out there buying.

 

There are many people who come to this board to read only. All the negative chatter you people post on here doesn't help your cause. Get on here and do something positive for yourselves. Can't hurt....might help.

[Twincam Harley]

Len A,

 

If the government requires wage concessions as a part of a baliout/loan program, I will buy you a huge freakin' steak.

 

That said, it won't happen. You can point to 1979 all you want.

 

The "Detroit 3" have wage concessions in their contract already. They just have to get to a point where they can use them.

[Fatso]

The Ford Motor Company has been good to all of us in a lot of ways,too.I opened this topic because it very well may happen.Don`t you see how actually terrible the economy is,globally?No car sales=no jobs.I am for pitching in if need be.Public Relations,Customer Relations,UAW image all these are as important as quality.Marketing is the single most important component of 'OUR' Companies survival{don`t hit me}.Those new F-150 commercials are excellent.Sometimes the commercials are very entertaining but after watching them I am not really sure what is being sold.Hey,times were terrible back around 1979-1980 and profit sharing was developed.One hand ,,,,it,,,washes the other.FAILURE IS NOT AN OPTION.Say,for instance, the UAW and management together make some compromises,the taxpayers are already in,,,so,,,we start a Buy American and help your neighbor advertising campaign?Something on the local dealership level.

Edited November 11, 2008 by Fatso

[CSMJ]

once again BUSH shows true colors

he wants his presious Free Trade Pact with Columbia for his signing a Big 3 bill

one more reason y the GOP will be out of power for years if not decades to come there out of touch with the common people

[Fatso]

once again BUSH shows true colors

he wants his presious Free Trade Pact with Columbia for his signing a Big 3 bill

one more reason y the GOP will be out of power for years if not decades to come there out of touch with the common people

That Free Trade with Colombia arrangement may have to do with the FACT that the C.I.A needs funding and is involved with illegal narcotic sales in the USA.We don`t stand a chance.We are all powerless,insignificant and worthless,except to God.

Edited November 11, 2008 by Fatso

[Len_A]

Len A,

 

If the government requires wage concessions as a part of a baliout/loan program, I will buy you a huge freakin' steak.

 

That said, it won't happen. You can point to 1979 all you want.

 

The "Detroit 3" have wage concessions in their contract already. They just have to get to a point where they can use them.

Then brother, I hope you need to buy me a steak, 'cause I'll buy you a beer. Like I said, I'm not supporting the idea of wage concessions. You guys gave fucking enough already. I'm just seeing things from a different point-of-view - if you checked out the thread I posted a link to, you see the usual anti-union venom. Trust me - Wall Street and the GOP, as well as some Democrats ain't any different.

[Len_A]

once again BUSH shows true colors

he wants his presious Free Trade Pact with Columbia for his signing a Big 3 bill

one more reason y the GOP will be out of power for years if not decades to come there out of touch with the common people

Yea, I heard Keith Crain from Crain Communications (Automotive News) jsut railing against Bush on this one. Bush is a sonovabitch. I regret voting for the bastard in 2000 and I'm glad I didn't vote for him in 2004. This is the GOP's true colors. They just don't get it, the fucking bastards.