Romney: "Let Det. go bankrupt"

[kpc655]

1) It might be enough. Ford is the only company that went to DC and said, "Hey, we might not need this money."

 

2) It takes more courage to keep your mouth shut, sometimes, than it takes to shoot it off. What, exactly would Mulally have accomplished by turning the session into a shouting match? He still needs the votes of those tools to get any loan package approved.

 

Let's hope so. I wouldn't have believed this 6 months ago..but Ford appears to be in the best position. I was in dearborn this afternoon and the positive impact this simple fact is having on morale is definitely positive. There's a pulse...

 

They probably would have further ruined their chances if they were too open with their criticism. The only possibility (albeit remote) would have been to turn popular sentiment by pointing out the hypocritical nature of Gov't policies. I just would have loved to have seen them turn it around on these pompous ass congressman.

 

The democrats are in a bad position on this one. UAW on the one hand...greenies on the other. Tough to please them both.

Edited November 21, 2008 by kpc655

[snooter]

Let's hope so. I wouldn't have believed this 6 months ago..but Ford appears to be in the best position. I was in dearborn this afternoon and the positive impact this simple fact is having on morale is definitely positive. There's a pulse...

 

They probably would have further ruined their chances if they were too open with their criticism. The only possibility (albeit remote) would have been to turn popular sentiment by pointing out the hypocritical nature of Gov't policies. I just would have loved to have seen them turn it around on these pompous ass congressman.

 

The democrats are in a bad position on this one. UAW on the one hand...greenies on the other. Tough to please them both.

 

i just bought a new accord 2 nights ago...great car and i voted with my wallet...no more detroit cars...F150 is still very much in the running for my next truck

[Deanh]

i just bought a new accord 2 nights ago...great car and i voted with my wallet...no more detroit cars...F150 is still very much in the running for my next truck

have two in my tract....not my cup of tea that pseudo Huy-onda styling, coupe is ok, but sedan....eeeek! I personally would have waited for the new fusion, but hey, thats my taste...I really think Ford has a winner with that car, and its ranked tops in reliability AND mileage now......still not sold on the F-150's styling, but it is growing on me...enjoy your new car....TRAITOR!

[Loyalbutconcerned]

So Romney thinks his dad could do the same in this environment. That was the 50's fo God's sakes and it was the current D3 that was kicking their tails. There was no cheap competition from the Asians and no tax incentives for them to come back then eiher. I agree that too little attention has been paid to high gas prices which has choked out consumption and they gave the profiteering oil executives a pass for their big salaries earned gouging the consumers. How did Romney make his money?

[RichardJensen]

Let's hope so. I wouldn't have believed this 6 months ago..but Ford appears to be in the best position. I was in dearborn this afternoon and the positive impact this simple fact is having on morale is definitely positive. There's a pulse...

Well, credit the Fusion/Milan/MKZ, Mustang and Raptor for that as well. All five products are well, pretty much top of the tops.

[snooter]

have two in my tract....not my cup of tea that pseudo Huy-onda styling, coupe is ok, but sedan....eeeek! I personally would have waited for the new fusion, but hey, thats my taste...I really think Ford has a winner with that car, and its ranked tops in reliability AND mileage now......still not sold on the F-150's styling, but it is growing on me...enjoy your new car....TRAITOR!

 

just kidding...i hate jap shit...looking for new truck and getting over the orgasm i had on tuesday night (new stang)....

[FordBuyer]

Jim Cramer said last night on his show, that it's too late for a bailout (bridge loan). That the industry must reorganize in chapter 11, and Chrysler might not make it out the other side.

 

Now before the flames fly, I know Cramer is to put it mildly a bit eccentric (idiot savant), however, he has a keen directional sense of where things are going.

 

I believe the industry can indeed pour $25B down the 'hole', without anything backing up.

 

We are beyond surgery; an amputation might save the patent.

 

 

It's pretty obvious that Chrysler will be sold piecemeal at some point in time after bridge loan is approved. Pelosi has already stated that bankruptcy is not an option and Obama has stated that also. Here in Detroit we hope that Nissan buys sizeable chunk of Chrysler and maintians the Chrylser building in Auburn Hills, MI. Consolidation is inevitable and GM will have to eliminate divisions and UAW will have to accept more concessions. I really don't think blood flowing in the streets is necessary. The auto market could come back quicker than you think. I also wouldn't put it past Obama to offer tax credits in order to jumpstart auto sales.

[RichardJensen]

Yeah, the industry could pour $25B down the hole, and in fact, the whole scattershot nature of this week's hearings sort of made that clear.

 

However, $25B can go a long way toward solving the problems at GM, if it's spent wisely.

 

As far as Chrysler goes---IMO, they don't deserve a dime as long as they're owned by that 'glorified carpetbagger' Steve Feinberg. Let him spend his money on them first. No different than people in nursing homes looking to get on Title 19. Got to spend your own assets before you can get government money.

[FordBuyer]

So Romney thinks his dad could do the same in this environment. That was the 50's fo God's sakes and it was the current D3 that was kicking their tails. There was no cheap competition from the Asians and no tax incentives for them to come back then eiher. I agree that too little attention has been paid to high gas prices which has choked out consumption and they gave the profiteering oil executives a pass for their big salaries earned gouging the consumers. How did Romney make his money?

[/quote/]

 

That Romney is a real two face. During the primaries, he was in MI all the time talking about how he loved the domestics and how he would not let something happen to them. He even won the primary here because of "his great love for MI and its vehicles." He knows damn well that bankruptcy means end of company. Even the constant talk of bankruptcy now has to be hurting domestic sales. November probably won't be pretty. This uncertainty about viabllity does not help sales let alone bankruptcy itself. Romney just ruined any chance of winning MI as possible Republican candidate. Looks to me like Republican Party is turning into Confederate Party. Only the South will be voting for them.

[FordBuyer]

1) It might be enough. Ford is the only company that went to DC and said, "Hey, we might not need this money."

 

2) It takes more courage to keep your mouth shut, sometimes, than it takes to shoot it off. What, exactly would Mulally have accomplished by turning the session into a shouting match? He still needs the votes of those tools to get any loan package approved.

 

Obama has his hands full controlling Pelosi, Reid, and Waxman. They are loose cannons. Now I can see why Obama picked a pit bull as his chief of staff. He will need firepower to deal with the flaming liberals.

[jafo]

1) Right then, Ford didn't have cash. So they borrowed it. From private banks. With collateral. GM now needs to BORROW money from the federal gov't because there is NO money available from the private sector.

 

Yes they need borrow money. Yes the fed can provide that loan. However ford had the forsight to do this when times are better. Right now GM has its back against the wall. However bankruptcy will expedite the closing of dealers. GM is still dealing with dealers from its last brand it killed. This is not just about money, it is about time as well.

 

2) The UAW will almost always agree to buyouts. They will not agree to cutbacks in benefits when the wage/benefit gap has been substantially closed by the last contract.

 

Sure, but since GM has no money and significant excess capacity there needs to be layoffs, not buyouts. Since UAW wont agree to layoffs, the court will have to be involved.

 

Layoffs suck, but they cant be avoided here.

 

3) Where on EARTH did I say a gov't bailout should come with NO STRINGS??????? Again, I take your assertion that you READ what I write here at face value. If you DO read it, it does NOT sink in.

 

I dfd not say you said there were looking for no strings. But I guarantee GM does want strings attached to this loan. And givent he folks that are currently in control of congress, those strings could be quite green lead to expensive products.

 

This is yet another reason to go chap 11, no govt strings attached to restructure.

[RichardJensen]

Yes they need borrow money. Yes the fed can provide that loan. However ford had the forsight to do this when times are better. Right now GM has its back against the wall. However bankruptcy will expedite the closing of dealers. GM is still dealing with dealers from its last brand it killed. This is not just about money, it is about time as well.

 

 

 

Sure, but since GM has no money and significant excess capacity there needs to be layoffs, not buyouts. Since UAW wont agree to layoffs, the court will have to be involved.

 

Layoffs suck, but they cant be avoided here.

 

 

 

I dfd not say you said there were looking for no strings. But I guarantee GM does want strings attached to this loan. And givent he folks that are currently in control of congress, those strings could be quite green lead to expensive products.

 

This is yet another reason to go chap 11, no govt strings attached to restructure.

So it's your idea that thousands of people should get tossed to the curb because Wagoner and Henderson are tools? Doesn't make sense to me. You'd replace Fritz & Rick as part of the bailout, so it's not like you'd be rewarding their idiocy. They're gone.

 

Pfft. Layoffs vs. buyouts, GM ain't getting out of its obligations for free, even with a Ch. 11 filing. Go look at the Delphi mess for proof of that.

 

As far as strings being attached to the loan. The smartest thing congress could do is guarantee loans, but require 3rd party financiers (e.g. the same outfits that financed Ford).

Edited November 22, 2008 by RichardJensen

[Versa-Tech]

So it's your idea that thousands of people should get tossed to the curb because Wagoner and Hendricks are tools? Doesn't make sense to me. You'd replace Fritz & Rick as part of the bailout, so it's not like you'd be rewarding their idiocy. They're gone.

 

Pfft. Layoffs vs. buyouts, GM ain't getting out of its obligations for free, even with a Ch. 11 filing. Go look at the Delphi mess for proof of that.

 

As far as strings being attached to the loan. The smartest thing congress could do is guarantee loans, but require 3rd party financiers (e.g. the same outfits that financed Ford).

AGREED.

[jafo]

So it's your idea that thousands of people should get tossed to the curb because Wagoner and Hendricks are tools? Doesn't make sense to me. You'd replace Fritz & Rick as part of the bailout, so it's not like you'd be rewarding their idiocy. They're gone.

 

No matter what happens, bailout or not, al ot of people are going to get tossed to the curb.

 

Pfft. Layoffs vs. buyouts, GM ain't getting out of its obligations for free, even with a Ch. 11 filing. Go look at the Delphi mess for proof of that.

 

I did not say they should be out for free. They should get resonable severance packaged and not 100k buyouts.

 

 

As far as strings being attached to the loan. The smartest thing congress could do is guarantee loans, but require 3rd party financiers (e.g. the same outfits that financed Ford).

 

Smart and congress....good luck with that.

[Versa-Tech]

Smart and congress....good luck with that.

[RichardJensen]

No matter what happens, bailout or not, al ot of people are going to get tossed to the curb.

 

 

 

I did not say they should be out for free. They should get resonable severance packaged and not 100k buyouts.

 

 

 

 

Smart and congress....good luck with that.

$100k is, in the end, a pretty reasonable price to pay. It's less than 2 years worth of related expenses for these employees, it generally bumps them into the AMT range, which means they get maybe a lump sum payment in the $75-80k range, and that's not exactly chicken scratch, but it's hardly an unreasonable amount for "okay, pack up your things and move, you don't have a job here anymore."

 

 

 

 

The big difference is Ford's management has, since HFII, been 'programmed' to work WITH union reps, so Ford, instead of offering GM's one size fits all buyout package, offered an array of packages that included, basically, a free college education (living expenses plus tuition for 4 years, provided proof of enrollment was furnished).

 

Now, you may say, "they don't deserve that...", but there you're getting into a gray area, should Ford say, "you don't have a job here, tough monkey nuggets, go try and find a skilled job somewhere else with no education?"

 

Look at 8A4RE--he was working (IIRC) at Chicago Assembly--and took the educational buyout. I'd assume he's either in tech school or college getting training for a new career.

 

----

 

Point being:

 

These were options that WERE and STILL ARE open to GM. If GM wants to stop treating the UAW as 'the enemy within' they can get a lot of what they want without resorting to Ch. 11.

 

And if they cannot get these sorts of moves done short of Ch. 11, they can get bridge funding for these moves (if they need it) because it should be obvious to even the most tenured of senators that hey--they've been working at it instead of playing "lets pretend we'll have 40% of the market again......" along with "lets pretend that union labor doesn't do jack squat for us", etc.

Edited November 22, 2008 by RichardJensen

[Versa-Tech]

$100k is, in the end, a pretty reasonable price to pay. It's less than 2 years worth of related expenses for these employees, it generally bumps them into the AMT range, which means they get maybe a lump sum payment in the $75-80k range, and that's not exactly chicken scratch, but it's hardly an unreasonable amount for "okay, pack up your things and move, you don't have a job here anymore."

 

 

 

 

The big difference is Ford's management has, since HFII, been 'programmed' to work WITH union reps, so Ford, instead of offering GM's one size fits all buyout package, offered an array of packages that included, basically, a free college education (living expenses plus tuition for 4 years, provided proof of enrollment was furnished).

 

Now, you may say, "they don't deserve that...", but there you're getting into a gray area, should Ford say, "you don't have a job here, tough monkey nuggets, go try and find a skilled job somewhere else with no education?"

 

Look at 8A4RE--he was working (IIRC) at Chicago Assembly--and took the educational buyout. I'd assume he's either in tech school or college getting training for a new career.

 

----

 

Point being:

 

These were options that WERE and STILL ARE open to GM. If GM wants to stop treating the UAW as 'the enemy within' they can get a lot of what they want without resorting to Ch. 11.

 

And if they cannot get these sorts of moves done short of Ch. 11, they can get bridge funding for these moves (if they need it) because it should be obvious to even the most tenured of senators that hey--they've been working at it instead of playing "lets pretend we'll have 40% of the market again......" along with "lets pretend that union labor doesn't do jack squat for us", etc.

This man has his head on straight...

[jpd80]

Jafo seems to think the inevitibility of GM and others going broke is reason enough not to fund but the

funding is more about controlled downsizing or exit strategy for suppliers - Not GM, Chrysler or Ford.

It is not feasible to give suppliers funding directly but you can support the companies above them.

By doing that you enable innocent bystanders time to get out before they lose everything.

Edited November 22, 2008 by jpd80

[jafo]

$100k is, in the end, a pretty reasonable price to pay. It's less than 2 years worth of related expenses for these employees, it generally bumps them into the AMT range, which means they get maybe a lump sum payment in the $75-80k range, and that's not exactly chicken scratch, but it's hardly an unreasonable amount for "okay, pack up your things and move, you don't have a job here anymore."

 

I wold have to disagree. Most worker dont get that kind of severance. I know I would only get 4 weeks severance if I was laid off tomorrow. Sorry most people find these kind of packaged stupid when a company is about to go bankrupt.

 

 

Now, you may say, "they don't deserve that...", but there you're getting into a gray area, should Ford say, "you don't have a job here, tough monkey nuggets, go try and find a skilled job somewhere else with no education?"

 

It is tough. It happens everywhere, even outside out of Detroit. It is not any company's responsibility that its employees have a back up employment plan. Also given that head count has been shrinking at the big 3 for the last couple of decades, employees really should have been planning ahead.

 

 

Point being:

 

These were options that WERE and STILL ARE open to GM. If GM wants to stop treating the UAW as 'the enemy within' they can get a lot of what they want without resorting to Ch. 11.

 

point being, 100k buyouts is why the general public sees UAW as nothing more than as a parasite trying to bleed the big 3 dry.

[RichardJensen]

I wold have to disagree. Most worker dont get that kind of severance. I know I would only get 4 weeks severance if I was laid off tomorrow. Sorry most people find these kind of packaged stupid when a company is about to go bankrupt.

 

 

 

 

It is tough. It happens everywhere, even outside out of Detroit. It is not any company's responsibility that its employees have a back up employment plan. Also given that head count has been shrinking at the big 3 for the last couple of decades, employees really should have been planning ahead.

 

 

 

 

point being, 100k buyouts is why the general public sees UAW as nothing more than as a parasite trying to bleed the big 3 dry.

Yeah, but you don't understand. Assembly line work is grueling and it does not translate.

 

It's all fine and well to say, "Well, I would only get 4 weeks pay..."

 

Well, guess what? You've probably got a resume that works in some other field.

 

What happens if you've been working on an assembly line for 15 years. What are you qualified to do? Assembly line work. And so then what? You go find assembly line work somewhere else? Sorry, no one's hiring.

 

 

I don't begrudge these guys their severance packages because their whole life changes when they lose their factory job.

 

You lose a white collar job as a sysadmin and you can get a job as a sysadmin (or something similar) any of a number of other places.

 

--

 

And to say, in effect, "well, you should've known better" is cruel, IMO. I don't want to be the kind of person that turns back from providing assistance to someone who's got to totally change the way they approach work and life--and that, for an assembly line worker--is exactly what happens when you have to switch to any other career.

 

It is a MAJOR life change. It's not like going from working at Chase Manhattan to working at Wells Fargo. It's more like going from being in the military to civilian life. It's a shock, and those that don't understand it should try it out.

[jafo]

Yeah, but you don't understand. Assembly line work is grueling and it does not translate.

 

It's all fine and well to say, "Well, I would only get 4 weeks pay..."

 

Well, guess what? You've probably got a resume that works in some other field.

 

What happens if you've been working on an assembly line for 15 years. What are you qualified to do? Assembly line work. And so then what? You go find assembly line work somewhere else? Sorry, no one's hiring.

 

 

And if they had not spent the last 15 years working in a environment of a contracting workforce, I would have far more sympathy. After 15 years, they should know they need to gain a new skill before they get layed off as well.

 

I don't begrudge these guys their severance packages because their whole life changes when they lose their factory job.

 

You lose a white collar job as a sysadmin and you can get a job as a sysadmin (or something similar) any of a number of other places.

 

--

 

And if you go 15 years as a sysadmin without updating your skillset, you are going to have a hard time finding a job as well.

 

And to say, in effect, "well, you should've known better" is cruel, IMO. I don't want to be the kind of person that turns back from providing assistance to someone who's got to totally change the way they approach work and life--and that, for an assembly line worker--is exactly what happens when you have to switch to any other career.

 

It is a MAJOR life change. It's not like going from working at Chase Manhattan to working at Wells Fargo. It's more like going from being in the military to civilian life. It's a shock, and those that don't understand it should try it out.

 

 

I am not trying to be cruel or insensitive as well, but this is the harsh reality. Those that have worked in this industry for the last 15 years should have been better prepared for t his day. GM should do all it can for those that it has to let go, but giving 100k to everyone it lets go when it cant its own bills is stupid. If you forces such a severence package, I think we will see all UAW employees at GM getting 100% of nothing.

[RichardJensen]

And if they had not spent the last 15 years working in a environment of a contracting workforce, I would have far more sympathy. After 15 years, they should know they need to gain a new skill before they get layed off as well.

 

 

 

And if you go 15 years as a sysadmin without updating your skillset, you are going to have a hard time finding a job as well.

 

 

 

 

I am not trying to be cruel or insensitive as well, but this is the harsh reality. Those that have worked in this industry for the last 15 years should have been better prepared for t his day. GM should do all it can for those that it has to let go, but giving 100k to everyone it lets go when it cant its own bills is stupid. If you forces such a severence package, I think we will see all UAW employees at GM getting 100% of nothing.

Well, it's like this: You work 40+ hours a week--and odd hours, and you are exceptionally limited in work flexibility. It makes it extremely difficult to take extra classes without compromising family time.

 

Apart from the jobs bank, that job is, basically, your life. Don't say anything about it until you walk a mile in those shoes. My mom's family worked for GM/Delphi--her brother, father, and brother-in-law. The last two were blue-collar/UAW. Don't say what they 'should've' been doing unless you've been there, done that, yourself.

 

Further, that $100k+ payment recoups itself in a matter of a few years. Paying an up front cost to reduce 'carried' costs is common sense--and providing workers a leg-up to finance their own business or get an education makes about as much sense as old Henry's $5 day ( http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/myfox/pages/Ho...mp;pageId=1.1.1 , http://blog.mlive.com/statewidebusinesssto...cide_to_st.html ). You give departing workers a leg-up and you've retained their loyalty. And their family's loyalty.

 

Kick 'em to the curb and you've lost their business.

[jafo]

Well, it's like this: You work 40+ hours a week--and odd hours, and you are exceptionally limited in work flexibility. It makes it extremely difficult to take extra classes without compromising family time.

 

It is called sacrifice. I have worked 40+ hours and gone to school at night. It can be done, it just takes more time. And given the number of online classes that have become available over the last several years, there is even less excuse. Sometimes you just have to suck it up and do what has to be done.

Apart from the jobs bank, that job is, basically, your life. Don't say anything about it until you walk a mile in those shoes. My mom's family worked for GM/Delphi--her brother, father, and brother-in-law. The last two were blue-collar/UAW. Don't say what they 'should've' been doing unless you've been there, done that, yourself.

 

You act as if no one else has ever had such hardships. I may not have not walked a mile in your shoes, but trust me I have done a lot walking in shoes. You are not in anyway unique because of your job.

 

 

Further, that $100k+ payment recoups itself in a matter of a few years. Paying an up front cost to reduce 'carried' costs is common sense--and providing workers a leg-up to finance their own business or get an education makes about as much sense as old Henry's $5 day ( http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/myfox/pages/Ho...mp;pageId=1.1.1 , http://blog.mlive.com/statewidebusinesssto...cide_to_st.html ). You give departing workers a leg-up and you've retained their loyalty. And their family's loyalty.

 

Kick 'em to the curb and you've lost their business.

 

Sure it makes sense, but it only makes sense if you have the the money to do so. And it appears anything less than 100k severance is being kicked to the curb.

 

And the car market is far larger than employees and their families.

[RichardJensen]

It is called sacrifice. I have worked 40+ hours and gone to school at night. It can be done, it just takes more time. And given the number of online classes that have become available over the last several years, there is even less excuse. Sometimes you just have to suck it up and do what has to be done.

 

 

You act as if no one else has ever had such hardships. I may not have not walked a mile in your shoes, but trust me I have done a lot walking in shoes. You are not in anyway unique because of your job.

 

 

 

 

Sure it makes sense, but it only makes sense if you have the the money to do so. And it appears anything less than 100k severance is being kicked to the curb.

 

And the car market is far larger than employees and their families.

Geez. Way to not read what I wrote. Did I say >I< worked at an assembly plant? No. But I know that it shortened the lives of my uncle and grandfather. Sheesh.

 

Furthermore, I wouldn't begrudge severance packages provided to you by your employer in the event that your job got terminated. I mean, if you were basically looking at having to shift careers and move (which most of these people are) getting a year's pay (which, after taxes is about what these people are getting) in order to smooth that transition would hardly seem excessive.

 

Finally, consider the costs involved in filing bankruptcy vs. paying severance. Does anyone think that filing Ch. 11 will be 'free'? If GM paid $150k to 20,000 blue collar employees, that would cost them $3B. Do you think the total cost of bankruptcy would be LESS than $3B?

[LSFan00]

$100K severance package is reasonable because the poor guy works hard on an assembly line, which makes his skill set not marketable? Cry me a river, frenchman.

 

Welcome to the world of "at will" employment. They should be given 2-4 weeks severance and find a job that pays less ASAP. Hell, they should have been looking for the past year or two minimum, ANYWAY! That these poor souls didn't go to school, or get other marketable skills is simply not the employer or taxpayers fault. Thanks for your time, I hear VW may be hiring in Tenn. shortly.

 

That these UAW/CCCP jobs don't come with 1-2 year severance packages is a market goal; we need hourly line working positions to be LESS attractive to the naturally unambitious than, say, a more "marketable" skill. They should be free to quit any day, and they should be capable of being fired any day also. AT WILL. Want security? Take a civil service job or start/run your own business doing something people need/want.

 

Feeling sorry for GM line workers to me is a lot like pitying the folks in NO that both lived right next to the levees and refused to evacuate. Sure, nice little house there. Did you notice that ocean/lake sitting over your house for the past 30 years? It's gonna get breached/collapse eventually.